California High Speed Rail Thread

[202_Cyclist]

Official: California high speed rail won't be de-railed by GOP plan

By Adolfo Flores, Staff Writer
Posted: 11/28/2010
Pasadena Star-News


"Officials with the California High-Speed Rail Authority expressed concern about a plan to pull $2 billion in stimulus funds but remain optomistic the train will be built.

The Authority plans to run trains on several miles of track through the San Gabriel Valley by 2035 and hopes to have a San Francisco to Los Angeles route in place by 2020.

But the ascendancy of Republicans in the House of Representatives who oppose the Obama Administration's signature transportation initiative could quickly derail federal funding.

"We're very aware that getting additional federal funding is an ongoing challenge," authority spokeswoman Rachel Wall said. "A lot of new politicians and new elected officials are taking office and what we're eager to do is continue sitting down with more of them, we take it as an invitation to continue dialogue."

Earlier this month Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Redlands, incoming head of the House Appropriations Committee introduced the American Recovery and Reinvestment Rescission Act. The proposal seeks to pull back $12 billion in unspent stimulus funds to close the nation's $1.3 trillion budget deficit...."

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_16728401

[Yankee]

Originally Posted by SD_Phil

It's practically 2011 as it is. Given that materials must be procured, land rights managed, etc. 2012 seems about right.

Oh man... Japan will be beaming people to Mars and we'll have a space elevator and fighting off an alien invasion by the time actual trains start running. And after the aliens win they will use the trains the same way we used Germany's autobahns in World War 2. We are building a high speed rail system for our future alien overlords, great.

[ElDuderino]

1st Calif. high-speed rail segment to be in valley

Michael Cabanatuan, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, December 3, 2010

(12-03) 04:00 PST Sacramento - -- California's dream of building a statewide high-speed rail system with trains zipping along at 220 mph will start to become reality with a 54-mile stretch of track deep in the Central Valley, the High-Speed Rail Authority board decided Thursday.

The board, facing a looming deadline to capture $3 billion in federal stimulus funding, voted unanimously to lay the first high-speed rails between Borden, south of Madera, through Fresno, to Corcoran, midway between Fresno and Bakersfield. Stations will be built in Fresno and in the Hanford area of Kings County.

But the $4.3 billion segment will not carry trains until it can become part of a larger system reaching toward the Bay Area or Los Angeles. The initial section will include tracks, trestles and elevated structures, but not the electrical system that powers the trains, nor the rail cars or maintenance facility.

Critics have lambasted the starting segment since it was recommended by the authority staff the day before Thanksgiving. Its location between two small towns has become a joke among opponents who have dubbed the project "the train to nowhere."

Others have argued that the first segment should link major cities in the valley. Merced officials argued that the rails should start in their city while Kern County officials said the lines should stretch south to Bakersfield.

But board members said the public should look at the initial section as a small starting point for an 800-mile system that will expand north and south as more money becomes available.

"We're in the business of connecting major metropolitan centers across our state, and we won't have a true high-speed rail system until we tie every part of this state together," said Tom Umberg, board vice chairman. "It's not one town or one region versus another; it's about connecting one region to another. "

Starting point

Umberg likened the $43 billion high-speed rail project to President Eisenhower's plan for the interstate highway system in the 1950s.

"It's a system that everyone uses today," he said. "That system started in Missouri."

California's dream of a high-speed rail system has existed since at least the 1970s, and while planners made limited progress toward defining how it could become reality, it didn't really generate momentum until voters passed a $10 billion bond in November 2008 to help fund the system's first phase from San Francisco to Southern California.

The project attracted the support of the federal government this year with the award of $2.25 billion in federal economic stimulus funds in January followed by $715 million more in October. Last month, the Federal Railroad Administration said it wanted all of that money, which must be spent on a project that's ready to build by 2011, to be used to build the first section of track somewhere in the Central Valley.

Going where support is

Rod Diridon, a board member from San Jose, said segments from San Francisco to San Jose and Los Angeles to Anaheim were passed over by federal officials because of persistent opposition in those areas.

"There was abject cooperation coming from Merced, Fresno and Bakersfield," he said. "That was the sole reason" for the federal mandate.

Authority engineers considered three basic routes for funding: Merced to Fresno, Fresno to Bakersfield and the segment they ended up recommending. Hans Van Winkle, the project manager, said federal requirements that the segment could connect to existing passenger rail lines if the high-speed project fails, the limited amount of funding, and the ability to extend tracks north and south made the Borden to Corcoran stretch preferable.

But board member Lynn Schenk said she feared that selecting the recommended route would subject the statewide project to further ridicule and make it difficult to obtain more federal funding and needed private investment.

"I'm concerned this staff recommendation makes engineering sense," she said, "but not common sense."

source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNN61GL54K.DTL

[fflint]

The first segment is getting slagged, but having it connect smoothly on both ends to existing railroads is a very good idea. Worst case scenario, Amtrak gets dedicated rail trackage instead of sharing it with cargo lines. It's incremental, but it is definitely progress--if they'd pushed to double-track for Amtrak, they would have had to settle for even less. Intra-city passenger rail wins in the best and worst case scenarios.

[hammersklavier]

The French lignes à grande vitesse are normally rural constructions. As are their Italian and German counterparts. This is a highly efficient way of installing HSR for the rather obvious reason that it utilizes existing infrastructure where it's most expensive to build new infrastructure (the cities). As such, building the more rural parts of the run first is a good idea. After all, the first superhighway built in the United States was between Carlisle, PA, and Irwin, PA--hardly towns anyone's ever heard of.

[JDRCRASH]

First it was San Francisco & Sacramento - Los Angeles & San Diego
Then, they said it would be San Francisco - Anaheim
After that, it was Merced - Bakersfield
And now, it's Borden - Corcoran

......UMMMM.....AM I THE ONLY ONE NOTICING A PATTERN HERE?

[DJM19]

SF/SAC - LA/San Diego is the whole line.

SF-LA (or SF-Anaheim...not sure) is the first phase.

Merced-Bakerfield is the general area where the feds said it HAS to begin construction on the condition that the HSR Authority has accepted its grant money.

Borden-Corcoran is the specific area within that federal-demanded area, within the first phase that was selected to begin construction. Nothing will operate until the first phase is complete and ready. Other sections within the first phase will be constructed concurrent to the Borden-Corcoran section. I dont think many people understand those last two parts...It has to start somewhere.

[202_Cyclist]

Peer report calls for 'thorough reassessment' of high-speed rail project

BY JOHN COX
Friday, Dec 03 2010 08:34 PM
Bakersfield Californian

"Another bucket of cold water doused the California High-Speed Rail Authority Friday with the public release of a peer-review report that calls for a "thorough reassessment" of issues ranging from the multibillion-dollar project's business model to its questionable funding sources and revenue projections.

Most if not all of the criticisms raised in the state-ordered report of the authority's 2009 Report to the Legislature have been discussed publicly before, and the document itself is essentially an advisory that carries no enforcement weight.

Even so, the report carries unique significance in that it assembles observations by transportation industry people and presents them in a focused, urgent manner likely to fuel growing dissatisfaction with the project's progress..."

http://www.bakersfield.com/news/loca...d-rail-project

[202_Cyclist]

Plan B: High-speed track could be used by conventional trains

BY JOHN COX
Bakersfield Californian
Saturday, Dec 04 2010

"Just in case the skeptics are right and high-speed rail never fully materializes in California, project officials are discussing a back-up plan with Amtrak, BNSF Railway Co. and Caltrans that would still attempt to shorten passenger train travel times along the initial, 65-mile Central Valley segment approved Thursday.

The federally required back-up plan would tie the new route's northern and southern ends to BNSF lines already used by Amtrak's San Joaquin service, allowing passenger trains to go 105 mph or more over at least 54 miles of new high-speed track.

That's a little less than half the speed true high-speed rail can achieve, but it's about a third faster than the 79 mph Amtrak's Central Valley service is limited to now because it shares the route with freight trains..."

http://www.bakersfield.com/news/loca...ntional-trains

[llamaorama]

You know, honestly, if they are going to compromise this much why even do the project at all? Its not the project that will have the same benefits the people of California voted yes on prop 1A(I think that was it?) for.

This whole thing sucks. Do it right the first time please. It would be a lot of money to spend to build a sort of fast line through podunk places that nobody will ride, only for everyone to be dissatisfied and want to try the bullet train idea again.

[JDRCRASH]

In the long run, I wouldn't be surprised if building it in phases would make it more expensive, with the NIMBYs having more time to derail the project.

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

You know, honestly, if they are going to compromise this much why even do the project at all? Its not the project that will have the same benefits the people of California voted yes on prop 1A(I think that was it?) for.

This whole thing sucks. Do it right the first time please. It would be a lot of money to spend to build a sort of fast line through podunk places that nobody will ride, only for everyone to be dissatisfied and want to try the bullet train idea again.

Fresno, CA is a podunk place? The city has a population of 500,000 and the metropolitan area has a population of around 922,000. They don't have quite enough funding at this point to build Fresno to Bakersfield, so they are building the first segment pretty much centered on Fresno. Have to start the building of the HSR system someplace. In the middle makes sense to me, because then they can build north and south from there. Better than starting it in the SF to San Jose segment where the entire project could get bogged down for years before any serious construction starts. It is worth remembering that the CA HSR didn't have any federal funding a year ago. Going to be tough to get more federal funding in the next several years, but I would not rule it out.

Looking at the funding numbers for the 1st segment, there is a large reserve of around 20% added on top of the earlier already padded (in case they run into problems) cost estimates. If they manage to keep the project close to on budget, they may be able to eventually put around $800 million of this $4 billion towards the next segment.

[Kingofthehill]

^ That doesn't negate the fact that Fresno is still a podunk place

[DJM19]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

You know, honestly, if they are going to compromise this much why even do the project at all? Its not the project that will have the same benefits the people of California voted yes on prop 1A(I think that was it?) for.

This whole thing sucks. Do it right the first time please. It would be a lot of money to spend to build a sort of fast line through podunk places that nobody will ride, only for everyone to be dissatisfied and want to try the bullet train idea again.

What exactly are you upset about? The project is still as it was when voted on. This section they are building is part of the whole line and the line would not open without it.

[zilfondel]

Gotta start somewhere.

[JDRCRASH]

Dude, don't you guys get it? When members of a certain political party inevitably see this, do you really think they're going to see this the same way we do? They WILL classify this as "waste", and they WILL try and stop it from happening. It's already happening. And guess what? Nobody's going to be there to lecture them, because the other political party is too chicken to fight.

Also, the media is not on their side (640 John&Ken show already is whining about it). Which means that, eventually, when more bad news comes out - and I have a feeling there's more to come - the public won't be either.

[glowrock]

Gotta start somewhere, so I'm totally fine with this. Makes sense to tie in both ends with the current freight/Amtrak line as well. Hell, even just a full Fresno-Bakersfield line would be a nice thing, and probably COULD be opened while construction continues from Bakersfield-L.A. Basin and Fresno to the Bay Area/SF/Sac...

Starting construction in the Central Valley is cheaper and faster than in the urban areas, and thus makes the most sense from a "bang for your buck" standpoint as well. Also it helps politically, as the Central Valley tends to be more right-wing, more prone to be against rail to begin with. Start the project there, and you eliminate a lot of political issues.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[pesto]

Well, suppose I invested my money in a company to build a railroad and the board decided they didn't have enough money or source of money to build 3/4of it but decided to take my money and build-out Corcoran. Would I (and the other shareholders) applaud their boldness or sue them for gross mishandling of a trust? No response needed.

And, yes, the vote is a complete PR disaster. It's hard to imagine the average voter, the GOP controlled House or any of the groups that are looking for mitiagation in their neighborhoods not using this as an example of government power run amok. If you give it to them they will spend it. Shamelessly.

btw, Fresno has a lot of people but 95 percent plus live in spread out single story suburbs or unwalkable 2 story apartment neighborhoods. Its need for transit of this sort is approximately zero. And meanwhile LA and the Bay are choking with traffic and people who want and need mass transit. That's why California is viewed as "broken".

[DJM19]

There is no stop in Corcoran. Fresno is the only solid stop in this segment (they are considering Hanford, but that would have to replace another station somewhere else).

People are making wild assumptions and being very ridiculous about this. You might as well predict a 5-train pileup and start condemning the HSRA now for this tragic event that you thought of in your head.

This portion of the line is part of the first phase of the project. It is NECESSARY for the first phase of the project. The project will not open with it, and it will not open until the rest of the first phase is done.

There is no connection to Amtrak, that is just a distant and unlikely plan B, should no other funding materialize (keep in mind they aren't even using half of the existing funding yet).

Some politicians have made moves to take funding from CAHSR, but if you actually look at it with any scrutiny, they cant. Obama would not sign a bill that defunds his own pride and joy stimulus. The next transportation committee head is a republican that supports HSR.

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by DJM19

People are making wild assumptions and being very ridiculous about this. You might as well predict a 5-train pileup and start condemning the HSRA now for this tragic event that you thought of in your head.

I am not making up wild assumptions and tragic events. The backlash against HSR is real, and it's already beginning to take out the less important projects like those in Ohio and Wisconsin.

This portion of the line is part of the first phase of the project. It is NECESSARY for the first phase of the project. The project will not open with it, and it will not open until the rest of the first phase is done.

So how long will the track sit there unused?