CF Pacific Centre Developments - Page 204

jollyburger · #**4061** Posted **Oct 10, 2023, 8:28 PM**

Didn't Loblaws already try the mid-tier fashion brand with the Joe Fresh experiment?

jollyburger · #**4062** Posted **Oct 10, 2023, 8:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by s211

CF would not own and operate the hotel. They would probably be doing either an operational agreement or leasehold of the core and shell. I would think they would go for the latter.

I wonder what the terms of the original lease for Four Seasons was on... I know they renewed around 2000 but you assume if it was lucrative they wouldn't have been pushing so hard to kick them out.

Changing City · #**4063** Posted **Oct 10, 2023, 8:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vin

Vanity?

And it still hasn't improved from before. In fact, it looks worse now.

It isn't finished. But you knew that.

officedweller · #**4064** Posted **Oct 11, 2023, 6:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by C3YVR

From what I have heard, it was W Hotels but they felt they were being treated as a retailer and not a hotel operator (and were asked for a large amount of capital) and left CF long ago.

"being treated as a retailer" to me means that CF was probably asking for percentage rent.

s211 · #**4065** Posted **Oct 13, 2023, 12:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

"being treated as a retailer" to me means that CF was probably asking for percentage rent.

I've seen ground leases that had provisions for percentage rent, particularly if ground rent is fixed in year 1, and increases thereafter are based on an income formula, so it's not without precedence.

jollyburger · #**4066** Posted **Oct 13, 2023, 12:36 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

"being treated as a retailer" to me means that CF was probably asking for percentage rent.

Pretty good overview on how hotel management contracts seem to work.

https://hvs.com/article/7993-Hotel-M...acts-in-Europe

Four Seasons had a legal fight with one of their operators in California/New York recently

Quote:

At the heart of the dispute between Warner and Four Seasons were differing expectations regarding operating costs and profit margins. Luxury hotels operate on slimmer margins than their $1,000-per-night price tags suggest; increases in labor costs and general inflation have worsened the economics, sending rates up 69% from 2019, according to data from Virtuoso. Four Seasons has reportedly balked at raising rates at the two Warner-owned hotels, despite industry trends in that direction.

According to a statement published on the Four Seasons website, both properties will reopen in fall 2024, though much work remains. The first priority will be to rehire furloughed staff and employees in California and New York. Bringing the hotels back to operational status will take time, given the extended hiatus; in Midtown Manhattan, curtains have been drawn on all windows for three years, and fine print on the hotel’s website has said that “substantial infrastructure and maintenance work is expected to last well into 2023.” The Santa Barbara property’s website, meanwhile, had until Thursday described the hotel as “temporarily closed until further notice.”

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/the-four...2024-1.1954776

officedweller · #**4067** Posted **Oct 13, 2023, 2:35 AM**

Interesting.

The old agreement with Four Seasons is described as a "lease" in news reports, so I guess that the new operator would likely be contracted under an operator or management contract rather than a lease... unless "treated like a retailer" means CF wanted a more traditional lease rather than a variable fee based on operating profits (or losses) under an operator or management contract?

https://www.timescolonist.com/busine...ispute-4661734

jollyburger · #**4068** Posted **Oct 13, 2023, 2:53 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

Interesting.

The old agreement with Four Seasons is described as a "lease" in news reports, so I guess that the new operator would likely be contracted under an operator or management contract rather than a lease... unless "treated like a retailer" means CF wanted a more traditional lease rather than a variable fee based on operating profits (or losses) under an operator or management contract?

https://www.timescolonist.com/busine...ispute-4661734

There was some talk before their last renewal that they would walk away because it was one of the few properties that they had "ownership" with the leasehold since they prefer to just be a hotel operator.

From their 1998 Annual Report

Quote:

The Corporation has been in discussions with the landlords of the Four Seasons Hotel Vancouver and The Pierre in New York since last 1994 to revise their respective lease structures to allocate major capital expenditures requirements, and in the case of Vancouver, property taxes, more equitably between the parties. To preserve its economic interest in the Vancouver leasehold, the Corporation gave notice to the landlord that it intends to renew the lease for the Four Seasons Hotel for a further 20-year period beginning in 2020. Discussions with the landlord relating to the realty taxes are continuing. The extended lease terms are generally consistent with the existing lease, which provides for a maximum lease payment of approprimately $2.2 million annually.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...ls-and-resorts

I wonder what Holt, Microsoft or Apple paying annually to CF.. And some reports mention the property was losing a few million a year at certain points, not sure if that was just a one off...

officedweller · #**4069** Posted **Oct 19, 2023, 10:06 PM**

Temporary displays up in the Toronto Eaton Centre Nordstrom,
I wonder if there's anything similar planned for Vancouver?

https://www.blogto.com/radar/2023/10...tre-nordstrom/

Vin · #**4070** Posted **Oct 20, 2023, 12:41 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Changing City

It isn't finished. But you knew that.

And why the huge delay if they are managing so well? Remember that they criticized Four Seasons Hotel for being sub-par. CF is way worse to cause the abandonment of a previously good money-making building.

C3YVR · #**4071** Posted **Oct 28, 2023, 2:03 AM**

My guess is there is a good chance Eataly will take part of the Nordstrom space at Pacific Centre. A third Toronto Eataly was just announced with two at CF malls, so it seems highly likely they would partner with CF on a Vancouver location. It also makes sense for CF as they will now have to compete with Oakridge and Eataly could help with that.

https://retail-insider.com/retail-in...-at-don-mills/

officedweller · #**4072** Posted **Oct 28, 2023, 5:48 AM**

That could make good use of the 3rd floor restaurant space over looking Robson Square. I wonder if they'd punch out more windows?

NewfBC · #**4073** Posted **Oct 28, 2023, 6:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

That could make good use of the 3rd floor restaurant space over looking Robson Square. I wonder if they'd punch out more windows?

Eately is mostly a grocery store.. it doesn't need a lot of windows.

Ron.

jollyburger · #**4074** Posted **Oct 28, 2023, 2:38 PM**

And for anyone that doesn't read the article it literally says

Quote:

There are rumours in the industry that Eataly has been in negotiations to open a location in a prominent retail space in downtown Vancouver.

It's either in Nordstroms or I guess The Post?

NewfBC · #**4075** Posted **Oct 28, 2023, 4:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jollyburger

And for anyone that doesn't read the article it literally says

It's either in Nordstroms or I guess The Post?

Hmm.. the article stated one of the new locations in GTA is 25k sq ft (The original is 55k), the food hall space in The Post is 26k.. so I guess it's possible. That would be a better option vs JR Group I think.

Ron.

officedweller · #**4076** Posted **Oct 29, 2023, 6:13 AM**

The relationship with CF for the other Toronto locations leans to the Nordstrom space at CF Pacific Centre, which would be bookended with Westons-owned retailers!

NewfBC · #**4077** Posted **Oct 29, 2023, 4:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

The relationship with CF for the other Toronto locations leans to the Nordstrom space at CF Pacific Centre, which would be bookended with Westons-owned retailers!

The Westons also own the City Market going into The Post (well, it's franchised ultimately).. with an Eately going in there, perhaps they could share some back end (warehouse, etc.)...

Ron.