Manitoba Provincial Election

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

So DJ, it would help with a little context, please let us know your means of employment or how you contribute to the local economy. Do you work for yourself as a self serving capitalist? Are you a supposed boot licker and work for a labour exploiting corp? Are you a respectable union guy who faithful pays his dues, or do you work in an altruistic utopian non-profit? Or are you looking for your next opportunity? Us capitalists would like to know? The contempt for those that offer an opposing view is interesting to stay the least; but at least we’ll get context.

This is one of the most common logical fallacies out there. I suggest you read up on it. Literally nothing I individually do matters because I was born in this capitalist world and must do what I can to survive in it, as long as I am not going out of my way to step on anyone beneath me. Not that it matters, but I do have a good paying job as a software developer at a federal Crown. I happily pay my taxes and contribute to various charities. The point of socialism is that it is a collective movement so I do not profess to be a saviour like so many capitalists and wannabe capitalists claim to be.

The contempt I have is for people who do step on others for their own gain. Those people can rot in hell and I'm not afraid to say it .

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

The market place, success or failure decides everything.

Sorry pal, but to admit that so shamelessly is extremely sociopathic. It is quite astonishing and sad how brainwashed people are to accept this cruel and inhumane system where the profit motive decides the fate of everything. It has turned human beings into commodities. We are here on this earth to do nothing but serve as cogs in a machine. To look around at our capitalist world and think "ya, everything is going fine" is so detached from reality and any sense of humanity it doesn't even seem like real life but here we are. Yet it doesn’t actually have to be this way. There is nothing natural about capitalism except for its exploitation of our worst characteristics.

Also you completely missed the point of the person responding to you.

[P&M40BELOW]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

This is one of the most common logical fallacies out there. I suggest you read up on it. Literally nothing I individually do matters because I was born in this capitalist world and must do what I can to survive in it, as long as I am not going out of my way to step on anyone beneath me. Not that it matters, but I do have a good paying job as a software developer at a federal Crown. I happily pay my taxes and contribute to various charities. The point of socialism is that it is a collective movement so I do not profess to be a saviour like so many capitalists and wannabe capitalists claim to be.

The contempt I have is for people who do step on others for their own gain. Those people can rot in hell and I'm not afraid to say it .

Perfectly rational. The most purposeful, successful and admired people are those that bring others up with them. Those people can be found in both the private and public sector; this we should agree. However you continuously seem to have contempt for a “ productive capitalist society” all while being completely oblivious that you readily enjoy the fruits of that system. Have a good night.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Sorry pal, but to admit that so shamelessly is extremely sociopathic. It is quite astonishing and sad how brainwashed people are to accept this cruel and inhumane system where the profit motive decides the fate of everything. It has turned human beings into commodities. We are here on this earth to do nothing but serve as cogs in a machine. To look around at our capitalist world and think "ya, everything is going fine" is so detached from reality and any sense of humanity it doesn't even seem like real life but here we are. Yet it doesn’t actually have to be this way. There is nothing natural about capitalism except for its exploitation of our worst characteristics.

Also you completely missed the point of the person responding to you.

I vaguely remember a documentary that came out a number of years ago where the documentarian "diagnosed" the behaviour of a number of corporations as if they were individuals, and they came out as classic sociopaths. Wish I could remember what it was called ???

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

Perfectly rational. The most purposeful, successful and admired people are those that bring others up with them. Those people can be found in both the private and public sector; this we should agree. However you continuously seem to have contempt for a “ productive capitalist society” all while being completely oblivious that you readily enjoy the fruits of that system. Have a good night.

I have never said capitalism doesn’t bring anyone up. Capitalism, however, is a zero-sum game. There are winners and there are many losers. How can anyone look at increasing inequality, which is the result of that game, as something that is sustainable or even desirable? Capitalism is coming to an end, despite anything you or I do. I will just make sure that I have fought for the most just and ethical successor to it, and so that everyone can enjoy and democratically decide how to share the fruits of their labour. That’s the legacy I plan to leave.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I vaguely remember a documentary that came out a number of years ago where the documentarian "diagnosed" the behaviour of a number of corporations as if they were individuals, and they came out as classic sociopaths. Wish I could remember what it was called ???

Interesting! Let us know if you remember it. This reminds me of the ESG stuff going around about ethical corporations. Some think it is the answer to everything we have been talking about here. Well, it isn’t and in fact is only delaying necessary, systematic change. Here’s a recent video about it:

• Video Link

[P&M40BELOW]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

I have never said capitalism doesn’t bring anyone up. Capitalism, however, is a zero-sum game. There are winners and there are many losers. How can anyone look at increasing inequality, which is the result of that game, as something that is sustainable or even desirable? Capitalism is coming to an end, despite anything you or I do. I will just make sure that I have fought for the most just and ethical successor to it, and so that everyone can enjoy and democratically decide how to share the fruits of their labour. That’s the legacy I plan to leave.

People like yourself continuously harp about inequality when the world and the universe is not equal. All you want is other peoples stuff; by any means necessary. I’ve asked you this before. You will no doubt claim that I’m missing your point again. Don’t worry I get your obsessions.

Are you better off than your grand parents?

The vast majority of citizens will say yes. Rational people don’t obsess that someone has achieved more than others, or covet their stuff. You are provided every opportunity to do as much or as little as you choose with your one opportunity on this planet. Capitalism had risen more people out of poverty than any other system. The Marxist fantasy kills innovation & will drive the world back into poverty, because its a perceived total solution. It demands thuggish and brutal adherence, where everything is top down. How often do you see people fleeing a capitalist society for a socialist one? Exactly, because it doesn’t happen. People who have experienced both know better.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

People like yourself continuously harp about inequality when the world and the universe is not equal. All you want is other peoples stuff; by any means necessary. I’ve asked you this before. You will no doubt claim that I’m missing your point again. Don’t worry I get obsessions.

Capital is the one taking what is not theirs. I want to see workers keep what is theirs and decide how to distribute it.

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

Are you better off than your grand parents?

The vast majority of citizens will say yes.

I escaped poverty not because of capitalism but in spite of it. But this isn't about me. The fact is, Millennials and later generations are worse off economically than previous generations. If you were paying attention to anything other than your conservative bubble, you would see how obvious that is. Less of them own houses at the same age as previous generations and the cost of everything has skyrocketed vs incomes, especially for education and housing. You can go ahead and believe that it is laziness because it lets you off the hook but considering productivity/GDP has been steadily rising but is failing to "trickle down", that couldn't be more wrong. Newer generations are getting an education and working hard like they were told but it is not paying off for most.

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

Rational people don’t obsess that someone has achieved more than others, or covet their stuff. You are provided every opportunity to do as much or as little as you choose with your one opportunity on this planet. Capitalism had risen more people out of poverty than any other system. The Marxist fantasy kills innovation & will drive the world back into poverty, because its a perceived total solution. It demands thuggish and brutal adherence, where everything is top down. How often do you see people fleeing a capitalist society for a socialist one? Exactly, because it doesn’t happen. People who have experienced both know better.

Capitalism had its moment. But it wasn't even pure capitalism that saw the rise of the middle class. The labour movement and threats from communism had more to do with it. As economic inequality skyrockets, by some measures worse than prior to the Great Depression, there will be yet another reckoning. But you can only slap lipstick on a pig so many times. The pig is dying and rational people who actually care about people other than themselves understand it. They also understand it is capitalism that is authoritarian. Workers have little to no say in the workplace. Decisions are made from the top-down. Have you even ever had a job?

The notion that innovation never came out of communism is preposterous and shows just how uneducated we are under capitalism. Which nation first sent a person to space? The USSR has a long list of technical and other innovations. Here in the West, guess how the internet was invented? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't private industry that invented it. Just because your only motivation in life is money, doesn't mean that is the case for everyone else. Humans have a natural desire to be part of a community and make meaningful contributions to it. Capitalism makes this very hard to do for most people and its my belief that this is the source of rising cases of mental illness, drug addiction, and suicide.

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

How often do you see people fleeing a capitalist society for a socialist one? Exactly, because it doesn’t happen. People who have experienced both know better.

What you see is people fleeing countries being brutally exploited by right wing dictators and capitalist countries like our own and America that often put them in place there. We in the West benefit from imperialism, so of course people want to go from a worse to relatively better situation here. But people shouldn't have to to flee their own countries nor should we be exploiting them for our own gain. I can't change that myself. But collectively, we can do what's right for our people and our fellow humans around the world.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Thanks PCs your ridiculous tax cuts to the rich home owners continue to bear fruit :

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...cuts-1.6791661

Hanover School Division plans to cut teachers, programs to make up for revenue shortfall

Southeastern Manitoba division the latest to say provincial funding hikes are not enough

Southeastern Manitoba's Hanover School Division is the latest in the province to declare it doesn't have enough revenue to meet expenses in the coming year.

The school division announced Thursday it plans to cut teaching positions, eliminate services and dip into its surplus this coming fiscal year as part of a plan to make up for a $2.7-million deficit.

The funding shortfall comes in spite of an operational funding increase from the province, the division said in a statement.

While the division received a provincial funding increase of $1.1 million as well as an $850,000 grant to offset a provincial education property tax cut, expenses rose $4.7 million, creating the $2.7-million deficit.

"The cost increase is primarily due to inflationary measures and expected wage settlements," the division said in its statement.

Since school divisions are no longer permitted by the province to raise education taxes without facing a funding clawback, Hanover plans to balance its budget through a series of cuts, transfers and deferrals.

In a statement on Thursday, Hanover said it intends to shed 10.5 teaching positions in order to save $1.25 million, save $315,000 by cutting back on bus replacements, trim $290,000 from its school maintenance budget, reduce spending on information technology by $100,000 and eliminate $235,000 worth of programs.

The division also plans to transfer $500,000 from its surplus to cover the funding shortfall and put off adding 15 teaching positions, which were intended to handle increasing enrolment in the fast-growing division.

Hanover operates 19 schools in Steinbach, Niverville, Blumenort, New Bothwell, Crystal Springs, Grunthal, Kleefeld, Landmark and Mitchell.

The division joins Winnipeg's Louis Riel School Division and Seven Oaks School Division in complaining provincial funding increases are not keeping pace with actual costs.

Education Minister Wayne Ewasko was asked for comment, but a response wasn't immediately received.

Funny none of this stopped them from giving school employees five percent raises last year. How many new teachers could that have hired? Plus it’s one of the fastest growing communities in the province, so the school tax base is constantly growing. They also got a funding increase, paid out more wage increases. But still act like the government is cutting all this money. It’s amazing the lengths the MTS will go to lie and deceive the public.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Funny none of this stopped them from giving school employees five percent raises last year. How many new teachers could that have hired? Plus it’s one of the fastest growing communities in the province, so the school tax base is constantly growing. They also got a funding increase, paid out more wage increases. But still act like the government is cutting all this money. It’s amazing the lengths the MTS will go to lie and deceive the public.

What does MTS have to do with this? It's a school division CFO talking.

What do you think acceptable salary increases are for people when inflation has been 8% going on 3 years?

The wage adjustment for teachers with COLA bargained for 21-22 was only 3.3 percent.

How many years of losing salary in real dollars do you expect people to accept?

The current government keeps saying they've increased funding but after years of cuts increasing funding by less than half the rate of current inflation continues the cycle of cuts. This is made even worse by tax rebates they are producing out of thin air and backstopping with debt. Over $2 billion in the current and past three budget years of rebates not funded by revenue increases...straight up borrowed. No plan to generate the revenue to fund the tax cuts, no ability to support economic development, only a plan to kick up money and burn it all down.

Why is the government so against regional school boards making taxation and funding decisions? The citizens of the region elect the school board to make those decisions. The government down to the DM's installed by this government have no clue what they are doing. In past years they've adjusted funding such that rural school divisions were not given allowance for transportation....divisions that run over half a million KM a school year just to get students to school on a yearly basis.

Based on the ignorance of this government, expect provincial bargaining to be a disaster for the treasury as they try to equalize benefits in 36 divisions for all professional staff. All to drag "power" away from school boards.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

What does MTS have to do with this? It's a school division CFO talking.

What do you think acceptable salary increases are for people when inflation has been 8% going on 3 years?

The wage adjustment for teachers with COLA bargained for 21-22 was only 3.3 percent.

How many years of losing salary in real dollars do you expect people to accept?

The current government keeps saying they've increased funding but after years of cuts increasing funding by less than half the rate of current inflation continues the cycle of cuts. This is made even worse by tax rebates they are producing out of thin air and backstopping with debt. Over $2 billion in the current and past three budget years of rebates not funded by revenue increases...straight up borrowed. No plan to generate the revenue to fund the tax cuts, no ability to support economic development, only a plan to kick up money and burn it all down.

Why is the government so against regional school boards making taxation and funding decisions? The citizens of the region elect the school board to make those decisions. The government down to the DM's installed by this government have no clue what they are doing. In past years they've adjusted funding such that rural school divisions were not given allowance for transportation....divisions that run over half a million KM a school year just to get students to school on a yearly basis.

Based on the ignorance of this government, expect provincial bargaining to be a disaster for the treasury as they try to equalize benefits in 36 divisions for all professional staff. All to drag "power" away from school boards.

Hard to take your points seriously when you start off factually incorrect to exaggerate a point. Inflation has not been 8% going on 3 years. It was steady hovering +/- 2% for years up until the pandemic in early 2020. At that point there was actually a dip into deflation and then inflation at almost 0 for about a year until it started to shoot up in Spring of 2021. It actually only broke past 8% late Spring 2022 (one year ago) and since then has obviously been a massive issue.

I have no problem with the provincial government rebating/removing education taxation from property tax bills as long as funding to education does not decrease. Whether that money is borrowed or comes from raising other taxes or getting increased grants from the federal level isn't the issue here as long as schools are still being funded. We're the same taxpayer so why should the school division level have the inalienable right to tax citizens at whatever level they feel is justified? To me, taxation has always been and should always be a government responsibility and it is the school division's responsibility to justify to the provincial government the funding levels they need in order to provide a proper education system. Direct taxation on property tax bills has always seemed to me as an end around for the school divisions to get more money without the same scrutiny as municipal property taxes or other taxes receive.

To me, school divisions absolutely have a vital role in making day to day decisions at a local level to make sure our schools are run well, but the role of direct taxation should have nothing to do with them and they should go to the provincial government for funding just like every other government department... and they should absolutely be generously funded, no argument there.

[djforsberg]

Just an FYI, following is the inflation that has happened over different periods, according to the Bank of Canada:
2019-2023: 14.87%
2020-2023: 12.45%
2021-2023: 11.23%
2022-2023: 5.25%

And why should school boards get to set their own rates? I can't speak for Manitoba, but here in Sask, education got a 2.5% increase this year from our far-right government that wants to destroy our education system. That should tell you everything.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Interesting! Let us know if you remember it. This reminds me of the ESG stuff going around about ethical corporations. Some think it is the answer to everything we have been talking about here. Well, it isn’t and in fact is only delaying necessary, systematic change.

I've been pondering this today. Many human-devised organizations, whether they be unions, political parties or what-have-you claim an ethical/moral code as an essential part of who/what they want to represent. Of course these codes are often only occasionally adhered to, and usually only when convenient at the moment, but they still claim some sort of ethical base for their actions.

"Business" seems totally different. It appears to want to be totally amoral, and looks quite proud of that fact. From the principle of "caveat emptor" dating back to the 1600's (and probably earlier) we see business claiming the position that the responsibility to not be cheated in a business transaction lies with the consumer, and not with the business itself.

One often hears/reads of businesses claiming their actions are "just business" and "not personal", especially when their actions cause hardships for their employees or the community.

When businesses engage in business decisions that are catastrophic for a community, like closing factories/ mass layoffs, etc. they often point to "market forces" which were responsible. It can sound like a tornado or a hurricane closed a factory, not the decisions made by people in boardrooms.

I've wondered if distancing oneself from the burden of morality is one of the things that attracts some people to the world of business in the first place?

Businesses are collections of humans (as far as I know...there might be some alien reptilians in there. At least that's what the "History" channel tells me). Shouldn't we expect adherence to even a basic moral code in their actions? I know it wouldn't eliminate layoffs, closures, etc., but decisions would be made to at least mitigate harm to other human beings.

Just pondering.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by pacman

Hard to take your points seriously when you start off factually incorrect to exaggerate a point. Inflation has not been 8% going on 3 years. It was steady hovering +/- 2% for years up until the pandemic in early 2020. At that point there was actually a dip into deflation and then inflation at almost 0 for about a year until it started to shoot up in Spring of 2021. It actually only broke past 8% late Spring 2022 (one year ago) and since then has obviously been a massive issue.

I have no problem with the provincial government rebating/removing education taxation from property tax bills as long as funding to education does not decrease. Whether that money is borrowed or comes from raising other taxes or getting increased grants from the federal level isn't the issue here as long as schools are still being funded. We're the same taxpayer so why should the school division level have the inalienable right to tax citizens at whatever level they feel is justified? To me, taxation has always been and should always be a government responsibility and it is the school division's responsibility to justify to the provincial government the funding levels they need in order to provide a proper education system. Direct taxation on property tax bills has always seemed to me as an end around for the school divisions to get more money without the same scrutiny as municipal property taxes or other taxes receive.

To me, school divisions absolutely have a vital role in making day to day decisions at a local level to make sure our schools are run well, but the role of direct taxation should have nothing to do with them and they should go to the provincial government for funding just like every other government department... and they should absolutely be generously funded, no argument there.

23-24 will be the third school budget year hugely impacted by inflation = "going on three years" dealing with inflation in school funding. Also the third budget year for the government under this level of inflation, well over 5%.

Why does any level of government have an ability to tax anyone? School boards have public consultations for budget and are elected just like city council, MLA's etc. Kind of a silly argument, but I get the move to more central control. It just needs to be done in a way that isn't political rhetoric. This government has thrown a grenade into tax revenue with the rebate and has no plan the develop the provincial economy to even bring that money back without inflation and significant increases in Federal transfers. Even with those increases we are now at over $2 billion borrowed in the past three budget years for the property tax rebate and other rebates of our own tax revenue from Pallister/Stefanson.

Governments rebating tax revenue and turning around to borrow to fund core services are not benefitting the economy at all. They are eroding their own ability to fund core services year by year.

The government could have made the move to remove local funding and properly fund education. Instead they are pulling a political stunt to send out cheques along with pamphlets with their messaging on it.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Just an FYI, following is the inflation that has happened over different periods, according to the Bank of Canada:
2019-2023: 14.87%
2020-2023: 12.45%
2021-2023: 11.23%
2022-2023: 5.25%

And why should school boards get to set their own rates? I can't speak for Manitoba, but here in Sask, education got a 2.5% increase this year from our far-right government that wants to destroy our education system. That should tell you everything.

Not saying these figures are intentionally misleading, but just for clarity the numbers you posted are the accumulated totals of inflation for those total periods as opposed to an annual rate of inflation year over year which is what I had brought up in my post and what everyone always talks about when discussing inflation.

Not a fan of your calculator but based on your calculator:
2019-2020: 2.16%
2020-2021: 1.09%
2021-2022: 5.69%
2022-2023: 5.25%

Not sure what your point was about school board taxation so it obviously doesn't tell me everything. A 2.5% increase for I assume 2023 is higher than a typical inflation rate over the last few decades so that is hardly proving intent to destroy anything. Also, this is the Manitoba Provincial Election thread where we were discussing the Manitoba government's handling of school taxes in the context of the upcoming election, I really don't care about Saskatchewan's school taxes or their politics and bringing it up does nothing but steer this thread towards derailment.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

Why is the government so against regional school boards making taxation and funding decisions? The citizens of the region elect the school board to make those decisions. The government down to the DM's installed by this government have no clue what they are doing. In past years they've adjusted funding such that rural school divisions were not given allowance for transportation....divisions that run over half a million KM a school year just to get students to school on a yearly basis.

Based on the ignorance of this government, expect provincial bargaining to be a disaster for the treasury as they try to equalize benefits in 36 divisions for all professional staff. All to drag "power" away from school boards.

this started under the ndp in the 00's and it screwed up communities like lynn lake that had a balance because of a trust the school was managing left to it by sherritt, that fronteer turned around and seized and fired all the adminstrsation that faught to keep it in the community. sending the school over a cliff int the mess its in now

[pacman]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

23-24 will be the third school budget year hugely impacted by inflation = "going on three years" dealing with inflation in school funding. Also the third budget year for the government under this level of inflation, well over 5%.

Why does any level of government have an ability to tax anyone? School boards have public consultations for budget and are elected just like city council, MLA's etc. Kind of a silly argument, but I get the move to more central control. It just needs to be done in a way that isn't political rhetoric. This government has thrown a grenade into tax revenue with the rebate and has no plan the develop the provincial economy to even bring that money back without inflation and significant increases in Federal transfers. Even with those increases we are now at over $2 billion borrowed in the past three budget years for the property tax rebate and other rebates of our own tax revenue from Pallister/Stefanson.

Governments rebating tax revenue and turning around to borrow to fund core services are not benefitting the economy at all. They are eroding their own ability to fund core services year by year.

The government could have made the move to remove local funding and properly fund education. Instead they are pulling a political stunt to send out cheques along with pamphlets with their messaging on it.

I hate semantics in general but in this case I think it's important because I showed you where your figures are wrong and instead of admitting it you try to change the context of your comments to suit. I don't think its difficult to say inflation has not been "8%
going on 3 years". And you don't get to look into the future and determine what this year's inflation rate will be when it hasn't happened yet. It may very well happen but it isn't fact yet. You also don't get to change your 8% goalpost when you were talking about salary increases (which got me started) and now say "hugely impacted by inflation" or "well over 5%" and then proceed to include a year that hasn't happened yet or include the first year where inflation severely outpaced the expected rate in that budget year. We have had exactly 1 year of 8% inflation so no that does not = going on 3 years.

I agree with you that education funding and education in general should not be politicized and I truly dislike when any party tries to buy votes on its back. I also feel that even though school boards are elected and have public consultations, the level of scrutiny is not the same. I consider myself somewhat aware of politics and definitely higher than average knowledge when I go in to cast my vote and I have little to no idea when I vote for school trustee and I think that's pretty much the case for most people so I can't in good conscience blindly accept that school boards are able to handle their massive budgets properly and give them a free pass to tax at whatever levels they see fit. I prefer more centralized administration of education but that is just a personal preference.

To me, the 2 billion dollar hole in funding that you bring up cannot be looked at in isolation as it is one part of the overall budget which has had other revenues backfill that hole. To what degree has it been backfilled I don't know but I'm sure its not the 1:1 borrowing increase you are suggesting which is my point. I absolutely feel that shifting school taxation away from property tax bills and funding it through general revenues is closer to my personal ideals, but in the end its the same taxpayer so it's not a hill I'm going to die on, as long as funding levels are not affected and if anything should be increased.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by pacman

when you were talking about salary increases .

To be clear on this part, that was based on CPI as agreed to in bargaining and will likely be the baseline moving forward as most locals had that as the final year in their settlement, for 21-22. So provincial bargaining table is looking at 6.8% to settle 22-23, likely an increase of 5%ish for 23-24 and who knows what beyond that as a baseline to settle outstanding contracts.

Will be interesting to see the entire province go to arbitration at once. The Pallister government directed divisions to settle in 19-20 with the CPI increase for 21-22 and set themselves a tough precedent.

Finance works in fiscal/budget years so that's what I'm talking about. The compounding affects of inflation coming out of Covid are well over 8% 21-22, 22-23, 23-24.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by pacman

Not saying these figures are intentionally misleading, but just for clarity the numbers you posted are the accumulated totals of inflation for those total periods as opposed to an annual rate of inflation year over year which is what I had brought up in my post and what everyone always talks about when discussing inflation.

Not a fan of your calculator but based on your calculator:
2019-2020: 2.16%
2020-2021: 1.09%
2021-2022: 5.69%
2022-2023: 5.25%

Not sure what your point was about school board taxation so it obviously doesn't tell me everything. A 2.5% increase for I assume 2023 is higher than a typical inflation rate over the last few decades so that is hardly proving intent to destroy anything. Also, this is the Manitoba Provincial Election thread where we were discussing the Manitoba government's handling of school taxes in the context of the upcoming election, I really don't care about Saskatchewan's school taxes or their politics and bringing it up does nothing but steer this thread towards derailment.

It’s not my calculator. It’s the Bank of Canada’s. And you should care about what other provinces do because Manitoba isn’t special nor does it exist in a vacuum. It’s arrogant to think that outside perspective is not relevant. So calm down.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I've been pondering this today. Many human-devised organizations, whether they be unions, political parties or what-have-you claim an ethical/moral code as an essential part of who/what they want to represent. Of course these codes are often only occasionally adhered to, and usually only when convenient at the moment, but they still claim some sort of ethical base for their actions.

"Business" seems totally different. It appears to want to be totally amoral, and looks quite proud of that fact. From the principle of "caveat emptor" dating back to the 1600's (and probably earlier) we see business claiming the position that the responsibility to not be cheated in a business transaction lies with the consumer, and not with the business itself.

One often hears/reads of businesses claiming their actions are "just business" and "not personal", especially when their actions cause hardships for their employees or the community.

When businesses engage in business decisions that are catastrophic for a community, like closing factories/ mass layoffs, etc. they often point to "market forces" which were responsible. It can sound like a tornado or a hurricane closed a factory, not the decisions made by people in boardrooms.

I've wondered if distancing oneself from the burden of morality is one of the things that attracts some people to the world of business in the first place?

Businesses are collections of humans (as far as I know...there might be some alien reptilians in there. At least that's what the "History" channel tells me). Shouldn't we expect adherence to even a basic moral code in their actions? I know it wouldn't eliminate layoffs, closures, etc., but decisions would be made to at least mitigate harm to other human beings.

Just pondering.

The only goal of publicly traded corporations, specifically, in the absence of any government regulation that forces them otherwise, is to return the highest profits possible to shareholders. That is it. Due to competitive pressures, that will always be more important than doing what's morally right, especially in a world of giant conglomerates with little consumer choice. It also doesn't help that these shareholders typically don't have ties to the communities these businesses operate in and tend to not have to suffer the consequences of their company's actions. And yes, this reality will result in the most sociopathic people rising to the top.