PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown III

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Due to the presence of the P1, it's probably fairly simple to shop at say the Giant Eagle on Centre Ave, or the East Liberty Target.



I dunno. The last grocery store in the Hill District failed miserably. Part of the issue is the South Side Giant Eagle effectively functions as the Hill District grocery store, with the Port Authority even having most of the local Hill District bus lines terminate at that store. As a result it's fairly convenient for residents without cars to rely upon that store. Thus I think unless a Lower Hill grocery was really competitive on price and offered superior selection, it really wouldn't be widely used by Hill District residents.

Yeah, I know a couple and another friend who used to take the bus to do just that, along with Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods, etc. They say they hate the whole process though... too long of a round trip, too many bags on the bus, just too much of a hassle to do frequently.

I think there were a host of issues with the owner of the plaza and the store owner, which contributed to its failing though. Poor selection and jacked-up prices was one thing I heard many people complaining about regarding the store.

I was more referring to new residential development in the Lower Hill, combined with downtown’s and Strip’s rapidly increasing residential population, as justification for siting a new supermarket there; not relying much at all on existing Hill District population as contributing to the customer base... that’s just a very difficult proposition for a large market to make the numbers work relying at all on a population which simply isn’t going to pad one’s slim margins in that business.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I was more referring to new residential development in the Lower Hill, combined with downtown’s and Strip’s rapidly increasing residential population, as justification for siting a new supermarket there; not relying much at all on existing Hill District population as contributing to the customer base... that’s just a very difficult proposition for a large market to make the numbers work relying at all on a population which simply isn’t going to pay one’s slim margins in that business.

While I have high hopes for the Lower Hill eventually, I just don't think it's that well-sited to be convenient for regular shopping runs for Greater Downtown.

Most downtown residents probably lack cars, and get around largely on foot. From most sections of Downtown, even the base of the Lower Hill is a 15-25 minute walk away, which places it outside of the typical pedestrian convenience walkshed. There's also no rapid transit to the Lower Hill (though I guess you could get off at Steel Plaza and walk around 10 minutes.

It's worse from the Strip, as there's literally no connections with the Hill District at all. Not even a set of public stairs. I think some sort of pedestrian "skyway" from Penn Station to the Lower Hill (maybe a gondola?) would be a great idea, but I've not even heard of that being suggested.

The Lower Hill is better set up to serve Uptown, TBH. The megablock that PPG Paints Arena is sited on is a pedestrian impediment, but I'm pretty sure you could cut through the parking garage on foot to get from Magee Street to Fullerton if you really wanted to.

[eschaton]

8/13 ZBA is now fully online. Items of interest:

1. A planned new brewery in Hazlewood. The structure in question is a historic four-story industrial building in the "Scotch Bottom" section of Hazelwood (the flat area west of the railroad tracks). The building was in the past a brewery. The plan is actually more to restore the building and offer it out to rent to up to three different local brewers to operate on site. This may be the reason they went with the unimaginative name "Hazelwood Brewery" - though it also appears the name may have been associated with the site in the past. There's some fairly detailed renderings here, and a lot of business plan information. It's worth a skim at least.

2. Three infill townhouses on 54th Street in Upper Lawrenceville. Design is contemporary, and a bit bland, but not the worst I've ever seen. Seems they will knock down this home to make way for them, but it's not a huge loss.

3. More info on the proposed Manchester mosque. I am a bit confused, because if you scroll to the end there are (crude) renderings, but these are very different than the August 5th review by HRC. The massing appears identical, but where the HRC presentation showed a tan brick structure with a green dome, this shows a largely grey and white structure with red accents, which apparently only has brick on the foundation. The ZBA rendering seems to be cruder (less people in the shot, lower resolution, etc) so I'm going to hope that they just submitted an older version for purposes of illustration, but that the HRC version is more accurate to what it will look like.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

While I have high hopes for the Lower Hill eventually, I just don't think it's that well-sited to be convenient for regular shopping runs for Greater Downtown.

Most downtown residents probably lack cars, and get around largely on foot. From most sections of Downtown, even the base of the Lower Hill is a 15-25 minute walk away, which places it outside of the typical pedestrian convenience walkshed. There's also no rapid transit to the Lower Hill (though I guess you could get off at Steel Plaza and walk around 10 minutes.

It's worse from the Strip, as there's literally no connections with the Hill District at all. Not even a set of public stairs. I think some sort of pedestrian "skyway" from Penn Station to the Lower Hill (maybe a gondola?) would be a great idea, but I've not even heard of that being suggested.

The Lower Hill is better set up to serve Uptown, TBH. The megablock that PPG Paints Arena is sited on is a pedestrian impediment, but I'm pretty sure you could cut through the parking garage on foot to get from Magee Street to Fullerton if you really wanted to.

I would be surprised to learn that most downtown residents lack cars. I kinda doubt that’s the case. Not suggesting that those residents would necessarily be likely to drive to potential retail amenities in the lower Hill, but it would be an option for the majority of downtown, Strip, uptown, north shore/side residents. If the Penguins development truly comes to fruition, I think it will redefine what we think of as “downtown”, with the lower hill serving as a hub for 24/7 activity, offering “urban lite” amenities like an actual supermarket with ample parking. Done right, residents of a greater downtown area would be much more likely to patronize a supermarket here than they would in East Liberty. I agree on the Strip access vs. the Uptown access, but I see them both as “downtown living”. I think the whole antiquated notion of Uptown and the lower Strip as being separate neighborhoods from downtown will continue to erode as Pittsburgh reinvigorates/redevelops it’s central core.

And I think we can all be a bit naive about what one of the indirect and unspoken purposes of the civic arena site redevelopment is... and that is to also radically alter the Hill District in total... and not in a “community benefits” type of situation.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I would be surprised to learn that most downtown residents lack cars. I kinda doubt that’s the case.

Keep in mind that a large proportion (albeit a decreasing percentage) of downtown residents are actually Point Park University students, either in the dorms or in "off-campus housing." And there's also the SRO buildings and he remaining affordable ones like the Roosevelt Arms.

Considering newer buildings (mostly conversions) my general understanding is while garage leases come included with most condo units (excepting maybe Gateway Towers...mostly old people live there though) there have been essentially zero structured parking units added anywhere to account for things like PMC Property's various apartment conversion projects. If everyone in buildings like The Clark and the Alcoa Building were bringing cars, they would have displaced all of the commuters from structured parking over the last decade - but there hasn't been solid evidence of this.

Plus there's just the fact that...if you own a car, and you're not rich, why bother living downtown at all? You could find a nice urban neighborhood with off-street parking included somewhere else at a similar price point, with no hassle of having to finagle a leased spot separately.

Originally Posted by pj3000

And I think we can all be a bit naive about what one of the indirect and unspoken purposes of the civic arena site redevelopment is... and that is to also radically alter the Hill District in total... and not in a “community benefits” type of situation.

Eh, I dunno. I think the ship is sailed on Crawford-Roberts gentrifying any time soon because the city made sure Crawford Square was retained as affordable housing. Almost the entire Hill District up to Kirkpatrick has been infilled with non-market-rate development now. Market-rate development might come north from Uptown and Oakland, but it's not going to spread...uhh...northeastward...from the new Lower Hill.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Keep in mind that a large proportion (albeit a decreasing percentage) of downtown residents are actually Point Park University students, either in the dorms or in "off-campus housing." And there's also the SRO buildings and he remaining affordable ones like the Roosevelt Arms.

True, I guess I'm being discriminatory as to who I am considering as downtown residents for the purposes of this topic.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Considering newer buildings (mostly conversions) my general understanding is while garage leases come included with most condo units (excepting maybe Gateway Towers...mostly old people live there though) there have been essentially zero structured parking units added anywhere to account for things like PMC Property's various apartment conversion projects. If everyone in buildings like The Clark and the Alcoa Building were bringing cars, they would have displaced all of the commuters from structured parking over the last decade - but there hasn't been solid evidence of this.

Plus there's just the fact that...if you own a car, and you're not rich, why bother living downtown at all? You could find a nice urban neighborhood with off-street parking included somewhere else at a similar price point, with no hassle of having to finagle a leased spot separately.

I believe all PMC converted apartment buildings offer parking... leasing spaces in existing garages and lots, both in downtown and across the river on the north shore. All friends of mine who live/have lived downtown joke that it's easier/more convenient to live outside of downtown without a car than is in downtown without one, and that everyone in the building who they know have cars. This is anecdotal of course, but I can certainly understand why, given downtown's still relative dearth of amenities for the 25-65 employed demographic.

I totally agree about why bother living downtown at all with a car... I really don't get much of the attraction to living downtown in Pittsburgh specifically (at the present time at least), considering the increased amenities/benefits and convenience of living elsewhere. Pittsburgh's just kinda weird like that, I guess. Though I do think with what's happening in the Strip, potential of the lower Hill, and the incremental enlivening of uptown, this can definitely change.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Eh, I dunno. I think the ship is sailed on Crawford-Roberts gentrifying any time soon because the city made sure Crawford Square was retained as affordable housing. Almost the entire Hill District up to Kirkpatrick has been infilled with non-market-rate development now. Market-rate development might come north from Uptown and Oakland, but it's not going to spread...uhh...northeastward...from the new Lower Hill.

Yeah, I'm definitely referring to "interest" coming from Oakland... pushing west. UPMC/Pitt are not content with status quo for the Wylie/Centre corridor. And I do think we'll witness an eastern push from the new lower Hill. I haven't been around there in awhile, but I thought there was still ample space for potential development west of Kirkpatrick?

[Mr. Franks]

Does anyone have an update on the 9th and Penn proposal? I was near there the other day and I saw a bunch of gravel on the site. Looks like it's not going to happen.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Mr. Franks

Does anyone have an update on the 9th and Penn proposal? I was near there the other day and I saw a bunch of gravel on the site. Looks like it's not going to happen.

The garage mid-block is absolutely going to happen. As for the rest, it all depends on whether the Cultural Trust can get their house in order.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Aside from being able to walk to work if one works downtown, it seems terribly inconvenient in many situations.

Well, that alone was a trip many people did at least ten times a week (pre-pandemic), and I know people both living and working Downtown who would sometimes go home for lunch and such too.

[eschaton]

8/20 ZBA now online. Items of interest:

1. Two infill houses in Central Northside. These are part of the same October Development...uhh...development...that is covered in the August HRC. A few site plans here I haven't seen before.

2. Plans for a new cafe/bakery in Shadyside. The location is several blocks up from the business district. I seem to recall it was originally intended for something else? Maybe a brewery?

[AustinExPat]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Most people I have known who live downtown do a lot of their shopping in the Strip District and/or the Deutschtown Giant Eagle though.

Originally Posted by pj3000

Most people I know who live/have lived downtown (and on the northside) shop in the East End. Which seems totally ridiculous, but it’s the reality of the situation.

I'll chime in as someone who does actually live in downtown Pittsburgh (part-time; we also live part-time in Austin, TX).

We live in First Side and keep a car in the First Avenue T-station garage. It's significantly cheaper than the other downtown garages. We have several destinations for shopping. For coffee beans, I walk to Nicholas Coffee. On the way back, I stop at La Gourmandine to pick up pastries and baguettes. For much of our grocery shopping I visit Penn Mac and use their (free) parking. For other groceries I drive to the Giant Eagle on Murray Ave in Squirrel Hill. We tried driving to other Giant Eagle locations, but the easiest one to get to by car from downtown---by a wide margin---is the Murray Ave location. Most of the trip is on the Parkway, and there are just a few traffic lights at each end. Since I drive only outside of rush hour, the Parkway is plenty fast.

More generally, living downtown makes it pretty easy to reach any part of Pittsburgh by bus, train, or car that I need to go to. I wasn't expecting that, but that's how it has turned out. The airport is an easy bus ride away. For errands on McKnight Road, it's easy to get to I-279. For errands in Lawrenceville, Millvale, and Etna, it's easy to get to Rt 28. For the Squirrel Hill and Regent Square business districts there's the Parkway. For Oakland, Schenley Park, and residential Squirrel Hill there's Blvd of the Allies. For Dormont and Mt Lebanon there's the train. For the South Side there's Second Avenue and a choice of bridges. Second Avenue is also handy for getting to Homestead (via the Hot Metal Bridge and Carson Street).

The thing about living downtown that *is* a pain is this: no free parking for guests when you have people over, except nights and Sundays, and even then it's a crap shoot.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by AustinExPat

I'll chime in as someone who does actually live in downtown Pittsburgh (part-time; we also live part-time in Austin, TX).

We live in First Side and keep a car in the First Avenue T-station garage. It's significantly cheaper than the other downtown garages. We have several destinations for shopping. For coffee beans, I walk to Nicholas Coffee. On the way back, I stop at La Gourmandine to pick up pastries and baguettes. For much of our grocery shopping I visit Penn Mac and use their (free) parking. For other groceries I drive to the Giant Eagle on Murray Ave in Squirrel Hill. We tried driving to other Giant Eagle locations, but the easiest one to get to by car from downtown---by a wide margin---is the Murray Ave location. Most of the trip is on the Parkway, and there are just a few traffic lights at each end. Since I drive only outside of rush hour, the Parkway is plenty fast.

More generally, living downtown makes it pretty easy to reach any part of Pittsburgh by bus, train, or car that I need to go to. I wasn't expecting that, but that's how it has turned out. The airport is an easy bus ride away. For errands on McKnight Road, it's easy to get to I-279. For errands in Lawrenceville, Millvale, and Etna, it's easy to get to Rt 28. For the Squirrel Hill and Regent Square business districts there's the Parkway. For Oakland, Schenley Park, and residential Squirrel Hill there's Blvd of the Allies. For Dormont and Mt Lebanon there's the train. For the South Side there's Second Avenue and a choice of bridges. Second Avenue is also handy for getting to Homestead (via the Hot Metal Bridge and Carson Street).

The thing about living downtown that *is* a pain is this: no free parking for guests when you have people over, except nights and Sundays, and even then it's a crap shoot.

Well, I'm glad to hear to that your shopping experience living Downtown sounds convenient. It sounds like you have it down and are doing it better than people I know who live/lived down there... they always seemed to be driving to Trader Joes, Market District, Whole Foods, and Target in East Liberty for shopping and to the greater East End for dining/drinking.

No argument here about Downtown's convenient location for travel elsewhere -- it is downtown after all!

[pj3000]

I hate to see one neighborhood "poach" another neighborhood's long-standing business, though I imagine that the move to East Liberty makes sense for them, allowing them to grow the business, and given the much busier and centralized location and bigger space.

And I'm sure the squabbling with Edgewood Borough made it that much easier to fold up the tents and move on to a greener oasis.

Square Cafe to move to East Liberty

https://www.post-gazette.com/life/di...s/202008050063

Despite calling it home since 2003, the Square Cafe increasingly was like the proverbial square peg in the round hole along S. Braddock Avenue in Edgewood, and Sherree Goldstein hopes that moving to East Liberty in the fall will be a more perfect fit.

The proprietor of the colorful and perennially popular diner officially announced Tuesday that she’ll move her beloved business to the corner of S. Highland and Centre avenues into what was the site of Spoon and BRGR restaurants, which announced their closure just a month ago. She said she hopes to be up and running there as soon as September.

Her existing location is 2,000 square feet; the double dining room is roughly 8,000 square feet and has a rooftop deck and a basement, and a liquor license.

A brouhaha erupted last September between her and Edgewood Borough over the number of seats and tables she had on the sidewalk outside the cafe, which she’d maintained for years to handle the routine overflow of customers, particularly on weekends in the warmer months.

According to an Oct. 30 Post-Gazette article, “The borough cited the Square Café in September for multiple violations of its outdoor seating regulations, including having tables too close to the curb, failing to provide enough space for pedestrians, and allowing sidewalk dining year-round.”

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I hate to see one neighborhood "poach" another neighborhood's long-standing business, though I imagine that the move to East Liberty makes sense for them, allowing them to grow the business, and given the much busier and centralized location and bigger space.

And I'm sure the squabbling with Edgewood Borough made it that much easier to fold up the tents and move on to a greener oasis.

Square Cafe to move to East Liberty

https://www.post-gazette.com/life/di...s/202008050063

I'm not really a fan of Square Cafe (food is way too oily overall) but we tend to get food there pretty frequently because it's one of the few places for our family there's something for everyone (kids like it, there are vegan options for me, etc). Since COVID they have pivoted to having their own in-house delivery, and I am under the impression they are doing relatively well for a restaurant in this climate.

This move makes sense. Square Cafe's demand always outstripped its actual seating on weekends, and the new space will offer a ton more seating. At first I thought the lack of sidewalk seating would be kinda a drawback, but IIRC the second floor of BRGR is more or less a patio.

Given the nighttime traffic in the area, I have to wonder if they'll ultimately pivot to serving dinner as well.

[eschaton]

I noticed this biking through Lawrenceville the other week, and now the PBT is reporting it too - E Properties has broken ground on the 24-unit condo development at the corner of Butler and 38th.

Yet another Indovina design, which looks sharp, but very much like every other Indovina building:



Ahh well, at least another gap i the streetwall will be closed. And nice to see a condo project which isn't mired in development hell due to not enough pre-sales.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm not really a fan of Square Cafe (food is way too oily overall) but we tend to get food there pretty frequently because it's one of the few places for our family there's something for everyone (kids like it, there are vegan options for me, etc). Since COVID they have pivoted to having their own in-house delivery, and I am under the impression they are doing relatively well for a restaurant in this climate.

This move makes sense. Square Cafe's demand always outstripped its actual seating on weekends, and the new space will offer a ton more seating. At first I thought the lack of sidewalk seating would be kinda a drawback, but IIRC the second floor of BRGR is more or less a patio.

Given the nighttime traffic in the area, I have to wonder if they'll ultimately pivot to serving dinner as well.

I hear you on the oiliness. Had not eaten there in awhile pre-pandemic, but have definitely been there many times... always kinda wondering, "Why did we go eat there again?" afterwards.

With the big Whole Foods-anchored development a few blocks away, it seems that not only is this a good move to address their current space crunch, but it also sets them up well for the future, getting a foothold in the neighborhood.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I noticed this biking through Lawrenceville the other week, and now the PBT is reporting it too - E Properties has broken ground on the 24-unit condo development at the corner of Butler and 38th.

Yet another Indovina design, which looks sharp, but very much like every other Indovina building:



Ahh well, at least another gap i the streetwall will be closed. And nice to see a condo project which isn't mired in development hell due to not enough pre-sales.

I'm really gonna miss that little Dutch Colonial toolshed though.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I'm really gonna miss that little Dutch Colonial toolshed though.

More seriously, the house they knocked down for the development in the rear of the property had the oddest roof profile of anything I've ever seen. I think the home was originally L-shaped, but they built out another "wing" on 38th, resulting in the weird layout. Plus the original buildings which fronted on Butler (which were apparently frame) were lost at some point, making the house visible in a way that was never intended. But it was always so strange seeing some rando rental home's backyard directly across from one of the busiest restaurants in the neighborhood.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

More seriously, the house they knocked down for the development in the rear of the property had the oddest roof profile of anything I've ever seen. I think the home was originally L-shaped, but they built out another "wing" on 38th, resulting in the weird layout. Plus the original buildings which fronted on Butler (which were apparently frame) were lost at some point, making the house visible in a way that was never intended. But it was always so strange seeing some rando rental home's backyard directly across from one of the busiest restaurants in the neighborhood.

Exactly my thoughts on that corner.

I remember dining at Piccolo Forno 10+ years ago with some work people from New York, who just had to act all “NYC” and make snide cracks about the “Appalachia” lot across the street.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Exactly my thoughts on that corner.

I remember dining at Piccolo Forno 10+ years ago with some work people from New York, who just had to act all “NYC” and make snide cracks about the “Appalachia” lot across the street.

I've always wondered about the building catty-corner too. It pretty clearly was a handsome old walkup apartment building with ground-story retail before it was horrendously remuddled in the mid-20th Century. Some sort of complete reskin of the building would help the street presence at that intersection tremendously, but I'm not sure if the economics would work out.