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  #15901  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 3:45 AM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Agree, but I'm guessing the monies are earmarked towards certain uses like infrastructure improvements or expansion. AFAIK, the issues about the headways are more to do with staff shortages than anything else and not really to do with the infrastructure itself.
Reasoning is recent with staffing shortages. This was an issue before too, though not as bad.

I know the money from the Feds is for expansion and such. I wish it could be applied to fixing what is current before expanding.

Last edited by pip; Aug 3, 2022 at 4:07 AM.
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  #15902  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 2:13 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by pip View Post
Expanding the Redline? Fix what you have now first. Clean it up and get the trains clean and safer and faster
This is the argument that every online commentator makes about everything. "Invest in cancer research!? Have you seen these potholes?!" "Free education for children? We have a deficit last time I checked!" "Return to the office? First we need high-quality masks, investments in ventilation, and a permanent shift to an impossible post-work form of utopian socialism."

Better is better. But transit agencies should build capacity when they have the opportunity. They don't come along that often.
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  #15903  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 2:57 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by pip View Post
Reasoning is recent with staffing shortages. This was an issue before too, though not as bad.

I know the money from the Feds is for expansion and such. I wish it could be applied to fixing what is current before expanding.
They could even call it something like "Red & Purple Modernization (RPM)". RPM is a part of the larger "Red Ahead" project, which also includes the Red Line extension to 130th. They are taking your advice.

Let's not forget the other recent, large CTA projects like the "Your New Blue". Lot's of on-going system improvement projects.
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  #15904  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 4:28 PM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
This is the argument that every online commentator makes about everything. "Invest in cancer research!? Have you seen these potholes?!" "Free education for children? We have a deficit last time I checked!" "Return to the office? First we need high-quality masks, investments in ventilation, and a permanent shift to an impossible post-work form of utopian socialism."

Better is better. But transit agencies should build capacity when they have the opportunity. They don't come along that often.
The biggest problem with the Red Line Extension as proposed is that the cost of it is significant enough and the ridership potential from the 4 new stations small enough that it has the ROI of Lehman Brothers in 2008. It would not be happening if not for the skin color of the area residents. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about helping disadvantaged communities but is this the best use of tax dollars to achieve that goal? I also don't buy the argument that this is needed because the 95th yard is capacity constrained. There is plenty of available land around the 95th yard to expand it amongst the 94/57 road spaghetti.

Not that it matters anymore since it seems almost certain to happen at this point. It just frustrates me that we're going to blow this rare funding on something so wasteful.
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  #15905  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 4:59 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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This article is old, but it's still informative to read when it comes to this topic: https://chicagoreader.com/news-polit...to-fix-the-el/
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  #15906  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 5:12 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
The biggest problem with the Red Line Extension as proposed is that the cost of it is significant enough and the ridership potential from the 4 new stations small enough that it has the ROI of Lehman Brothers in 2008. It would not be happening if not for the skin color of the area residents.
The 95th station is the 4th most popular stop in the entire system (behind Red Line Chicago, Blue Line O'Hare, and Red Line Lake). That seems to imply there would be some demand for an extension from that terminus. Maybe there would be more demand to the west of 95th, but it seems clear by existing usage that there is demand in the area.

Also, this:

Quote:
Combined, the Red, Green, Orange and Pink Lines provide 38 stations to South Side residents, according to City of Chicago data. This works out to one station per 3.5 square miles or 31,579 residents per one station. North Siders, by contrast, have access to a combined 81 stations on the Blue, Pink, Green, Purple, Red and Brown Lines (this does not include extra-municipal stops on the Purple and Yellow lines). On the North Side, there is one station per 1.3 square miles or 18,516 residents per one station.
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
There is plenty of available land around the 95th yard to expand it amongst the 94/57 road spaghetti.
This sounds expensive in itself. It also doesn't increase access to the people who don't currently have it. Surely, the complaint would simply morph into "We are paying all this money for no additional lines or stops?"
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  #15907  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2022, 5:44 PM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
The 95th station is the 4th most popular stop in the entire system (behind Red Line Chicago, Blue Line O'Hare, and Red Line Lake). That seems to imply there would be some demand for an extension from that terminus. Maybe there would be more demand to the west of 95th, but it seems clear by existing usage that there is demand in the area.

Also, this:

This sounds expensive in itself. It also doesn't increase access to the people who don't currently have it. Surely, the complaint would simply morph into "We are paying all this money for no additional lines or stops?"
It's the 4th busiest stop because of the many busses that radiate out from there to all over the South Side. That wouldn't change with the Red Line extension. The proposed locations for the extended stations are in areas where almost nobody lives. The population density is closer to that of Naperville than it is North Center. For that density a bus is an appropriate transit solution, not a heavy rail line. And the idea that the extension would spur economic development in the area is a little far-fetched given the numerous existing stations that are surrounded by acres of empty fields (and are much closer to downtown).

If the options are Red Line Extension or nothing then sure, build the thing. But there are so many better ways to spend the money, even on the South Side.

Not to mention the Metra Electric already serves the area in question with a direct rail connection to the Loop.... albeit with shit frequency. Spend money improving that service instead. It'll cost a fraction of the $3b+ the RLE will cost.

Extending the Green Line both east to Woodlawn (Obama Library) and west to Midway would serve far more people and improve system connectivity. Otherwise the best investments on the Southside revolve around Metra Electric improvements.

Last edited by Kngkyle; Aug 3, 2022 at 6:01 PM.
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  #15908  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 10:36 PM
JK47 JK47 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
If the options are Red Line Extension or nothing then sure, build the thing. But there are so many better ways to spend the money, even on the South Side.

No there aren't. You forget that this project is funded using Federal money and the rules mean that:


Quote:
Not to mention the Metra Electric already serves the area in question with a direct rail connection to the Loop.... albeit with shit frequency. Spend money improving that service instead. It'll cost a fraction of the $3b+ the RLE will cost.

None of the above qualify for CIG grants under New Starts. Must be either a new guideway or an extension to an existing one. Further...


Quote:
Extending the Green Line both east to Woodlawn (Obama Library) and west to Midway would serve far more people and improve system connectivity. Otherwise the best investments on the Southside revolve around Metra Electric improvements.

Extensions must add capacity, by over 10%, to systems that are at or beyond capacity currently. The Green Line is certainly NOT operating at capacity.
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  #15909  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 10:47 PM
JK47 JK47 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
It would not be happening if not for the skin color of the area residents. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about helping disadvantaged communities but is this the best use of tax dollars to achieve that goal? I also don't buy the argument that this is needed because the 95th yard is capacity constrained. There is plenty of available land around the 95th yard to expand it amongst the 94/57 road spaghetti.

Not that it matters anymore since it seems almost certain to happen at this point. It just frustrates me that we're going to blow this rare funding on something so wasteful.

It's not just the racism on display in this post but just the casual nature of it that is shocking. To conclude, due to ignorance on your part, that no other reason exists for supporting this project OTHER THAN the race of the community it impacts is racist.

Furthermore, to declare that you are for "helping disadvantaged communities" but not when doing so "wastes" precious funds is not only racist but an example of how systemic racism is self-perpetuating. Yes, as it turns out, decades of racist policies that dictated how how the fabric of our community was laid out, in terms of infrastructure, funding, services, loans, etc, has had an impact. To the extent that making corrections and attempting to improve the local infrastructure is significantly more expensive and less convenient than bolting on projects to areas that were more..."fortunate"...in terms of how resources were allocated. Richer and whiter communities have had resources lavished on them for decades while other areas are neglected.

Penalizing neglected communities, by steering funds away from them, because the neglect has made improvements expensive is just utter bullshit.
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  #15910  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 11:01 PM
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(Not sure why we're discussing RLE here rather than in the transit thread.)

^But it's plain and simple a bad transit project, with a cost per new rider that must be approaching $100 ($6 was historically the general FTA threshold for worthwhile projects). The cost has somehow soared from $2.2 billion in 2018 to $3.6 billion now. Transit should be put where there’s density (of residents or jobs). Not where it’s cheap; or to pay political debts, or as an incredibly inefficient form of reparations.

It's a back-asswards way to do planning to pour billions of dollars into the most expensive possible solution to having built Altgeld Gardens in the wrong place. Just because CHA made a huge mistake in the 1940s doesn't mean we should just keep pouring money into it. Every single household within a mile of the new 130th terminal (about 3000 households) could be built a new $300,000 home within walking distance of an existing Green Line station for a quarter of the cost of this boondoggle—and the Red Line wouldn't thereafter be wasting countless service hours running empty trains back and forth to the forest preserve.

Let's see. In what parts of the city might new transit investment actually result in usage?


Last edited by Mr Downtown; Aug 4, 2022 at 11:11 PM.
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  #15911  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 11:03 PM
thegoatman thegoatman is offline
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is it racism or using common sense? Watched this video of Dorval Carter talking about the extension and not once did he bring up statistics on why it would make sense. Just said a bunch of woke buzzwords. "inclusivity" "diversity" etc..the far southside is basically suburbia, all 4 of the new stations are gonna be fucking park and rides. How about and L extension to Humboldt (an actual dense area) or a brown blue line connection? Or if we still wanna extend the red line, how about extending it to the south lakefront? An actual dense area lacking CTA connection.

Just increase Metra service down there. Waste of billions of dollars. Another dumb proposal I saw awhile back is extending the blue line to Melrose Park, idiotic. We badly need more service intown, not suburbia

thank you Mr Downtown for that graphic. Just shows how uneeded this project is right now. We got a once in a generation time to extend the L and this is what we're doing, lol. This is literally Lightfoot and Carter trying to satisfy their woke/progressive congregates instead of actually looking at what works.

Anyway, i'm getting off topic but that needs to be said.
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  #15912  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 11:39 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is offline
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Originally Posted by thegoatman View Post
is it racism or using common sense? Watched this video of Dorval Carter talking about the extension and not once did he bring up statistics on why it would make sense. Just said a bunch of woke buzzwords. "inclusivity" "diversity" etc..the far southside is basically suburbia, all 4 of the new stations are gonna be fucking park and rides. How about and L extension to Humboldt (an actual dense area) or a brown blue line connection? Or if we still wanna extend the red line, how about extending it to the south lakefront? An actual dense area lacking CTA connection.

It’s no use to complain now.

The Federal Government doesn’t exactly shift funds from one project to another in a timespan less than a few decades, and the Red Line extension has been in the works for a long long time.

The city chose the wrong project back then, but it’s either this or a useless trolley in Baltimore or something. There’s a strong chance the Red Line is truly the best of a group of bad eligible proposals.

And I’m not exactly going to be up in arms over federal government money and South Red Line neighborhood TIF.

Oh well, maybe the Chicagoans in year 2100 will have more need for the extension.
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  #15913  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 11:49 PM
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I'm not against the RLE, but I think that money would be better spent on rebuilding the demolished Green Line branch.
I also hope it doesn't negatively impact current Red Line service, which hasn't been great.
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  #15914  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2022, 11:52 PM
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Klippenstein Klippenstein is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
According to this map it seems like a Kedzie Ave connector that extended to Marquette Park and connected to the redline near Granville would be ideal.
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  #15915  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2022, 2:15 AM
Chi-Sky21 Chi-Sky21 is offline
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Brown line connection to Blue then blue triple tracked O'Hare for express. Frequent rapid bus setup on Western and or Ashland.
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  #15916  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2022, 3:57 AM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
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Originally Posted by JK47 View Post
It's not just the racism on display in this post but just the casual nature of it that is shocking. To conclude, due to ignorance on your part, that no other reason exists for supporting this project OTHER THAN the race of the community it impacts is racist.

Furthermore, to declare that you are for "helping disadvantaged communities" but not when doing so "wastes" precious funds is not only racist but an example of how systemic racism is self-perpetuating. Yes, as it turns out, decades of racist policies that dictated how how the fabric of our community was laid out, in terms of infrastructure, funding, services, loans, etc, has had an impact. To the extent that making corrections and attempting to improve the local infrastructure is significantly more expensive and less convenient than bolting on projects to areas that were more..."fortunate"...in terms of how resources were allocated. Richer and whiter communities have had resources lavished on them for decades while other areas are neglected.

Penalizing neglected communities, by steering funds away from them, because the neglect has made improvements expensive is just utter bullshit.
I knew someone would come at me with this baloney. Others have already since responded with further evidence as to why this project makes zero sense and how the entire sales pitch for it revolves around race and nothing more. And while it may be partially funded by the federal government that doesn't make it any less of a waste of taxpayer dollars.
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  #15917  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2022, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by r18tdi View Post
I'm not against the RLE, but I think that money would be better spent on rebuilding the demolished Green Line branch.
I also hope it doesn't negatively impact current Red Line service, which hasn't been great.
Even if the Woodlawn community wanted the extension (there is no indication they have changed their mind since the 90s), the Feds will probably refuse to fund it for a 2nd time.

We blew our chance when we accepted Federal money to rebuild that line in the 90s and then lit that money on fire tearing it down months later. The steel beams still exist in a CTA yard, rusting away for eternity because the Feds would not allow the steel to be sold for scrap.

If CTA ever wants to rebuild that branch, it will have to be with local money only.
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  #15918  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2022, 2:40 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
For an actual comparison, we would need to look at density of each station before the trains were built.

Do you have the same concerns about spending over $2 billion rebuilding stations and double-decking track along the Red/Purple Line? Just because the CTA made a mistake 80 years ago by not building more capacity. Or the $500 million spent rebuilding the Blue Line because CTA didn't have enough electricity to run trains.

What was the cost per new rider on those projects?
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  #15919  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2022, 2:55 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
(Not sure why we're discussing RLE here rather than in the transit thread.)

^But it's plain and simple a bad transit project, with a cost per new rider that must be approaching $100 ($6 was historically the general FTA threshold for worthwhile projects). The cost has somehow soared from $2.2 billion in 2018 to $3.6 billion now. Transit should be put where there’s density (of residents or jobs). Not where it’s cheap; or to pay political debts, or as an incredibly inefficient form of reparations.

It's a back-asswards way to do planning to pour billions of dollars into the most expensive possible solution to having built Altgeld Gardens in the wrong place. Just because CHA made a huge mistake in the 1940s doesn't mean we should just keep pouring money into it. Every single household within a mile of the new 130th terminal (about 3000 households) could be built a new $300,000 home within walking distance of an existing Green Line station for a quarter of the cost of this boondoggle—and the Red Line wouldn't thereafter be wasting countless service hours running empty trains back and forth to the forest preserve.

Let's see. In what parts of the city might new transit investment actually result in usage?
Apropos of this, what DO you think the best new heavy rail investment would be? I've always been a bit skeptical of the circle line. Obviously BRT would be great on Ashland and/or Western. Clinton street subway? Brown line extension?
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  #15920  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2022, 3:02 PM
mark0 mark0 is offline
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Originally Posted by thegoatman View Post
is it racism or using common sense? Watched this video of Dorval Carter talking about the extension and not once did he bring up statistics on why it would make sense. Just said a bunch of woke buzzwords. "inclusivity" "diversity" etc..the far southside is basically suburbia, all 4 of the new stations are gonna be fucking park and rides. How about and L extension to Humboldt (an actual dense area) or a brown blue line connection? Or if we still wanna extend the red line, how about extending it to the south lakefront? An actual dense area lacking CTA connection.

Just increase Metra service down there. Waste of billions of dollars. Another dumb proposal I saw awhile back is extending the blue line to Melrose Park, idiotic. We badly need more service intown, not suburbia

thank you Mr Downtown for that graphic. Just shows how uneeded this project is right now. We got a once in a generation time to extend the L and this is what we're doing, lol. This is literally Lightfoot and Carter trying to satisfy their woke/progressive congregates instead of actually looking at what works.

Anyway, i'm getting off topic but that needs to be said.
The voters of Chicago get the ineptitude they deserve.
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