Declining Metro Areas

[Docere]

Chicago really stands out as a Mexican American center outside the Southwest.

Detroit seems to have had a fair-sized Mexican population early on. According to Wikipedia, there were about 30,000 Mexican Americans in the early 1950s. But kind of flatlined, it never became a major center for post-1965 Mexican immigration (there's around 130,000 Mexican Americans in metro Detroit).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Docere

Chicago really stands out as a Mexican American center outside the Southwest.

Detroit seems to have had a fair-sized Mexican population early on. According to Wikipedia, there were about 30,000 Mexican Americans in the early 1950s. But kind of flatlined, it never became a major center for post-1965 Mexican immigration (there's around 130,000 Mexican Americans in metro Detroit).

St. Louis definitely had an early Mexican influx too being on 66 and bar tamales were a thing in the early 20th century but the community definitely centered in Chicago (and Kansas City and Detroit as secondary areas).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

but the community definitely centered in Chicago (and Kansas City and Detroit as secondary areas).

Milwaukee is a secondary node too. by percentage, It's #2 in the region, just ahead of KC.

Minneapolis and Detroit have more in raw numbers, but that's mainly a function of their much larger sizes, as their percentages are pretty middling, regionally speaking.

The numbers below are for all Latinos, not just Mexicans, but in most cases, the bulk of the Latino population is Mexican in origin anyway, so....


here are the 1M+ midwest/rustbelt MSAs ranked by percentage of latinos.


MSA latino population (census 2020):

chicago: 2,239,376 (23.3%)
milwaukee: 182,777 (11.6%)
kansas city: 229,233 (10.5%)
grand rapids: 110,671 (10.2%)
indianapolis: 177,787 (8.4%)
rochetser: 88,854 (8.1%)
minneapolis: 242,621 (6.8%)
cleveland: 133,862 (6.4%)
buffalo: 67,476 (5.8%)
columbus: 110,967 (5.2%)
detroit: 219,953 (5.0%)
cincinnati: 95,073 (4.2%)
st. louis: 106,269 (3.8%)
pittsburgh: 52,920 (2.2%)



nationally, latinos now make up 18.5% of the US population as of 2020. chicago is the only major MSA in the midwest/rusbelt that is more or less aligned with the national share.

what's more, chicagoland has more total latinos than those 13 other MSAs combined!

chicagoland: 2,239,376 (23.3%)
the others: 1,818,463 (6.3%)

[TWAK]

I really thought one of my alma maters would be decling, especially in the ISIS years...

Mosul, Iraq:
2022 1,737,000 3.21%
2021 1,683,000 3.25%
2020 1,630,000 3.30%
2019 1,578,000 3.34%
2018 1,527,000 3.32%
2017 1,478,000 3.36%
2016 1,430,000 3.32%
2015 1,384,000 3.28%
2014 1,340,000 3.40%
2013 1,296,000 3.27%
2012 1,255,000 3.38%
2011 1,214,000 3.32%
2010 1,175,000 3.34%
2009 1,137,000 -0.35%
2008 1,141,000 -0.35%
2007 1,145,000 -0.35%
2006 1,149,000 -0.26%
2005 1,152,000 -0.35%
2004 1,156,000 -0.34%
2003 1,160,000 3.20%

I'm really not sure how they managed to increase population numbers .
https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/2...sul/population

[Yuri]

Berlin



Area: 3,754 km²

Population
1923: 4,260,434
1939: 4,943,624 --- 16.0%
1950: 3,966,236 -- -19.8%
1960: 3,911,469 --- -1.4%
1971: 3,861,639 --- -1.3%
1981: 3,723,500 --- -3.6%
1990: 4,096,808 --- 10.0%
2001: 4,209,385 ---- 2.7%
2011: 4,189,798 --- -0.5%
2021: 4,695,640 --- 12.1%

Population peak: 1939

Decline from the peak: -5.0%

Biggest decline: -24.7% (1939-1981)

It needs no introduction. By the turn of 20th century, Berlin was world's 4 largest metropolis, emerging as the vibrant centre of the recently unified and powerful 2nd Reich.

Fast forward three decades and it was completely obliterated by British and American air bombing and Soviet artillery and less than two decades later, it was literally cut in half by the physical wall and the Iron Curtain. Very few major cities in history faced such hardships. Unsurprisingly it's featuring this list.

The numbers above tell Berlin's history: it grew insanely after the German unification coupled with German urbanisation/industrialisation process. WWI was a shock, but Berlin recovered and delivered its famous 1920's. Nazism came, WWII, and it lost 20% of its inhabitants within a decade. Divided, one side an island, the other the capital of a dysfunctional and rather small country, the city has obviously kept struggling.

There was this recovery in the 1980's, in both East and West Berlin. I can't tell the reasons. Maybe the 1980's economic troubles on the Soviet Bloc had pushed people from East Germany provinces to the East capital and also increased the number of refugees into the West island. The 1990's and the most of 2000's was not a very good economic (and demographically) time for Germany, specially for its eastern states, and Berlin got stuck. It was dismissed as "poor", "cheap", "complacent" and "ugly" by the western states.

Then things changed: 2008 crisis marked the German economic renaissance, massive immigration waves and Berlin all the sudden became the "world's coolest city", the place where everybody wanted/wants to be. Berlin re-editing its 1920's. And of course, a population boom followed, with double-digit growth rates. Kept this pace, Berlin might reach the 5 million mark by 2030 and an all-time high.

[Docere]

It's interesting that Berlin and Vienna are growing at similar rates. Vienna is dismissed as old and stodgy compared to creative and dynamic Berlin. But perception can be different from reality.

[Crawford]

Berlin and Vienna are the two "Western European" cities closest to the Eastern frontier. Once the Eastern Bloc fell, those cities were beneficiaries. It's the same phenomenon of Texas, Arizona and California with unusual levels of Mexican immigration.

Vienna, culturally, is very "old and stodgy" compared to Berlin, even if both have huge Slavic populations and rapid economic growth.

[muppet]

Austria has very conservative elements in the rural areas and in politics (stand up and salute when a woman enters a room), but as with all cultures it's a mishmash. For example Austrians are some of the most sexually liberated and libertine cultures going.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Docere

It's interesting that Berlin and Vienna are growing at similar rates. Vienna is dismissed as old and stodgy compared to creative and dynamic Berlin. But perception can be different from reality.

Yes, the city is seen as very traditional. However I'd say Vienna already got the image of a fast growing, cosmopolitan place.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Berlin and Vienna are the two "Western European" cities closest to the Eastern frontier. Once the Eastern Bloc fell, those cities were beneficiaries. It's the same phenomenon of Texas, Arizona and California with unusual levels of Mexican immigration.

Vienna, culturally, is very "old and stodgy" compared to Berlin, even if both have huge Slavic populations and rapid economic growth.

Berlin took longer to grow though. The worldwide edgy image started at some point on the mid-2000's, but real growth only came in the 2010's, or post 2008 crisis to be more accurate. Western Germany is a powerhouse, so competition for immigrants is fierce.

Originally Posted by muppet

Austria has very conservative elements in the rural areas and in politics (stand up and salute when a woman enters a room), but as with all cultures it's a mishmash. For example Austrians are some of the most sexually liberated and libertine cultures going.

Do you know if they have a big LGBT scene there or it's sleepý?

[iheartthed]

Vienna felt to me like almost the complete opposite of Berlin. I liked it as a city, but it didn't seem nearly as diverse as Berlin, and felt like an overall more conservative culture than what you encounter in Berlin. I also noticed public mentions of Hitler in Vienna, while I don't think I've ever seen Hitler's name written/mentioned anywhere in Berlin.

[Crawford]

Vienna, on the surface, seems fantastic, as its second only to Paris in terms of a monumental European city, and is imbued with grandeur. Austrians (outside of maybe Tyrol) are kind of a difficult bunch, however, and there are cultural elements that make Vienna less than the sum of its parts (IMO). Vienna feels kind of parochial/provincial, which is bizarre given its former status as seat of empire, and history as crossroads between east and west.

Berlin is pretty ugly and comparatively poor, but is about 1000x cooler and more vibrant. Also a very open, friendly culture.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Milwaukee is a secondary node too. by percentage, It's #2 in the region, just ahead of KC.

Minneapolis and Detroit have more in raw numbers, but that's mainly a function of their much larger sizes, as their percentages are pretty middling, regionally speaking.

The numbers below are for all Latinos, not just Mexicans, but in most cases, the bulk of the Latino population is Mexican in origin anyway, so....


here are the 1M+ midwest/rustbelt MSAs ranked by percentage of latinos.


MSA latino population (census 2020):

chicago: 2,239,376 (23.3%)
milwaukee: 182,777 (11.6%)
kansas city: 229,233 (10.5%)
grand rapids: 110,671 (10.2%)
indianapolis: 177,787 (8.4%)
rochetser: 88,854 (8.1%)
minneapolis: 242,621 (6.8%)
cleveland: 133,862 (6.4%)
buffalo: 67,476 (5.8%)
columbus: 110,967 (5.2%)
detroit: 219,953 (5.0%)
cincinnati: 95,073 (4.2%)
st. louis: 106,269 (3.8%)
pittsburgh: 52,920 (2.2%)



nationally, latinos now make up 18.5% of the US population as of 2020. chicago is the only major MSA in the midwest/rusbelt that is more or less aligned with the national share.

what's more, chicagoland has more total latinos than those 13 other MSAs combined!

chicagoland: 2,239,376 (23.3%)
the others: 1,818,463 (6.3%)

Not so for Cleveland, Buffalo, and Rochester, with the majority of Hispanics still of Puerto Rican origin.

Mexican percentage (of total Hispanic population) is only 3.1% in Rochester (78% PR), 9.5% in Buffalo (67.7% PR), and 10% in Cleveland (74.4% PR). Also, its only 30% of Mexican origin in Pittsburgh (26% PR). This is likely due to these cities being bypassed by the the waves of Mexican immigrants in the 1970s-2000s due to the deindustrialization and lack of jobs in these cities at the time, and the overall shrinking of the population. Pittsburgh numbers may be higher as the city began its recovery earlier than the others. (Note that ancestry percentages are based on 2010 Census data)

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Vienna felt to me like almost the complete opposite of Berlin. I liked it as a city, but it didn't seem nearly as diverse as Berlin, and felt like an overall more conservative culture than what you encounter in Berlin. I also noticed public mentions of Hitler in Vienna, while I don't think I've ever seen Hitler's name written/mentioned anywhere in Berlin.

That's very problematic. So I guess it's a city for a 3-4 days trip, covering the touristic hotspots and that's it.

Berlin is indeed amazing. You feel welcomed, it seems you belong to the place immediately. An amazing city. And I had this silly small grudge against it as I thought people exaggerated Berlin's qualities. I was proved wrong: the city is all that.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Vienna, on the surface, seems fantastic, as its second only to Paris in terms of a monumental European city, and is imbued with grandeur. Austrians (outside of maybe Tyrol) are kind of a difficult bunch, however, and there are cultural elements that make Vienna less than the sum of its parts (IMO). Vienna feels kind of parochial/provincial, which is bizarre given its former status as seat of empire, and history as crossroads between east and west.

Berlin is pretty ugly and comparatively poor, but is about 1000x cooler and more vibrant. Also a very open, friendly culture.

How does Vienna compare to Munich? Even though Munich is wealthier and way more sober than Berlin, with a minuscule nightlife compared, I liked the city.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Vienna, on the surface, seems fantastic, as its second only to Paris in terms of a monumental European city, and is imbued with grandeur.

Yeah, I was going to mention that as well. Vienna avoided the destruction that met Berlin (from both war and urban renewal projects). Vienna is very much one of those grand looking European capitals like Paris, Rome, London, Barcelona, etc.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

That's very problematic. So I guess it's a city for a 3-4 days trip, covering the touristic hotspots.

Yeah, I think that's about right. It wasn't a boring place, and I'll likely visit it again, but if Berlin is the standard then Vienna is the opposite of it. To me, if Rio de Janeiro is the Berlin of South America, then Santiago de Chile is the Vienna lol. But I actually like Vienna more than I liked Santiago...

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Yuri

How does Vienna compare to Munich? Even though Munich is wealthier and way more sober than Berlin, with a minuscule nightlife compared, I liked the city.

Vienna is much grander than Munich, with more high profile visitor attractions. Historically it was a much bigger city, and wasn't totally destroyed during WW2 like Munich.

There are some similarities, though. Two of the wealthiest Germanic cities, both very economically vibrant and pretty diverse. Bavarians are much friendlier and more laid-back.

I'd rather live in Munich, by far. But I'd probably rather visit Vienna, since it has so much history. But for most visitors, I wouldn't suggest spending more than 3-4 days. It isn't like a Paris, Rome or London, where the attractions are endless.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yeah, I think that's about right. It wasn't a boring place, and I'll likely visit it again, but if Berlin is the standard then Vienna is the opposite of it. To me, if Rio de Janeiro is the Berlin of South America, then Santiago de Chile is the Vienna lol. But I actually like Vienna more than I liked Santiago...

Yeah, I've never been there, but I heard bad things about Santiago on this regard. A sleepy, conservative metropolis. It's considered touristic to Brazilians, they find it neat, but the main attraction is the vineyards, Atacama and Patagonia. It appeals to the 50's-60's y/o crowd.

You mentioned Rio, but Buenos Aires provides an even starker contrast as both speak the same language, are national capitals and have a similar weather. BA has an amazing and very busy nightlife, people are outgoing and liberal.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ chicago's mexican-american community was respectably large a lot earlier than most people would probably suspect for a city 1,200 miles NE of the border region.

by 1960, the city was already home to 23,000 people born in mexico.

and it just kept blowing-up from there. today, chicagoland is home to ~1.5M people of mexican ancestry.

to say that "Mexicans saved Chicago!" is obviously over-stating things, but over the past handful of decades, they own it more than any other single ethnic group.



a much less abandoned city + TACOS!!!

thank you, mexico.

What are the other top international ethnic groups and how does Mexican immigration compare to those?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by benp

Not so for Cleveland, Buffalo, and Rochester, with the majority of Hispanics still of Puerto Rican origin.

right, which is why i qualified my statement with "in most cases".

generally speaking in the US, the further east you go, the more carribean-origin the latino population is vs. mexican-origin.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Vienna is much grander than Munich, with more high profile visitor attractions. Historically it was a much bigger city, and wasn't totally destroyed during WW2 like Munich.

There are some similarities, though. Two of the wealthiest Germanic cities, both very economically vibrant and pretty diverse. Bavarians are much friendlier and more laid-back.

I'd rather live in Munich, by far. But I'd probably rather visit Vienna, since it has so much history. But for most visitors, I wouldn't suggest spending more than 3-4 days. It isn't like a Paris, Rome or London, where the attractions are endless.

Yeah, I imagined Vienna has a much bigger historical core than Munich, after all, it was much bigger in the past.

About people's personalities, I found Munich's people nice: international, welcoming and friendly. Of course, nightlife is very weak. I didn't mind much as I was still heading to Berlin.