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  #10221  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 10:56 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
This is fair, reasonable


But all these side arguments aside, there's only two key questions to be decided.

First
is the subject property (really) a good candidate for historical preservation?

Second
is it reasonable for the Denver City Council to rob the property owner of its "fair and present" value. If the DCC and/or others are willing to compensate the owner for its fair market value then FINE (to piggyback on a point The Dirt has made). If not then don't be screwing with a party's property rights. In fact, the Supreme Court has typically taken a very dim view of government confiscation of private property.
Based on this rationale, we must eliminate any and all zoning and preservation requirements because they impact the appraisal's "fair and present" value conclusion. Nevermind that we have decades of precedent, "investment-backed expectations" even, of developers expecting to navigate a sophisticated entitlement process to build in Denver.

Then the YIMBY bros can finally turn this into Mile High Dallas. I guess we can debate the preservation of merits of entire neighborhoods of Texas Donuts here in 30 years.

Most of you are just reacting at an instinctual level to good or bad, rather than actually imagining how the contributing mid-century elements can be beneficially incorporated. All naysayers see is Channel 7, which this has nothing to do with.
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  #10222  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
Unpopular opinion, but I think it's looks Fine(TM). Like, it's just big bulky infill because the city and lenders require 100 million parking spaces per person.
I think its a fine filler, just making a statement about what might be considered "historic" in 30 years using one of the many landscrapers cruise liners to be built in recent years.
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  #10223  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 1:06 AM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Based on this rationale, we must eliminate any and all zoning and preservation requirements because they impact the appraisal's "fair and present" value conclusion. Nevermind that we have decades of precedent, "investment-backed expectations" even, of developers expecting to navigate a sophisticated entitlement process to build in Denver.

Then the YIMBY bros can finally turn this into Mile High Dallas. I guess we can debate the preservation of merits of entire neighborhoods of Texas Donuts here in 30 years.

Most of you are just reacting at an instinctual level to good or bad, rather than actually imagining how the contributing mid-century elements can be beneficially incorporated. All naysayers see is Channel 7, which this has nothing to do with.
I'm going to just go ahead and be a YIMBY bro and embrace Mile High Dallas development. Honestly, at this point, give me Calcutta slums just so that we can get over our high opinion of ourselves and our baby of a city.
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  #10224  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 1:07 AM
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Sam Hill Sam Hill is offline
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
Unpopular opinion, but I think it's looks Fine(TM). Like, it's just big bulky infill because the city and lenders require 100 million parking spaces per person.
Interesting. We all see things through a different lens. I have a hard time imagining how it looks through your lens. It looks extraordinarily hideous to me. I was confused by it for the longest time. It took months after construction had ended for me to realize it wasn’t under construction anymore.
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  #10225  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 5:47 AM
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Cirrus Cirrus is offline
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Fun fact: Dallas is filled with ugly 20th century office buildings.

There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on in this thread.
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  #10226  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 2:10 PM
mojiferous mojiferous is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Based on this rationale, we must eliminate any and all zoning and preservation requirements...
Now you're getting close - zoning is a real problem because it is used almost exclusively as exclusionary in this country. Historically it has been used to prevent people you don't like from moving in nearby (like the poor/renters) and to prop up precious property values (see: many of Denver's city-center neighborhoods that are most resistant to density)

Preservation requirements are another matter - they started as a good thing, preserving some of the city's early history, but they have become a tool of current landowners and the rich to prevent ANY change in their neighborhoods and increase their property values. I think what we're all saying here is that there should be a lot more than just age in a preservation judgment, but historical, cultural, and architectural value. Does the building mean something to the community, did something meaningful and noteworthy happen there, and is the architecture worthy of preservation? The answer in all three cases for Denver 7 is no. This shouldn't be a "these three people don't want more apartments so they stopped a building" kind of process, but that's what we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Fun fact: Dallas is filled with ugly 20th century office buildings.

There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on in this thread.
I don't think anyone is seriously defending Dallas or their shiny glass cubes here - it's just that even a PVC-siding brown donut is better looking than the brown concrete turd-prison that is Denver 7. And in my experience every city across the world is filled with ugly 20th century architecture - New York is 90% featureless cubes, same with Paris beyond the 12th arrondissment, Tokyo, London... It is a curse and bane on us all, no? Almost every thread on every forum in this place is full of people consciously ignoring the frighteningly ugly parts of their cities - it's just harder for some of us because our cities are so full of international-style dullness.
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  #10227  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 2:17 PM
Agent Orange Agent Orange is offline
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
At some point you need to acknowledge that you came here for the mountains and the lifestyle and you want other people to stop moving here and don't want Denver to urbanize.
As usual, mojiferous says it best, that entire post should be framed for future NIMBY visitors to our "blog". All the better coming from an actual Denver native (iirc) who knows how things "used to be". That's just it, nearly everyone wants to move to Colorado from their backwards, boring or overpriced states (me included), and then draw up the gates and keep things exactly as they found them when they arrived. Except home values, they're happy to see those double every 6 years.
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  #10228  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 4:09 PM
mr1138 mr1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
I don't think anyone is seriously defending Dallas or their shiny glass cubes here - it's just that even a PVC-siding brown donut is better looking than the brown concrete turd-prison that is Denver 7. And in my experience every city across the world is filled with ugly 20th century architecture - New York is 90% featureless cubes, same with Paris beyond the 12th arrondissment, Tokyo, London... It is a curse and bane on us all, no? Almost every thread on every forum in this place is full of people consciously ignoring the frighteningly ugly parts of their cities - it's just harder for some of us because our cities are so full of international-style dullness.
To be fair, there is a pretty big difference between International Style and Brutalist Style. Denver has its own fair share of International Style downtown, but I wasn't under the impression that that's what this is about. International office buildings often also fail at street-level urban design and are a bit boring, but at least they aren't ugly like the concrete bunker style of brutalism (aesthetics obviously being highly subjective). But your point about people viewing their own cities with rose-colored glasses is a good one nonetheless.

I'm pretty sure that the "Dallas" criticism is about "Dallas Donuts," otherwise known as one-plus-five construction. This form actually originates in California, not Texas - just look around LA and you'll see plenty of this kind of building. Texas just adapted the form to wrap around and hide parking garages in a "donut" shape that fills a whole city block. I'm no huge fan of these buildings - they do look cheap, often have excessive parking, and tend to substitute things like leasing offices where there should be neighborhood-scale retail instead. But they do add density and usually fill their city blocks all the way to the property lines in a way that defines the street. This is something that buildings like the Channel 7 building under discussion deliberately tried NOT to do (large setbacks and surface parking as a feature of the site plan), which just creates an urban form that is harder for people to mentally map.

The "Gables" apartments a block away from Channel 7 encompasses pretty much everything both good and bad I just described. It isn't great architecture, but it's a hell of a lot better than the gas station that was there before. It actually defines the shape of the city block, which along this stretch of Speer is a HUGE improvement over the previous condition and makes it feel more like a proper urban boulevard.

I like pictures for reference:

Last edited by mr1138; Apr 28, 2021 at 4:19 PM.
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  #10229  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 4:24 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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A 5+1 is just any woodframe of that height.

A Dallas Doughnut (or Texas Doughnut) requires the above-grade parking garage.
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  #10230  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 7:25 PM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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Ugh, look at that top floor of the parking garage. That empty level probably cost $3-4M. However, since I'm a YIMBY bro, I guess I want 100 of these in Denver because I hate Denver's rich architectural history or something.
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  #10231  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 9:24 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
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Mr1138 - Very thoughtful post, although you like others fall into the trap of basing "ugly" on present conditions. For International Style, I.M. Pei's building at Broadway/16th just got a nice glow-up and may even have an active frontage once it opens for business. But you referenced a plan for the Channel 7 site. Do you mind sharing what you've seen or talking a little bit more about it? I honestly have no idea what specifically is proposed, so far I can only opine on the preservation potential and planning process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
Ugh, look at that top floor of the parking garage. That empty level probably cost $3-4M. However, since I'm a YIMBY bro, I guess I want 100 of these in Denver because I hate Denver's rich architectural history or something.
Well, you did say X Denver looks "fine." Granted there was nothing there but trash and occasional CSO overflows, or else I assure you all I'd be fighting to preserve whatever stood there before X Denver LOL (I'm very much kidding, don't hyperventilate)

In a way X Denver is great because we just need to take these weird remaining sites and just stick X number of units on them. Better there than the middle of Cap Hill or Park Hill, which we know YIMBY would love to see.
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  #10232  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 9:32 PM
Ndj Ndj is offline
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If a building is bad it better be extra historic to be worthy of preservation. It ought to be even more historic in proportion to the potential highest and best use of the land it occupies. The Denver 7 building is moderately bad, barely historic and occupies high value land. That adds up to no preservation for me.

In other news, I've been thinking all along that the facade on X Denver was some sort of sheathing and that the true facade was still to come. That's the final product? Oh my.
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  #10233  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 10:02 PM
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wong21fr wong21fr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Well, you did say X Denver looks "fine." Granted there was nothing there but trash and occasional CSO overflows, or else I assure you all I'd be fighting to preserve whatever stood there before X Denver LOL (I'm very much kidding, don't hyperventilate)
So you have no clue what was torn down for X Denver? Oh you poor transplant with no appreciation for Denver's industrial history.... search Denver Mining Company/Denver Equipment Company.


Quote:
In a way X Denver is great because we just need to take these weird remaining sites and just stick X number of units on them. Better there than the middle of Cap Hill or Park Hill, which we know YIMBY would love to see.
Personally I'd go for wiping out Congress Park bungalows for 50 or 60 X Denver's. Then we'd have an eventual dystopian slum that could justify a subway. Get a real Cyberpunk fell going there.
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Last edited by wong21fr; Apr 29, 2021 at 2:31 PM.
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  #10234  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 10:05 PM
mr1138 mr1138 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Mr1138 - Very thoughtful post, although you like others fall into the trap of basing "ugly" on present conditions. For International Style, I.M. Pei's building at Broadway/16th just got a nice glow-up and may even have an active frontage once it opens for business. But you referenced a plan for the Channel 7 site. Do you mind sharing what you've seen or talking a little bit more about it? I honestly have no idea what specifically is proposed, so far I can only opine on the preservation potential and planning process.
I actually don't know anything more about what might be proposed here than anyone else. Sorry if I wasn't clear - when I mentioned a "site plan" I was talking about the plan for the existing facility. And by that I mean:
  • An octagonal tower at the corner of Speer and Lincoln that sits at an oblique to Speer Boulevard and fails to define that street
  • A "valet" style dropoff on Speer that interrupts the sidewalk
  • A nasty iron fence that separates the tower from Lincoln and makes the place feel like some kind of weird jail or compound
  • A weird sidecar of a building to the north of that tower that is so short that all anyone really notices is the tower
  • A parking lot as an intended feature of the site plan surrounded by a fence with some broadcasting equipment/satellite dishes awkwardly thrown in
Essentially it is an "object in space" and fails to "define space." But this is exactly what modernist urban design was trying to do. They didn't like "urban canyons," i.e. streets defined by a wall of buildings. The goal was to create a bunch of pointy objects within an open field of space. They were trying to undo the traditional figure-ground of the city and try to achieve something like the below image - it was an overtly hostile act aimed at destroying the city as people once knew it.



And this, again, is exactly what early preservationists were trying to stop the urban environment from becoming - they were trying to preserve the traditional definition of urban space as seen in a place like Larimer Square, where buildings meet both each other and the sidewalk to create a kind of "outdoor room." The city has since doubled-down on this with form-based code requirements that would never allow a site plan like this to be submitted today. Take this language right out of Denver's zoning code about the intended design purpose: "The Mixed Use zone districts are intended to promote safe, active, and pedestrian-scaled, diverse areas through the use of building forms that clearly define and activate the public street edge."

The design for the Channel 7 Building was a deliberate attempt not to define the street edge. It is exactly what city policy says it doesn't want in this part of town. And while I agree that much of this could be changed through modification in theory, nothing can be done about the "object in space" octagonal shape of the tower.

And yes - it's true, I did use the word "ugly," which I admit is a subjective aesthetic judgement. But it is what it is - I find the shape of the building, its urban context, and the weird stone-aggregate façade material to be ugly. I don't think I'm alone on this - but as they say, there's no accounting for taste. No amount of modification to the site plan or additional structures surrounding the building can change the fact that the tower is ugly.

Last edited by mr1138; Apr 28, 2021 at 10:42 PM.
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  #10235  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 10:51 PM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...andmark-status

“Its place along Speer Boulevard, almost by definition, is a landmark,” Wise said. “It’s unique enough that most people remember it.”

Apparently, our preservation criteria are so broad and vague that something can be historic because it sits on a major arterial. These are the same guys that want to preserve the partially burnt down Wrangler/Psychedelic Ripple building on the corner of Logan and 17th. Yo, we have a housing crisis, and these battles take time and money, when we should be building housing yesterday.
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  #10236  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 11:21 PM
mr1138 mr1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...andmark-status

“Its place along Speer Boulevard, almost by definition, is a landmark,” Wise said. “It’s unique enough that most people remember it.”
This reminds me of a point that I was trying to extract yesterday for my post about Rotterdam (difficult to search Skyscrapercity for the exact quote since it's all in Dutch). I'm paraphrasing here but essentially somebody said "The only reason one might want to preserve some of the buildings on Lijnbaan [insert Channel 7 for Denver] for posterity is so that future generations can see what was considered 'good architecture' in the mid 20th century, and understand why we no longer consider that to be good architecture."

Wise appears to be essentially saying "we should save it because it exists and many people have seen it."
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  #10237  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 4:12 AM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Fresh of their '420-joint' brainstorming session
Hancock say if Team Biden can do it (spend lots of money) then "We Can Do It" too.

Denver announces economic recovery plan, including $400M bond question
Apr 28, 2021 By Ed Sealover – Senior Reporter, Denver Business Journal
Quote:
Denver leaders will ask voters in November to approve a $400 million bond issue for construction projects that will be at the heart of a multipronged effort that the city announced on Wednesday to try to rejuvenate its economy to pre-pandemic levels.
This is beginning to sound like Biden's "expanded" definition of "infrastructure."
Quote:
The economic recovery plan also will involve the expansion of a small business grant program, increased efforts toward workforce retraining, increased connection services between job seekers and hiring companies and initiatives to make it easier to do business within the city.
So what's on the 'construction' infrastructure list?
There is no list but we'll start a list-discussion post-haste.

Well, there is this list, right?
Quote:
...they will start from a list of some 5,000 projects on their existing six-year list, chief financial officer Brendan Hanlon said. The final list is likely to include transportation projects, community facilities like libraries and recreational centers and public buildings that can help to generate tourism and host cultural events.
I have a list of three; money (as needed) for three things:
  1. 16th Street Mall Reconstruction
  2. East Colfax BRT project, and
  3. One new downtown parking garage to keep The Dirt happy.
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  #10238  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 4:33 AM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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I'm starting to like you, TakeaFive. Why Dallasify Denver when we can Phoenixize.
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  #10239  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 11:46 AM
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Brainpathology Brainpathology is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Fun fact: Dallas is filled with ugly 20th century office buildings.

There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on in this thread.
For my part I was trying to avoid city bashing, which I thought was frowned upon here (Edit: except the nearly enforced requirement to bash whatever city you currently live in). I have no love for the aesthetics (or Politics which is probably not really a coincidence) of virtually any city south of the Colorado border of similar size to Denver, San Diego being a possible exception.
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Last edited by Brainpathology; Apr 29, 2021 at 12:14 PM.
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  #10240  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 4:45 PM
CurtisParkChris CurtisParkChris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I have a list of three; money (as needed) for three things:
  1. 16th Street Mall Reconstruction
  2. East Colfax BRT project, and
  3. One new downtown parking garage to keep The Dirt happy.
38th St Underpass reconstruction, please
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