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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by vanatox View Post
Montreal would perform the worst of the three in the "visiting friends and family" category since its population has less link with the rest of Canada (relatively speaking). Those family and friends links are more within Quebec or close proximity. This also explain why Montreal has relatively less domestic passengers at YUL.
If I take my dinner table conversation from last Saturday with two kids in Cantley, Québec, and transpose it to, say, a posh exurban house of the outskirts of Stuttgart, Germany...

Dirk and Elise are about 20 years old. For their first trip overseas Dirk wants to take Elise to Canada. Not the US because, you know, Trump and guns and whatnot.

What Canadian city does Dirk say they're going to as the focus of the trip?

Do you guys see that city as... Toronto?

Sorry, but I don't. (Absent other influencing factors, like Dirk wanting to do his master's at the U of T or something.)

But Vancouver, definitely. Perhaps moreso than Montreal even.
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:23 PM
Zeej Zeej is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If I take my dinner table conversation from last Saturday with two kids in Cantley, Québec, and transpose it to, say, a posh exurban house of the outskirts of Stuttgart, Germany...

Dirk and Elise are about 20 years old. For their first trip overseas Dirk wants to take Elise to Canada. Not the US because, you know, Trump and guns and whatnot.

What Canadian city does Dirk say they're going to as the focus of the trip?

Do you guys see that city as... Toronto?

Sorry, but I don't. (Absent other influencing factors, like Dirk wanting to do his master's at the U of T or something.)

But Vancouver, definitely. Perhaps moreso than Montreal even.
I'm not so sure. Maybe 10 years ago I would have agreed but Toronto has really put itself into the broader cultural sphere recently and I think that extends beyond North America.

Dirk and Elise from Stuttgart may be more interested in a hefty modern metropolis than an old historic centre and/or some festivals (intentionally over-simplifying but I find that Toronto's marketing is quite effective - particularly among a younger demographic i.e. 'Downtown Canada' (cringe))
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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:28 PM
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I'm not so sure. Maybe 10 years ago I would have agreed but Toronto has really put itself into the broader cultural sphere recently and I think that extends beyond North America.

Dirk from Stuttgart may be more interested in a hefty modern metropolis than an old historic centre and/or some festivals (intentionally over-simplifying but I find that Toronto's marketing is quite effective).
Maybe. (I guess if he's written off NYC because it's in the US...)
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:29 PM
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Quebec will probably hit 8.9 million by the end of this year, Montreal at 4,5 million in 2024.
A lot of growth in Southwestern Quebec, this region is made of the 5 administrative regions that encompass the Montreal metropolitan area. Montreal (2,040,000) - Laval (447,000) - Montérégie (1,475,000) - Laurentides (657,000) - Lanaudière (544,000)

about 5,100,000 as of July 1st 2022, and growing by at least 85k/year. Southwestern Quebec is +- 15,000km². The region is growing fast because of its cheaper housing market with very good quality of life and close proximity to Montreal for any kind of activity. This is more people than Phoenix, and would make Montreal the 10th most populous metropolitan area in the US if we would compare the MSA areas in km². The most comparable MSA in size compared to Montreal would be Seattle, but it had 1 million less people for the same area in km². The whole Montreal region is larger than people might think and only by looking at the MSAs stats that you realize its real size. Miami (9th) has about 1 million more people than Montreal for the same size , +-15,000 km².

The Outaouais region is considered the extreme southwest of the province.

Last edited by GreaterMontréal; Feb 22, 2023 at 8:52 PM.
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
Quebec will probably hit 8.9 million by the end of this year, Montreal at 4,5 million in 2024.
A lot of growth in Southwestern Quebec, this region is made of the 5 administrative regions that encompass the Montreal metropolitan area. Montreal (2,040,000) - Laval (447,000) - Montérégie (1,475,000) - Laurentides (657,000) - Lanaudière (544,000)

about 5,165,000 as of July 1st 2022, and growing by at least 85k/year. Southwestern Quebec

Southwestern Quebec , the Outaouais region is not included
The Outaouais if included would push the entire region over 5.5 million.
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If I take my dinner table conversation from last Saturday with two kids in Cantley, Québec, and transpose it to, say, a posh exurban house of the outskirts of Stuttgart, Germany...

Dirk and Elise are about 20 years old. For their first trip overseas Dirk wants to take Elise to Canada. Not the US because, you know, Trump and guns and whatnot.

What Canadian city does Dirk say they're going to as the focus of the trip?

Do you guys see that city as... Toronto?

Sorry, but I don't. (Absent other influencing factors, like Dirk wanting to do his master's at the U of T or something.)

But Vancouver, definitely. Perhaps moreso than Montreal even.
Nah. They would go the US no matter what. And rightly so, let’s be real.
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:43 PM
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Nah. They would go the US no matter what. And rightly so, let’s be real.
Agree, though you might be surprised.
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:43 PM
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In the off-chance the hypothetical German tourist chose Canada it may likely be "Banff"! Though really it depends on what they are into - there's no particular draw for any of our cities from an international perspective unless you're into cities (and there are in fact other people like that!). That being said I have met people overseas that are very interested in Toronto - it doesn't really lack the name recognition it did even a decade ago.

I know someone who owns a tourism business in South Africa - started in Joburg but now based offering tours both there and Cape Town. Weirdly enough did hear that they get far more German tourists in the former (far more British tourists in CT though). Not because they are particularly interested in the city, but because it's a jumping off point to spend a day or two before safari and they are looking for something to do. In that sense I could see tourists spending a day or two in Southern Ontario before flying to Western Canada.
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:45 PM
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I think the main factor influencing Toronto's tourist number is its large immigrant population, by far the largest in the country. This means that a lot of friends and family from elsewhere will visit.

That being said, Toronto is an amazing long weekend destination and I am happy I get to go there from time to time. The city has a lot to offer.
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:46 PM
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I think the "lag" of past glory or past renown can last for a long time or even in some cases never go away.

A good example is Madrid and Barcelona, with the latter still being the one that tugs at the most heart strings.

We live in Canada so we don't have a dog in that race, but how many times do you guys hear about people wanting to go to Barcelona versus Madrid? For my part, the last time was precisely last Saturday when we had dinner with friends and their daughter and her boyfriend we discussing plans for a trip this spring.

I am reminded that the last time I went to Spain, I was sitting at YUL waiting for a flight to Madrid and this very nice Madrileña (living in the northern NE US and flying out of Montreal) was expressing frustration to me about how Barcelona got all the hype and that Madrid was a great city in its own right.

Now that I think of it, it definitely reminded me of something.

Anyway, Madrid is actually a great city, and owing to more recent growth spurts probably now has a bit more big city oomph than Barcelona does.

While Barcelona is the legendary cultural city with the mark of the troubadors and the great merchant class, the beautiful sea, etc., Madrid is no slouch either, having been the capital of Spain for centuries, with all the regal splendour that comes with that, and the city from which scores of world-dominating colonial pursuits were decided and acted upon.
And yet, by many metrics including quality of life, Madrid tends to come out ahead of Barcelona.

As for "lag" - witness Vienna. More than a century past its best before date yet still with a patrician stick up its butt.
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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:51 PM
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And yet, by many metrics including quality of life, Madrid tends to come out ahead of Barcelona.

.
In this specific sub-discussion we are talking about renown and reputation as places to visit, not to live.

Barcelona also does appear more faded and worn than Madrid does. There is probably a Montreal-Toronto comparison in there somewhere too, though perhaps not so much in recent years.
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:53 PM
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I'm not so sure. Maybe 10 years ago I would have agreed but Toronto has really put itself into the broader cultural sphere recently and I think that extends beyond North America.

Dirk and Elise from Stuttgart may be more interested in a hefty modern metropolis than an old historic centre and/or some festivals (intentionally over-simplifying but I find that Toronto's marketing is quite effective - particularly among a younger demographic i.e. 'Downtown Canada' (cringe))
Toronto has the advantage of being convenient to other large cities like Montreal and Ottawa. I'd imagine that triangle (with Niagara Falls tacked on, or maybe Quebec City instead for people interested in Francophone culture) is probably the most common Canadian itinerary for overseas tourists. And for younger people, I'd guess that Toronto "is" Canada in pop culture terms.

Vancouver is lovely but it's also far from anything... pretty well any destination beyond Victoria and Whistler requires a trip to the airport. Even a Vancouver-Banff combo is not the logistically easiest thing to pull off. I'd bet Vancouver is a bigger deal for second visits to Canada as compared to first trips.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If I take my dinner table conversation from last Saturday with two kids in Cantley, Québec, and transpose it to, say, a posh exurban house of the outskirts of Stuttgart, Germany...

Dirk and Elise are about 20 years old. For their first trip overseas Dirk wants to take Elise to Canada. Not the US because, you know, Trump and guns and whatnot.

What Canadian city does Dirk say they're going to as the focus of the trip?

Do you guys see that city as... Toronto?

Sorry, but I don't. (Absent other influencing factors, like Dirk wanting to do his master's at the U of T or something.)

But Vancouver, definitely. Perhaps moreso than Montreal even.
A little surprised by the last sentence. Curious why Montreal would be a top destination of choice to a German or any European for that matter?

I’d imagine BC/Alberta as top destinations.
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by vanatox View Post
I think the main factor influencing Toronto's tourist number is its large immigrant population, by far the largest in the country. This means that a lot of friends and family from elsewhere will visit.

That being said, Toronto is an amazing long weekend destination and I am happy I get to go there from time to time. The city has a lot to offer.
You're right to point out that Toronto remains a great city to visit with lots of things to see and do.

But you get these discussions often in response to comments that Toronto because it's the biggest, leaves every other city in the dust on every metric.

I do think it does in terms of economic growth and potential, but I don't think that's the case when it comes to visitor interest compared to Montreal and Vancouver, who definitely hold their own extremely favourably vis-à-vis Toronto.

VFR, business traveller and transiting air passenger numbers notwithstanding.
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  #95  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:58 PM
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A little surprised by the last sentence. Curious why Montreal would be a top destination of choice to a German or any European for that matter?

I’d imagine BC/Alberta as top destinations.
I dunno but I think Montreal-Paris is the busiest transatlantic route to and from Canada, and I assume it's not just musicians and writers crossing in order to convince consumers on the other side of the pond to buy their stuff.

It's also one of the busiest transatlantic air connections between North America and Europe, well into the top 10.
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  #96  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:13 PM
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I dunno but I think Montreal-Paris is the busiest transatlantic route to and from Canada, and I assume it's not just musicians and writers crossing in order to convince consumers on the other side of the pond to buy their stuff.

It's also one of the busiest transatlantic air connections between North America and Europe, well into the top 10.
For busiest transatlantic routes Montreal-Paris is #5 and Toronto-London is #7. I’m assuming AirFrance has Montreal as a NA hub.

Busiest route from Germany is to Chicago. Not sure this means Chicago is top German destination either.
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  #97  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:21 PM
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Agree, though you might be surprised.
Maybe, but from my experience with Euro friends and their relatives, they are not much interested by our urban offerings. They want to see whales on the St Lawrence and stuff like that. My son ( he’s 20) met a girl in London (the real one) this summer. She decided on a whim to come visit him in Montreal a few weeks later. Her first time in North America. She spent the whole week in his appartement with zero interest in the city itself. That was extreme, of course, no matter how charming my son is. But still, I told him… well, she is from London, what could you possibly show her in Montreal that would impress her ? Not much of course. Except of course… the vibe, the ambiance of the city, but that is intangible. You have to let yourself drowned in it.
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  #98  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:23 PM
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For busiest transatlantic routes Montreal-Paris is #5 and Toronto-London is #7. I’m assuming AirFrance has Montreal as a NA hub.

Busiest route from Germany is to Chicago. Not sure this means Chicago is top German destination either.
Chicago-O'Hare is one of the busiest airports in the world. I am sure that has something to do with it.

Air France flies to at least a dozen US cities direct year-round. They don't need Montreal as a hub.

No one who doesn't really want to is flying through Montreal to get to NYC or Wheeling WV from Paris.
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  #99  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:24 PM
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Maybe, but from my experience with Euro friends and their relatives, they are not much interested by our urban offerings. They want to see whales on the St Lawrence and stuff like that. My son ( he’s 20) met a girl in London (the real one) this summer. She decided on a whim to come visit him in Montreal a few weeks later. Her first time in North America. She spent the whole week in his appartement with zero interest in the city itself. That was extreme, of course, no matter how charming my son is. But still, I told him… well, she is from London, what could you possibly show her in Montreal that would impress her ? Not much of course. Except of course… the vibe, the ambiance of the city, but that is intangible.
Definitely agree with the basics of this.

Would she have been wowed by Toronto, comparatively speaking? Maybe because it is more modern and has taller buildings? Perhaps...
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  #100  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:29 PM
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Definitely agree with the basics of this.

Would she have been wowed by Toronto, comparatively speaking? Maybe because it is more modern and has taller buildings? Perhaps...
I don’t think she care about tall buildings. They have plenty of those in London and they are more impressive in their design by a long shot.
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