When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Zeej

In the minds of most English Canadians (ROC to be precise)

Oh please...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

But you're missing context. Vancouver is Canada's best city, apparently, so of course it will exceed Montreal (or any other place Canada) in all aspects. This idea appears regularly in the weather thread... get with the program!

I don't wish this on anyone and I like Vancouver, but if any city in Canada has a "killing the goose that laid the golden egg" risk hanging over its head, that's it.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I often like to say: for a far greater share of its resident population.

There are certainly angryphone holdouts who pine for yesteryear but most of us (the silent majority who don't comment on Gazette articles or call into CJAD) believe in what Montreal is - a vibrant French speaking city with a unique cultural offering.

Personally, this 1972 photo of McGill College doesn't scream sophisticated metropolis to me...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadagood/3067602361

[Rico Rommheim]

I've got a request for the mods: Please rename this thread "The Great Canadian Bi-monthly thread of When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal... Feat. the same old arguments made by the same old forumers"

-Rico

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Montreal's present zeitgeist of focusing on design, infrastructure and general urban maintenance is the city's best option for the moment, and it is good at it. It can put together a square, a street or even a transit system better than anywhere else in Canada by some margin. It has a talent for infrastructure and self-optimization. But I wonder whether the question of its destiny will at some point come back. It's great to be a North American Copenhagen, but there is a point at which it matters that Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark, and that Denmark has a per capita GDP of USD 68,000 (vs. about 38,000 for Quebec).

Jane Jacobs thought that independence would ultimately be good for Montreal.

That book by Jane Jacobs (not that easy to find but my university library had it) was almost a seminal work for me when I first read it because I had always assumed that Quebec independence, if it ever happened, would come at the sacrifice of Montreal's prosperity. The convincing evidence being its decline from the late 70s up until the start of the 2000s. Plus this was written by a respected anglophone urbanist who lived in Toronto. (Though she was American by birth, so maybe this allowed her to see things in a more detached way.) But anyway it wasn't written by some wide-eyed Québécois separatist dreamer.

Later on in life I thought about Jacobs' book when I visited the very dynamic metropolises (often also the capital but not always) of smaller countries or newly independent countries, and saw what kind of oomph they got from that status.

That being said, "Montrealism" these days isn't really even conscious of the possibilities (whether realistic or not) evoked by Jacobs, and even the people in the city who are for independence don't really see it or portray it as a potential huge plus for Montreal. It's never couched in those terms, and if anything it's about Quebec needing to become independent so that Montreal doesn't become another Toronto (or a big Ottawa or even Un Gros Sudbury!), as opposed to it becoming an equivalent to Toronto... but for Quebec.

Quebec independence is still a very defensive reflex. I mean, I fully understand why that is, but that's not a very compelling dream to pursue.

"Survivre" nest pas un objectif - René-Daniel Dubois

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Architype

It's even apparent that Vancouver may one day surpass Montreal, at least in some ways, some of the immigration stats suggest that this is possible.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t001b-eng.htm

Vancouver has already surpassed Montreal in 3 different places:
Number of towers
Airport passengers
Port size/container movements

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Vancouver has already surpassed Montreal in 3 different places:
Number of towers
Airport passengers
Port size/container movements

Also bigger mountains.

[samne]

I think it had a lot to do with de-industrialization in North America in general that was happening from the 70-90s. Montreal was more of a manufacturing centre while Toronto was more service based. Bill 101 has less effect in a manufacturing based economy, but doesn’t help service based. So making the transition wasnt straightforward. Unlike many of its counterparts parts in NA, Montreal has made the transition and now thriving.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Also bigger mountains.

More fiscally efficient snow removal budget per capita.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Also bigger mountains.

True but they were never smaller at first

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by samne

I think it had a lot to do with de-industrialization in North America in general that was happening from the 70-90s. Montreal was more of a manufacturing centre while Toronto was more service based. Bill 101 has less effect in a manufacturing based economy, but doesn’t help service based. So making the transition wasnt straightforward. Unlike many of its counterparts parts in NA, Montreal has made the transition and now thriving.

This is a very interesting point that is almost never mentioned.

Montreal has bounced back in large part because it's in Quebec, and not in spite of it.

It's the be-all-end-all metropolis for Quebec and even for French-speaking Canada.

In that sense it has a largish, captive hinterland that doesn't have anywhere else to go in terms of a metropolis.

Guy Laliberté, not a Montrealer, even if he is a citizen of a country whose largest city is Toronto, would never have put the Cirque du Soleil HQ in Toronto.

I can't think of any Quebec-based or controlled corporations that have their HQ in Toronto.

Québécois and francophones who create companies don't do so in Toronto, and don't move the HQ to Toronto either when they become larger. (Though they may open a branch in Toronto.)

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't wish this on anyone and I like Vancouver, but if any city in Canada has a "killing the goose that laid the golden egg" risk hanging over its head, that's it.

If there's one thing I've learned about Canadian cities (and provinces) it's that some cities are down, but they're never out. And some cities seem to be firing on all cylinders, but the good times eventually come to an end.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If there's one thing I've learned about Canadian cities (and provinces) it's that some cities are down, but they're never out. And some cities seem to be firing on all cylinders, but the good times eventually come to an end.

Yeah, you're probably right. We have so few major ones that they aren't ever truly "disposable" like they are in the US.

[MolsonExport]

When did it become apparent that Dallas would surpass New York City...

all jokes aside, Montreal is finally ascendant after years of relatively slow growth. Woot Woot times have returned.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

there have probably been twenty threads on this subject over the years. At least. It is one of those old SSP chestnuts.

The OP answered his question in the first post. There is no real mystery here that hasn't been solved.

It would be interesting to have longtime SSPers answer the question as sincerely as possible right now, THEN go and dig up their previous takes, to see how consistent they've been over the years!

Right now, without cheating, I'd peg the start of the "Montreal willingly embarks on a path that means ceding the Alpha spot to Toronto" period at the beginning of the Quiet Revolution.

I wonder if me-from-five-years-ago said the exact same thing, or not

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

also bigger mountains.

lol

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

I've got a request for the mods: Please rename this thread "The Great Canadian Bi-monthly thread of When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal... Feat. the same old arguments made by the same old forumers"

-Rico

And there’s always the inevitable “joke thread” that will follow up. It’s so overdone it’s not funny at this point. It was just done 500 times before.

[kool maudit]

It's just something that's going to come up periodically. It's an aspect of Canada's urban history. I don't see why it's so exasperating.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It's just something that's going to come up periodically. It's an aspect of Canada's urban history. I don't see why it's so exasperating.

Every thread on here is easily avoided if one is not interested.

[le calmar]

For the record, I don’t really mind this thread, although it doesn’t exactly feel fresh. It’s more the copycat threads that I find slightly annoying. Unless they were not meant to be a joke (if that’s the case my apologies). But anyway, not a big deal I guess.