Tucson Development Thread

[Tucson85713]

Originally Posted by andrewsaturn

It makes sense considering ALL the bonds failed even the good ones like highway and road improvement as well as parks and recreation facilities. It was kind of a sad day in Tucson for me but I'm hopeful for the future. I know there are more yes votes than what the results indicates.

True but it's too early to cry defeat! We must wait untill all the ballots are counted.

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Any idea of the specific building? What a weird intersection to choose. I know the one in Phoenix is pretty well respected.

I did not see plans, just a prelim discussion on needs. I believe they are looking at the Northeast corner of the intersection which I assume means just north of the car wash there. I agree that the location seems strange, but I assume they know what they are doing.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

I did not see plans, just a prelim discussion on needs. I believe they are looking at the Northeast corner of the intersection which I assume means just north of the car wash there. I agree that the location seems strange, but I assume they know what they are doing.

My guess could be the old Grant Road Lumber location. It looks like they require a lot of outdoor space, which that would provide, but that's a big parcel.

[hthomas]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

My guess could be the old Grant Road Lumber location. It looks like they require a lot of outdoor space, which that would provide, but that's a big parcel.

Yes, it is going to be in that location, basically across from Kingfisher.

[ProfessorMole]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Any idea of the specific building? What a weird intersection to choose. I know the one in Phoenix is pretty well respected.

They'll likely have to tear something down if it's gonna mimic the one in Phoenix. That one has Culinary Dropout and Little Cleo's attached to it, so I would also be curious if they will use the same restaurant pair down here or adjust it.

[azsunsurfer]

As a property owner (owner of several properties) I am always weary of how Government spends money during a normal basis. Tucson and to a lesser extent Pima County has been less than stellar in transparency. I mean driving thru most streets in Tucson is like driving thru Bedrock. I assume that the voters don't want to spend more in property taxes if they feel the Government is not giving them a bang for the buck. I would do the same here in Maricopa.

[ComplotDesigner]

Happy to see this eyesore going down on Broadway!

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

As a property owner (owner of several properties) I am always weary of how Government spends money during a normal basis. Tucson and to a lesser extent Pima County has been less than stellar in transparency. I mean driving thru most streets in Tucson is like driving thru Bedrock. I assume that the voters don't want to spend more in property taxes if they feel the Government is not giving them a bang for the buck. I would do the same here in Maricopa.

Half the population of Tucson lives on unincorporated county land (the wealthier half of the population for the most part) Their INCOME taxes go to fixing potholes in Phoenix. Tucson is handling the traffic of a million people with half the tax base.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Thirsty

Half the population of Tucson lives on unincorporated county land (the wealthier half of the population for the most part) Their property taxes go to fixing potholes in Phoenix. Tucson is handling the traffic of a million people with half the tax base.

Could you elaborate how this is the case? Why would Pima County taxes fix potholes in Phoenix/Maricopa County? And how is it 100% of the unincorporated Pima County land taxes leave Pima County?

Speaking of Sam Fox/The Yard: It is a great concept in Phoenix. In case anyone hasn't been to the original one (there is a new one in Tempe), they turned several mid-century buildings into several restaurant concepts and a bar centered around a huge old metal canopy (former ducati dealership I believe) where there is outdoor seating/bar area/yard games/ping pong tables. It's a popular place and something similar would likely be a great addition in Tucson.

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by andrewsaturn

It makes sense considering ALL the bonds failed even the good ones like highway and road improvement as well as parks and recreation facilities. It was kind of a sad day in Tucson for me but I'm hopeful for the future. I know there are more yes votes than what the results indicates.

This is really surprising to me as a Phoenix resident (who loves Tucson, btw). Phoenix voters (just Phoenix) tend to be much more progressive when voting on transportation, infrastructure and schools. It's mostly liberals and progressives who vote in these types of elections and thankfully most of them pass. Suprisingly, someone said it was conservatives that led the voting down there. It's a shame, really. But, there's always next time.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

This is really surprising to me as a Phoenix resident (who loves Tucson, btw). Phoenix voters (just Phoenix) tend to be much more progressive when voting on transportation, infrastructure and schools. It's mostly liberals and progressives who vote in these types of elections and thankfully most of them pass. Suprisingly, someone said it was conservatives that led the voting down there. It's a shame, really. But, there's always next time.

One of the issues in this election was that they were county bond propositions. Thus, all the people who live out in Ajo and Avra Valley and are fine living in double-wides off dirt roads - but probably vote in every election - got a say in fixing streets and whatnot in the city of Tucson. The 2012 bond proposition, which passed, was limited to the city of Tucson. Based on the Mayor's reaction to the defeat, I think limiting the propositions to the city may be the avenue the city pursues going forward.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by ComplotDesigner

Happy to see this eyesore going down on Broadway!

Fixing to be a Popeye's, which excites me greatly.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

As a property owner (owner of several properties) I am always weary of how Government spends money during a normal basis. Tucson and to a lesser extent Pima County has been less than stellar in transparency. I mean driving thru most streets in Tucson is like driving thru Bedrock. I assume that the voters don't want to spend more in property taxes if they feel the Government is not giving them a bang for the buck. I would do the same here in Maricopa.

We can either live in Bedrock or hope our money gets spent the way we want. I'd rather take the chance and hope things progress because using past failures to frame all current and future decisions is a losing proposition. On that front, though, the projects funded by the city's 2012 bonds are coming in ahead of schedule and below cost.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by hthomas

Yes, it is going to be in that location, basically across from Kingfisher.

Cool. Just found the development package. Looks like it's going from this:



To this:

[InTheBurbs]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Cool. Just found the development package. Looks like it's going from this:
To this:

Their map is incorrect - it's showing Tucson and Broadway.

[InTheBurbs]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Could you elaborate how this is the case? Why would Pima County taxes fix potholes in Phoenix/Maricopa County? And how is it 100% of the unincorporated Pima County land taxes leave Pima County?

My understanding is a bit rusty, but the formula that the state uses to dole out transportation dollars favors incorporated cities. So Maricopa County, which is something like 80-90% incorporated gets a larger share of gas tax revenue than Pima, which is only 50% (or whatever) incorporated.

If you assume that each county contributes a proportional amount of gas tax to the state, rather than splitting the pot 80/20 based on population, Maricopa may get 90% and Pima 10%. So not all the money goes to Phoenix, but Tucson/Pima loses millions a year.

And with a huge chunk of the legislature from Maricopa, that ain't likely to change soon.

That's why there were moves a while back to "incorporate" the Foothills, Casa Adobes, etc. Not to make them cities per se, but to try to capture some of the lost state funding.

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Could you elaborate how this is the case? Why would Pima County taxes fix potholes in Phoenix/Maricopa County? And how is it 100% of the unincorporated Pima County land taxes leave Pima County?

Speaking of Sam Fox/The Yard: It is a great concept in Phoenix. In case anyone hasn't been to the original one (there is a new one in Tempe), they turned several mid-century buildings into several restaurant concepts and a bar centered around a huge old metal canopy (former ducati dealership I believe) where there is outdoor seating/bar area/yard games/ping pong tables. It's a popular place and something similar would likely be a great addition in Tucson.

Not 100% of the revenue leaves Pima County. 1.5% comes back to the city of Tucson.

And I was incorrect, the kick back is for income tax not property but the idea is the same. 15% of collected income tax is pooled and distributed back to incorporated cities/towns. Tucson's share for 520,000 people was about $63 million last year.

However nearly a half million people live across an invisible line drawn through the suburbs, but still rely on Tucson's economy and infrastructure. The region is losing out on an additional 48 million locally generated tax dollars.

If the rest of Tucson would incorporate, the cities of metro Tucson would collect >18% of that $609 million income tax pool.

Potholes was just a metaphor, I wasn't implying there is a pothole fund filled solely with the dollars from Pima County. But with about 95% of Maricopa county incorporated, the lion's share of the money Pima county leaves on the table heads right to metro Phoneix.

Other state money distributions are more complicated, taking into account relative city and county populations. The way income tax is distributed puts Pima county at a disadvantage, and the people of unincorporated Pima county for their part are unwilling to play the game. Tucson in the past has played into this, but at the time the game was for relatively small potatoes. It really hurts the city today.

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by InTheBurbs

My understanding is a bit rusty, but the formula that the state uses to dole out transportation dollars favors incorporated cities. So Maricopa County, which is something like 80-90% incorporated gets a larger share of gas tax revenue than Pima, which is only 50% (or whatever) incorporated.

If you assume that each county contributes a proportional amount of gas tax to the state, rather than splitting the pot 80/20 based on population, Maricopa may get 90% and Pima 10%. So not all the money goes to Phoenix, but Tucson/Pima loses millions a year.

And with a huge chunk of the legislature from Maricopa, that ain't likely to change soon.

That's why there were moves a while back to "incorporate" the Foothills, Casa Adobes, etc. Not to make them cities per se, but to try to capture some of the lost state funding.

That's the gist of it. I was only talking about income tax but sales tax, gas tax and transportation fees are all distributed too and at much higher rates than 15%.

With these taxes though, I think there is a little more balance. Meaning they pay to counties as well, so the disparity between what Pima county pays in and what comes back is less drastic.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by InTheBurbs

My understanding is a bit rusty, but the formula that the state uses to dole out transportation dollars favors incorporated cities. So Maricopa County, which is something like 80-90% incorporated gets a larger share of gas tax revenue than Pima, which is only 50% (or whatever) incorporated.

Your original post was about Unincorporated Pima County property taxes (not gas tax) going to Maricopa County:

Half the population of Tucson lives on unincorporated county land (the wealthier half of the population for the most part) Their property taxes go to fixing potholes in Phoenix. Tucson is handling the traffic of a million people with half the tax base.

How are Pima County property taxes from unincorporated areas going to Phoenix?

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by hthomas

Yes, it is going to be in that location, basically across from Kingfisher.

....and Dante's Fire (next to Kingfisher). If you guys haven't eaten there I highly recommend it! So it does make sense to locate it there seeing the area already sees traffic for the other two restaurants.