A forumer's long view of Winnipeg

[DirtWednesday]

The west end is the best place to go for international food cravings. No question about it.

[WinCitySparky]

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting take. I don't live there so I'm left mainly with the impressions I get as I pass through. And I probably would have agreed with you 12 years ago, but the way it appears now -- to my eyes at least -- is very different than it did circa 2009. And it doesn't look like things have changed for the better. Is it mainly the drug factor that OTA mentioned?

Granted I'm thinking mainly of the West End closer to downtown. I realize it's a different story once you get west of Arlington and closer to Polo Park. So not every part of the area is in the same boat.

You are indeed correct in that observation. It does get grittier the farther east you get. That I can’t deny. The swath boxed in between Colony/Isabel, Notre Dame/Cumberland, Portage, and Sherbrook/Maryland is certainly the poorest. However, going back to the 80’s and the 90’s, according to many of my neighbours who are in their 30’s to 60’s that have lived on my block on the west side of Arlington, back then roaming gangs were completely the norm and they say you couldn’t be out walking on the street after 8pm without danger. Two storey houses on my block also sold for 20-40000 in the 90’s and every second or third house was an absentee-landlord rooming house. Currently there are no more rooming houses on the block at all, and houses of that description around here now go for minimum 230k for maintained-but-not-updated. Increased neighbourhood vibrancy on a house-by-house, block-by-block basis is apparent.

So yes indeed problems in the wider area are still present, but mainly my take on the improvement is the long take, averaged over. I expect that over another 20 years it will continue to renew north-eastward, as more properties deteriorate to dereliction and are razed and rebuilt on, and increased social supports continue to get people to a better place.

Also to note is the very noticeable increase the past few years of wide lots being split and replaced with two brand new homes. Several are in progress on Arlington near Ellice, Lipton near St Matthews, etc.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

My friends and I are all coming to the age where we become settled in our careers and make a decent enough income where we'd all like to buy in the next couple of years. Everyone wants to be in Wolseley because its nice, the houses are old and have character, there are actual storefronts and walkable businesses nearby and of course its close to the City and our offices. To me its the closest you can get to Toronto's West End in Winnipeg. Further, we're all fairly urban and liberal and we're used to West Broadway in the sense that part of living here is sometimes you see someone high as a kite kicking a phone booth lol - maybe we're a little desensitized to it. But I know Wolseley has gotten a little expensive for someone in the early stages of their career so people are looking to be close and adjacent to Wolseley. So I know amongst my demographic that's West Broadway, and the blocks north of Wolesely but south of St. Matthews. I'm not sure where else we'd go and what other areas in Winnipeg offer that kind of experience.

I think the idea of a Wolseley "North" is likely inevitable just based on limited supply in Wolseley. However we don't have the ravenous housing market that most other Canadian cities have, along with our small population and a somewhat slow economy, I wouldn't be surprised if the transition takes a long time.

I feel like I've shared this here before, but someone close to me wanted to be in the West End of Toronto but ended up buying in Parkdale in the mid 2000s when it was more affordable and crack was a big "problem" there. But given that she wasn't the only one who wanted to be close to the west end and the Trinity Bellwoods area, the area became pretty trendy. It was the closest a lot of people could get within their budget.

It seems like a similar situation to Wolseley and the West End in Winnipeg, but Winnipeg is on a much slower scale and without the crazy housing market of Toronto.

I used the "Wolseley North" line as I've heard it from some friends who bought houses north of Portage. They fit into the demographic you mention... younger people, often not in steady full time work but rather a whole bunch of smaller projects on the go and priced out of Wolseley. So it does seem that the southernmost parts of the West End and the West Broadway areas have gained a certain spillover from Wolseley.

Originally Posted by DirtWednesday

The west end is the best place to go for international food cravings. No question about it.

No argument there. The West End has incredible variety when it comes to food.

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

You are indeed correct in that observation. It does get grittier the farther east you get. That I can’t deny. The swath boxed in between Colony/Isabel, Notre Dame/Cumberland, Portage, and Sherbrook/Maryland is certainly the poorest. However, going back to the 80’s and the 90’s, according to many of my neighbours who are in their 30’s to 60’s that have lived on my block on the west side of Arlington, back then roaming gangs were completely the norm and they say you couldn’t be out walking on the street after 8pm without danger. Two storey houses on my block also sold for 20-40000 in the 90’s and every second or third house was an absentee-landlord rooming house. Currently there are no more rooming houses on the block at all, and houses of that description around here now go for minimum 230k for maintained-but-not-updated. Increased neighbourhood vibrancy on a house-by-house, block-by-block basis is apparent.

So yes indeed problems in the wider area are still present, but mainly my take on the improvement is the long take, averaged over. I expect that over another 20 years it will continue to renew north-eastward, as more properties deteriorate to dereliction and are razed and rebuilt on, and increased social supports continue to get people to a better place.

Also to note is the very noticeable increase the past few years of wide lots being split and replaced with two brand new homes. Several are in progress on Arlington near Ellice, Lipton near St Matthews, etc.

That's encouraging news. I know there was a lot of progress with respect to housing in the early 2000s with the likes of Westminster Housing Society and others doing their thing. It does seem that increased social services is going to be a bigger part of the revitalization formula for the West End and I hope that those services can meet the demand.

I know that increased immigration since the 90s has probably been a big factor in improving the West End through the early 2000s as that is a common landing area for new arrivals to Canada. But if numbers drop going forward (which could happen given that population pressure and its effect on housing markets is becoming a pressure point in Canada's biggest cities), I wonder what that might mean for the West End?

I am not bringing this up to condemn or write off the West End... I would like to see it thrive as a good urban neighbourhood for people from all walks of life. We can't really have a healthy and vibrant inner city if a huge residential area is suffering and in dire straits.

[Spocket]

I'm actually rather surprised by all the negativity here about the city's current state.

I grew up in Winnipeg, left to live in other cities for a few years here and there and finally left the country for 11 years to return just last summer. The difference is night and day.

That being said, the more things change, the more they stay the same. In the 90's it was crack. Now it's meth. Same shit as far as society is concerned. But either my perspective has changed or it's not at all just in my head. Neighbourhoods have absolutely seen a vast improvement in investment since I left and returned. My own neighbourhood (which, really, I'm only actually basing my opinion on the few blocks in the general vicinity of the house I grew up in) is getting close to unrecognizable. I drive the city every day and I see the same thing all over the city. Of course that rejuvenation is slower in the less desirable areas of the city but the fact that even exists is a monumental improvement.

What WinCitySparky said above about the price of a home in the core area in the 90's is absolutely spot on. I remember seeing a lot for sale for something like nine thousand back then. It was those low prices that attracted the gentrification.

And we've seen more construction in the past 10 years than we saw after 1990 until about 2010 or so. The city I grew up in was completely stagnant. This new city is vibrant and shows signs of life again. One thing is that we've finally stopped trying to jam square pegs into round holes, so that's a huge improvement. We've finally started seeing investment in downtown residential which is what the doctor's been ordering for the past half century or more. The city "leaders" always had this moronic notion that if only they could just pump enough money into propping up retail, it would be the 1930's again or something. Those days are gone and if they're coming back, we won't be around for it but at least we're finally going in the right direction.

We've got a mass rapid transit system. Yes, it pales in comparison to what we should have had but maybe we'll get a visionary mayor in the future with the balls to dream again.

I know most of us think it's been done all wrong but there's noticeable growth of the city again with more cropping up all the time. I agree, it IS done wrong but the fact that it's done at all is what gives me hope.

The only thing the city lacks is a proper roadway system for a growing city. Yes, we've proven we can get along just fine without a freeway cutting through our core but we should be working to get rid of lights, not add them to our "high speed" routes. On the positive side, the province, at least, has finally decided to join the 20th century and who knows, maybe even the 21st century if they ever figure out what year it is right now.

In any case, there's so much less call for pessimism now than there was for decades before. I think we're beating the wrong horse at this point. The new normal is actual growth even if we're still not a boom town of any kind.

[esquire]

^ Oh yeah, if you go back to my original posts in this thread from a few years ago you will see that by and large I acknowledge that things have been changing for the better.

I suppose in some respects, things have improved so much that the areas where that hasn't necessarily happened, the neighbourhoods that have been left out for one reason or another are exceptionally jarring to see now. The West End is one of those areas. Most other Canadian cities don't have such a troubled area immediately adjacent to their downtown area, and as noted, the most troubled parts are the ones closest to downtown which makes those problems extra prominent.

[ue]

I do see some parallels between Toronto's Parkdale and Winnipeg's West End. It does feel like the West End will inevitably gentrify as people are priced out of Wolseley and eventually, West Broadway. Despite some abandoned convenience stores, there are still a lot of businesses on Ellice and Sargent, and the area is one of the more vibrant in the city.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Oh yeah, if you go back to my original posts in this thread from a few years ago you will see that by and large I acknowledge that things have been changing for the better.

I suppose in some respects, things have improved so much that the areas where that hasn't necessarily happened, the neighbourhoods that have been left out for one reason or another are exceptionally jarring to see now. The West End is one of those areas. Most other Canadian cities don't have such a troubled area immediately adjacent to their downtown area, and as noted, the most troubled parts are the ones closest to downtown which makes those problems extra prominent.

I mean "troubled" is a loaded term, but Vancouver, Edmonton, Toronto, and Hamilton have low-income areas adjacent to (and in some cases within) the downtown core. Winnipeg is also a very polarized city. It isn't really thought of as wealthy like Calgary or Toronto are, but there is some considerable wealth in the city. Wellington Crescent, River Heights, Tuxedo, Charleswood, Kingston Row, and so on are a testament to this. But it definitely does have acute poverty issues that I think only Vancouver rivals. The solution definitely isn't gentrification via Wolseley-fying those areas, though.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Spocket

We've got a mass rapid transit system. Yes, it pales in comparison to what we should have had but maybe we'll get a visionary mayor in the future with the balls to dream again.

Honestly, Winnipeg probably has the most dysfunctional transit system I've used in Canada. The blue line is a joke of a BRT system. I used to think transit planning was bad in Alberta, and then I moved here. It's no wonder why all the anti-car people I know here just bike everywhere instead of bothering with the bus. It's hilarious how LRT still isn't even on the table for decades from now.

The only thing the city lacks is a proper roadway system for a growing city. Yes, we've proven we can get along just fine without a freeway cutting through our core but we should be working to get rid of lights, not add them to our "high speed" routes. On the positive side, the province, at least, has finally decided to join the 20th century and who knows, maybe even the 21st century if they ever figure out what year it is right now.

I don't know if I agree with this either. Most of the high-speed roadways are terrible stroads that cut through otherwise walkable areas. Portage, Main, St Mary's, Henderson, Notre Dame, and Logan are great examples of this. I almost think it would have been better if Winnipeg just built a freeway (as awful as they are) so that the city's main streets weren't turned over so readily to automobiles. The solution isn't to remove lights or stop adding them on roads like Portage or Main or Logan, it's to add them, make driving less convenient, and properly invest in alternative modes of transport. The city has done some of this in some places, but it often leaves a lot to be desired.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

I mean "troubled" is a loaded term, but Vancouver, Edmonton, Toronto, and Hamilton have low-income areas adjacent to (and in some cases within) the downtown core. Winnipeg is also a very polarized city. It isn't really thought of as wealthy like Calgary or Toronto are, but there is some considerable wealth in the city. Wellington Crescent, River Heights, Tuxedo, Charleswood, Kingston Row, and so on are a testament to this. But it definitely does have acute poverty issues that I think only Vancouver rivals. The solution definitely isn't gentrification via Wolseley-fying those areas, though.

The West End was generally a working class area for as far back as anyone alive can remember. It hasn't been a wealthy area in living memory, if it ever was before then. It probably won't ever be fully gentrified, unless maybe in a West Broadway sense where you still have the occasional drug house next to a nice restored period home. But in recent years the West End seems to have descended from the hardscrabble but orderly neighbourhood it was before into one that looks much more chaotic... and I doubt the chaos is doing its residents any favours.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

The West End was generally a working class area for as far back as anyone alive can remember. It hasn't been a wealthy area in living memory, if it ever was before then. It probably won't ever be fully gentrified, unless maybe in a West Broadway sense where you still have the occasional drug house next to a nice restored period home. But in recent years the West End seems to have descended from the hardscrabble but orderly neighbourhood it was before into one that looks much more chaotic... and I doubt the chaos is doing its residents any favours.

I'm not arguing that the West End was previously wealthy. I simply stated there is an understated wealth in Winnipeg and the city overall feels very polarized socioeconomically. There is both Tuxedo and the inner North End. Considering you and others have already branded the block north of Portage as "Wolseley North" - which is I think a very real phenomenon occurring on the edges of the West End, in tandem with rising real estate values others have echoed, it feels as though it is inevitable those trends will continue and further encroach upon the existing low-income population.

I also live in the West End (and was familiar with it years ago) and will echo what another poster said who also lives in the area -- a passerby (such as yourself) may take one look at the now abandoned 7-11 from a vehicle and make some judgements, but the area isn't that scary and chaotic. There's poor people, and some of them have substance abuse issues, but that happens in the Exchange or in Vimy Ridge Park, too. Maybe if you're used to a sanitized built form in a place like Linden Woods it seems chaotic, but I wouldn't characterize the area as dangerous.

We should also acknowledge that during the pandemic there has been a spike in deaths related to the opioid crisis. Many community supports shuttered or became far more limited due to covid and that has sure had an impact on many folks.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

It's dangerous at night. Don't believe me? Go take a walk around that now closed 7-11 at 2:00 am and tell me what happens.

[ue]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

It's dangerous at night. Don't believe me? Go take a walk around that now closed 7-11 at 2:00 am and tell me what happens.

I've done that, although I'm pretty sure that's not what most people do in any sort of neighbourhood with any regularity. The streets are generally pretty empty but on the occasion you see someone on a particular substance, if you mind your business, you'll be fine. Now try again to tell me something I don't know about my neighbourhood!

[WinCitySparky]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

It's dangerous at night. Don't believe me? Go take a walk around that now closed 7-11 at 2:00 am and tell me what happens.

This constant fixation on that one intersection. Seriously man. That corner is 100x quieter 24-7 now that the 7-11 and the apartment across the street are closed anyway. Step out of your BMW and walk the side streets in the afternoon instead mkay? I don’t know what you’re doing up walking at 2 anyways. Otherwise keep on driving, we don’t need any freaked out peeps over here in the hood worrying about us for nothing.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

This constant fixation on that one intersection. Seriously man. That corner is 100x quieter 24-7 now that the 7-11 and the apartment across the street are closed anyway.

You have to admit it is a wild looking corner. It was quite a sight I saw... boarded up buildings, large amounts of trash strewn about, people just lying there sprawled out on the pavement. I'm honestly not sure where else in Canada you could witness a scene like that. It seemed pretty chaotic to me, and it's something that would have been hard to imagine years ago when I was a regular at that 7-Eleven.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

You have to admit it is a wild looking corner. It was quite a sight I saw... boarded up buildings, large amounts of trash strewn about, people just lying there sprawled out on the pavement. I'm honestly not sure where else in Canada you could witness a scene like that. It seemed pretty chaotic to me, and it's something that would have been hard to imagine years ago when I was a regular at that 7-Eleven.

Off the top of my head...
- Winnipeg's own North End
- Edmonton's Boyle St and McCauley
- Vancouver's Downtown Eastside
- Toronto's Regent Park

I've also witnessed "chaotic" situations in the downtowns of Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, and Montreal.

I'm not denying there are structural issues manifesting in places like the West End, but many who don't live in the area seem intent on hyperbolizing how "bad" the neighbourhood is. And if it's that concerning to you, then what are you doing to ameliorate the situation? Are you volunteering, donating to orgs, assisting the poor, talking with people in the community, working against systemic abuse via the government and cops, educating yourself on why these issues occur, as well as advocating for safe injection sites, educational resources, good quality affordable housing, more funding for community orgs, well funded healthcare, and so on? Or are you just fixating on a 7-11 and something you saw once and writing off the whole area as "troubled"?

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I grew up in Winnipeg, left to live in other cities for a few years here and there and finally left the country for 11 years to return just last summer. The difference is night and day.

You should have seen it five years ago. People are negative because things are going in the wrong direction; a lot of hard-won progress has been wiped out.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

This constant fixation on that one intersection. Seriously man. That corner is 100x quieter 24-7 now that the 7-11 and the apartment across the street are closed anyway.

Surely you see that there's a problem when closing businesses and boarding up buildings make for an improvement.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by biguc

You should have seen it five years ago. People are negative because things are going in the wrong direction; a lot of hard-won progress has been wiped out.

Yeah, that's the issue I'm getting at here. I'm not trying to malign the neighbourhood or suggest that it's a terrible place to live or that the people living there are bad or anything like that.

It's simply an observation that on the surface at least, after improving noticeably for quite a few years, things now appear to be trending in a negative direction. It is certainly possible that other neighbourhoods are moving in a similar direction, but it's simply not as visible as it is with the West End. The change has been quite stark.

When I first joined this forum, Harry Lehotsky was a prominent community leader working to improve the West End and make it a better place for everyone. Unfortunately, he died at a relatively young age. I guess the question is who will step up and be this generation's Harry Lehotsky?

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by ue

I almost think it would have been better if Winnipeg just built a freeway (as awful as they are) so that the city's main streets weren't turned over so readily to automobiles.

But *a* freeway wouldn't have this effect -- Winnipeg has stroads going in all directions, so a whole network of freeways would be needed to relieve them. And if people think inner-city Winnipeg is in a bad state now, I can only imagine how bad it would be if it were sliced up by freeways and freeway interchanges. Even setting aside the fact that freeways create traffic rather than relieving it.

Like this plan from the 1950s, which would have single-handedly ruined West Broadway, Fort Rouge, St. Boniface, South Point Douglas, the North End, and the West End. Thankfully the Disraeli is the only part of that plan that came to fruition.

[GreyGarden]

I think part of it is we're talking about a huge amount of space. Maryland to Ellice to Wall St to Portage is basically the same amount of space as Wolseley and West Broadway.

I wouldn't say gentrification has begun in the West End yet. Further, I think given Winnipeg's small population, economy and overall market, I don't think we experience gentrification in the way that it's written and talked about. Most of the discussion on gentrification is centered on cities of over two million people, with exceptions of course like Hamilton. In Winnipeg you might look at an area like Osborne village over a 20 year span and realize that the houses and buildings are more well maintained now then they were previously and the average income in the area has increased, but you don't get that experience of being like "woah, this used to be a hardware store and a pawn shop and now its a wine bar and shoe store".

I think it's these blocks south of St. Matthews is where it'll become more noticeable in the next 10 years. These are all in the West End:

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8880...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8875...7i13312!8i6656

And this is also in the West End but further North:

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8945...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8936...7i13312!8i6656

It's clearly a pretty diverse area in terms of income. Further, while Wolseley is getting expensive it's not prohibitively expensive and West Broadway certainly isn't either. So I think that seepage north into the West End is still a long term view of the area.

I also saw another poster mention it, but the pandemic has impacted the services that the vulnerable rely on and their struggles have become more visible, even in busier richer cities. I don't think this is a Winnipeg exclusive.

For what it's worth, going past the boarded up 7-11 is a little jarring just in how ugly it is. It also doesn't help that there is a pawn shop across the street in a building that looks like its falling apart. That being said, a couple blocks east is this bakery that is so good and if you follow them on IG they really care about the area and community:

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8929...7i13312!8i6656

I do have a lot of hope for Ellice and the area generally. It's a great connection from a residential neighbourhood to downtown and the Exchange district. But, unless we experience some sort of economic and population "boom", I might just be a very old person before it sees any significant investment that turns it into a more "upscale" urbanish area.

I really don't think Winnipeg as a whole is regressing though. My neighbourhood, West Broadway, has seen definite improvements just in overall vibe and appearance and the commercial area around Sherbrook continues to improve in my opinion. For what it's worth, I really don't feel threatened or afraid of the people struggling in the area - I mind my own business and usually they do as well. I think there's still more that needs to be done in terms of making West Broadway, Osborne Village, Wolseley and the Exchange more urban and just nicer overall in order to bring them up to par with other urban areas in Canada, that if we start looking at the West End it'll only lead to frustration. I think all of the areas I just listed have improved over the last 5-10 years. People like to dump on OV, but I think the state of the commercial strip doesn't tell the whole story, the area is undeniably richer and seeing a lot more development then a number of years ago. The strip will respond to it.

[EdwardTH]

lol, this forum trying to address poverty, addictions and homelessness:


It's wild to see like 30 posts discussing the decline solely in terms of litter and boarded-up windows with zero mention of actually housing people, treating addictions or mental health issues. Hate to break it to you guys but you can't solve these issues with property development so as long as you keep defining "progress" as development and the state of storefronts then you're not helping anything or anyone.