What midwestern city seems most “urban” to you (except Chicago)?

[Buckeye Native 001]

"Baseline Midwest"?

[MPLS_Const_Watch]

The divide between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is very interesting considering their proximity.

I've always felt that you can attribute a lot about the architecture and built form of an older "urban" (including some pretty small towns with cores that were historically urban in character) area based on the transportation networks that drove its growth. Here in Minnesota, you can pretty easily sort based on whether their lineage is as a river town, a great lakes town, or a railroad town. The towns along the Mississippi along the Minnesota/Wisconsin border-- Red Wing, Wabasha, Winona, have a lot in common with the river towns further south-- Prairie Du Chein, Dubuque, and down into Missouri and I think draw a pretty clear lineage to St. Louis, which itself connects to New Orleans, Memphis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh. In Duluth, I see a greater connection to Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit. I think you see the same with the older mining towns in the UP. While there might not be cultural ties between people in these places anymore as time has passed, I think these transportation corridors-- either up and down the Mississippi and Ohio, or across the Lakes, played a bigger role in creating connections between people and businesses and spreading ideas than is immediately obvious to us today where information doesn't have much relationship to physical transportation networks or proximity anymore.

I think in this model Pittsburgh is still somewhat unique and doesn't fall into the river city cultural camp as clearly as St. Louis or Cincinnati (I think primarily due to its age and ties to the East Coast that are not shared by other cities on the Ohio), but if you were to make only two buckets, I think it's pretty clear that Cleveland ends up in the Lakes cultural bucket and Pittsburgh in the Rivers.

Other cities are a bit of a hybrid under this model too. Chicago, obviously located on the Lakes, is more defined by its railroads and exerted its influence westward primarily via places that were connected by rail. Minneapolis and St. Paul likewise are obviously on the Mississippi but are more culturally and economically tied to the railroads. For Minneapolis the role of the Mississippi in the city's development is primarily hydropower, not riverboat transport.

It's interesting to think about what ties places together as regions, and how those factors have changed over the years. Looking at historic ties, evidenced in something like vernacular architecture, and looking at cultural and political ties between people who are alive today can sometimes give different results.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by MPLS_Const_Watch

The divide between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is very interesting considering their proximity.

I've always felt that you can attribute a lot about the architecture and built form of an older "urban" (including some pretty small towns with cores that were historically urban in character) area based on the transportation networks that drove its growth. Here in Minnesota, you can pretty easily sort based on whether their lineage is as a river town, a great lakes town, or a railroad town. The towns along the Mississippi along the Minnesota/Wisconsin border-- Red Wing, Wabasha, Winona, have a lot in common with the river towns further south-- Prairie Du Chein, Dubuque, and down into Missouri and I think draw a pretty clear lineage to St. Louis, which itself connects to New Orleans, Memphis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh. In Duluth, I see a greater connection to Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit. I think you see the same with the older mining towns in the UP. While there might not be cultural ties between people in these places anymore as time has passed, I think these transportation corridors-- either up and down the Mississippi and Ohio, or across the Lakes, played a bigger role in creating connections between people and businesses and spreading ideas than is immediately obvious to us today where information doesn't have much relationship to physical transportation networks or proximity anymore.

I think in this model Pittsburgh is still somewhat unique and doesn't fall into the river city cultural camp as clearly as St. Louis or Cincinnati (I think primarily due to its age and ties to the East Coast that are not shared by other cities on the Ohio), but if you were to make only two buckets, I think it's pretty clear that Cleveland ends up in the Lakes cultural bucket and Pittsburgh in the Rivers.

Other cities are a bit of a hybrid under this model too. Chicago, obviously located on the Lakes, is more defined by its railroads and exerted its influence westward primarily via places that were connected by rail. Minneapolis and St. Paul likewise are obviously on the Mississippi but are more culturally and economically tied to the railroads. For Minneapolis the role of the Mississippi in the city's development is primarily hydropower, not riverboat transport.

It's interesting to think about what ties places together as regions, and how those factors have changed over the years. Looking at historic ties, evidenced in something like vernacular architecture, and looking at cultural and political ties between people who are alive today can sometimes give different results.

Pittsburgh is an interesting case study here insofar its growth was driven by railroads indirectly via steel, and so it in many ways is as much a railroad town as it is a river city.

I would also note that internal transportation networks are just as important for a city’s development as external networks. Chicago, for instance, benefits from a heavy rail network early on whereas the rest had streetcar networks that didn’t stand the test of political or economic time.

[KevinFromTexas]

Humans need to organize stuff. To not do so causes confusion. Imagine having to reference a place where "the people sound funny." No one would know what place you were talking about since there are many places where the people sound funny.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by mhays

If "Midwest" is a foolish term than so are "West," "West Coast," "East Coast," "South," and so on. Every big catchall is just a catchall. But we need catchalls for a variety of reasons.

I think people tend to be confused because "the South" is both a region of the country and a culture. Yes, there are large swathes of the urban South which are no longer "culturally southern" but historically there was little difference. So people want there to be "culturally Northeastern," "Culturally Midwestern" etc. But ultimately there's just a "Northern" or "non-Southern" culture which has all sorts of different sorts of local variations.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I think people tend to be confused because "the South" is both a region of the country and a culture. Yes, there are large swathes of the urban South which are no longer "culturally southern" but historically there was little difference. So people want there to be "culturally Northeastern," "Culturally Midwestern" etc. But ultimately there's just a "Northern" or "non-Southern" culture which has all sorts of different sorts of local variations.

The South is America's largest and most diverse region. Not all the South is the same at all.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

8 billion percent agreed!

But we have a lot of super-special snowflakes who live in so many super-special snowflake towns that could never ever in a million years be pigeonholed into being anything other than their 100% uniquely glorious individual selves.

People on SSP are often stupid. They'll write 9 goddamn paragraphs about how Cincinnati is so completely different from Minneapolis in every single last possible conceivable way, as though Tokyo was being compared with the 7th moon of Neptune.



Shit ain't quite that fucking different, folks.

...what the hell is this about?

I've seen you argue about minutiae on this site many times. I think talking about the cultural and built form differences that exist between regions is far more interesting than talking about the specifics of Great Lakes ships or individual census tract densities or whatever else you geek out on. And I don't see anyone calling your posts stupid...

If you're not interested in the topic, just don't read the thread.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

In terms of cultural institutions, Detroit has to be the second in the Midwest behind Chicago. Cleveland's probably a solid third, though.

ehh no, having a lot of experience visiting both, at worst cle and detroit are a tie for that criteria. i mean whats not to like about the institute and motown museum and the cle museum of art and rrhof? but industrial/boomer era cultural legacies aside, cuyahoga county residents remain one of the largest local public funders of the arts in the nation. also even just this year the local emerald necklace parks are ranked best in the nation for 2021 and the city libraries were one of the winners the year before.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by edale

If you're not interested in the topic, just don't read the thread.

Given the fact that I have more posts in this thread than any other forumer, I think it's quite safe to say that I am very interested in the topic.

I just grow tired of the whole "there's really no such thing as the Midwest, all the cities are too different" storyline. That's an opinion that I obviously disagree with very strongly.

Yes, of course there are differences between different cities, but when we compare St. Louis to Cleveland, there's still some Midwest generalities shared between them even though the houses look different; they're not as earth-shatteringly divergent from each other like, say, Stockholm and Dhaka.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

ehh no, having a lot of experience visiting both, at worst cle and detroit are a tie for that criteria. i mean whats not to like about the institute and motown museum and the cle museum of art and rrhof? but industrial/boomer era cultural legacies aside, cuyahoga county residents remain one of the largest local public funders of the arts in the nation. also even just this year the local emerald necklace parks are ranked best in the nation for 2021 and the city libraries were one of the winners the year before.

The main art museums seems like a tie but Cleveland has nothing like the Henry Ford museum, or Cranbrook just off the top of my head. And Motown museum is about to undergo a massive expansion becoming a proper institution. Detroit has giant legacy libraries as well, and a great orchestra. Very well funded too. https://www.freep.com/story/entertai...ps/8825647002/

Cleveland's art museum is nowhere near downtown either, it's in an autocentric culture campus. So I don't see how that makes downtown Cleveland special. Pretty much agree Cleveland is solid third.

[edale]

Originally Posted by The North One

The main art museums seems like a tie but Cleveland has nothing like the Henry Ford museum, or Cranbrook just off the top of my head. And Motown museum is about to undergo a massive expansion becoming a proper institution. Detroit has giant legacy libraries as well, and a great orchestra. Very well funded too. https://www.freep.com/story/entertai...ps/8825647002/

Cleveland's art museum is nowhere near downtown either, it's in an autocentric culture campus. So I don't see how that makes downtown Cleveland special. Pretty much agree Cleveland is solid third.

I think most people would say Cleveland has the better art museum and orchestra compared to Detroit's. University Circle is Cleveland's 'second downtown', and describing it as autocentric is very strange considering it's an old neighborhood served by both BRT and the Red Line. In fact, when I first visited the Cleveland Art Museum, I got there by taking the Rapid from downtown.

University Circle also has the Contemporary Arts Museum, Case Western University, Natural History Museum, Western Reserve/Cle History Museum, Severence Hall where the orchestra plays...it's a huge cultural center. I can't think of any match for it in Detroit. It also gets bonus points for having the super cute Little Italy right next door, and again, two Rapid stations.

Really, most Midwestern cities punch far above their weight when it comes to arts and museums. In addition to Detroit and Cleveland, Cincinnati, MSP, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Indianapolis (plus the border cities of Pittsburgh and Buffalo) all have great museums. Columbus is kind of the odd one out here. They have a good children's museum (as does Indy), and some smaller art museums (Wexner Center, Pizzuti Collection, Columbus Museum of Art), but nothing that compares to the others I just mentioned.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by The North One

The main art museums seems like a tie but Cleveland has nothing like the Henry Ford museum, or Cranbrook just off the top of my head. And Motown museum is about to undergo a massive expansion becoming a proper institution. Detroit has giant legacy libraries as well, and a great orchestra. Very well funded too. https://www.freep.com/story/entertai...ps/8825647002/

I'd add the Michigan Science Center and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History. Then there are a few second rate museums/attractions like the Belle Isle Aquarium, Detroit Historical Museum, Ford Piquette Factory, etc.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by The North One

The main art museums seems like a tie but Cleveland has nothing like the Henry Ford museum, or Cranbrook just off the top of my head. .

nope. it does. cle has a nice auto museum too in crawford and also moca. just of the top of my head.

Originally Posted by The North One

Cleveland's art museum is nowhere near downtown either, it's in an autocentric culture campus.

are you seriously trying to imply the cle art museum location is somehow less attractive than the detroit setting? obviously you are google warrioring here and have not been to both. you need to visit university circle and the cle art museum some day guy. well connected by brt and the rapid rail. be sure to have some cassata cake from corbos for me on your apres stroll in little italy. you are formally invited!

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

Really, most Midwestern cities punch far above their weight when it comes to arts and museums. In addition to Detroit and Cleveland, Cincinnati, MSP, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Indianapolis (plus the border cities of Pittsburgh and Buffalo) all have great museums. Columbus is kind of the odd one out here. They have a good children's museum (as does Indy), and some smaller art museums (Wexner Center, Pizzuti Collection, Columbus Museum of Art), but nothing that compares to the others I just mentioned.

The problem is that young people don't seem to care at all about the arts. The phones have destroyed everything. I think people are so addicted to the blue glow of their screens that they have a hard time looking at anything that doesn't glow.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The problem is that young people don't seem to care at all about the arts. The phones have destroyed everything. I think people are so addicted to the blue glow of their screens that they have a hard time looking at anything that doesn't glow.

i know what you mean, but post pandemic now, umm, sorta, there are more art galleries popping up than ever around nyc. humbler than previously and lots of glowy work reflecting all that.

of course, broadly speaking it remains to be seen what sells and how long this pent energy from being cooped up lasts.

i would imagine there has to be at least rumblings of that kind of thing across the midlands?

[The North One]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

nope. it does. cle has a nice auto museum too in crawford and also moca. just of the top of my head.

No you really don't, there is no museum in the United States like Henry Ford even excluding Greenfield village. It's not just an auto musuem LMAO, you clearly haven't been. You don't know what you're talking about.

are you seriously trying to imply the cle art museum location is somehow less attractive than the detroit setting?

Uh yes, 100%. Without a doubt. DIA is in the middle of Midtown in a very walkable setting. Cleveland Museum is the opposite.

[mrnyc]

^ it is the opposite, its in the old second downtown, but you are wrong it is walkable and its setting is very attractive.

Originally Posted by The North One

No you really don't, there is no museum in the United States like Henry Ford even excluding Greenfield village. It's not just an auto musuem LMAO, you clearly haven't been. You don't know what you're talking about.

yes it is much more.

i have been several times.

as a child.

but not as a young adult living nearby for 8 yrs.

now instead of editing your remarks -- anything else you need to know? you are wasting time -- go get yourself to cleveland boddy boy!

[The North One]

Originally Posted by edale

I think most people would say Cleveland has the better art museum and orchestra compared to Detroit's. University Circle is Cleveland's 'second downtown', and describing it as autocentric is very strange considering it's an old neighborhood served by both BRT and the Red Line. In fact, when I first visited the Cleveland Art Museum, I got there by taking the Rapid from downtown.

I don't think anybody outside of Ohio would say that because they likely aren't even aware Cleveland has an Orchestra or Museum. They're ranked pretty similarly, neck and neck basically so I'll leave it at that.

In what world is this not autocentric? AHAHAHHAH

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5045...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5086...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5116...7i16384!8i8192

I don't think that's strange, it's objectivity what it is.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

yes it is much more.

i have been several times.

as a child.

but not as a young adult living nearby for 8 yrs.

now anything else you need to know? you are wasting time -- go get yourself to cleveland boddy boy!

You need to stop acting strange lol. Ohioans please get a grip.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by The North One

You need to stop acting strange lol. Ohioans please get a grip.

wrong again. being that you are by far the most constantly negative poster on ssp its you who are strange.