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  #14081  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2020, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
Yeah, I took my numbers of units and commercial space from the clemens construction website posted above. Not sure if that conforms to the approved plans.

Lincoln Square is a very good comparison - I live relatively close to there. Unattractive design at a prominent intersection (ugly cladding, boxy design; they did preserve a cool train shed but also did a great job of hiding the one cool aspect of the design from view), but that is hardly noticeable on the ground once it is built. And LVL North sounds like it will be a neighborhood draw with a grocery store plus other retail (like Lincoln Square is).
People's problem isn't the uses, it's the design. It's very ugly and very prominent. It's Lincoln Square 2.0 as you say, but worse. But of course, if I lived in the neighborhood, I'd be thrilled about the grocery store and more retail and residents, but it's just so goddamn ugly. You would think rents would support better design at this location.
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  #14082  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2020, 8:48 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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It Ain’t Wellshaus, But Delaware Ave. is Getting A Huge Project

Demo happening:


Project rendering:


Read more here:
http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...g-huge-project
Delayed response, but I wish Canal Street in the rear would be treated as the cool urban treasure that it is. I believe its going to be parking or some sort as access road due to the stupid parking minimums. It would be cool to create a funky commercial street, sort of like a mini meatpacking district in Philadelphia. The project is decent looking at least and other link to activating Delaware Ave.


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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
I get that it is an ugly design, but the "LVL North" building includes 410 apartments plus 110K in commercial space. Arthaus, on the other hand, only has 108 condos. So that's housing maybe 500 people at Spring Garden compared to maybe 250 at Spruce Street? I'm guessing Arthaus is on a significantly smaller lot, but shouldn't we be pressing for a lot more density there? I don't get why the Broad and Spring Garden is hated so much.
More residents and commercial space is good, BUT, 5 stories and I assume completely clad in cheap plastics/metals? New apartment buildings in King of Prussia, Media and Ardmore are taller and invoke better designs, that is not how this should work. This is just cheap and embarrassing, right with Lincoln Square and 1900 Arch (that building is horrific, flies under the radar).

I also wonder what is the reasoning for 5 stories? Zoning? Anything over 5 results in the use of metal / steel framing as apposed to wood, which drives up the cost, but that cannot be that detrimental to cost.

If this building were 8-15 stories, clad in a mix of brick / dark metal, or pre-cast concrete panels it would be a win all around. I love seeing development in this area, but this is a circumstance where I would take a parking lot for another year and wait for a half decent project. (not even expecting an A+ project, I will settle for a B-, this if an F).

A shame the city doesn't step in and demand a minimum aesthetic for projects of this size and scale. But asking the city to do anything logical is pipe dream...
I expect more of this as the abatement is slashed and construction costs remain astronomical. Philadelphia is one of the great architecture cities of America, so seeing stuff like this makes me cringe...
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  #14083  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2020, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
I get that it is an ugly design, but the "LVL North" building includes 410 apartments plus 110K in commercial space. Arthaus, on the other hand, only has 108 condos. So that's housing maybe 500 people at Spring Garden compared to maybe 250 at Spruce Street? I'm guessing Arthaus is on a significantly smaller lot, but shouldn't we be pressing for a lot more density there? I don't get why the Broad and Spring Garden is hated so much.
The lot is nearly three times larger than the Arthaus lot. There will almost certainly be less people living here per square foot than at the Arthaus. When you also consider that LVL North has smaller apartments that will house a lot of young professionals living by themselves and the Arthaus is designed to be accommodate families, that disparity will just grow larger.

Plus it's ugly as sin.

I do admit, that I did not realize how many apartments they were squeezing in here and it makes me happy that they managed to fit in so many despite the diminutive height. At least they're making some use of the subway stop and proximity to everything. But these are largely cold comforts, this is an ugly, poorly designed building, that does not take enough advantage of its location, literally on top of a subway stop right on the edge of center city.
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  #14084  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2020, 11:08 PM
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Just IMO, but while it may be a 'big' intersection with a subway station, I don't think anyone really wants to live at Broad and Spring Garden. People who want Center City aren't going to live north of Vine Street, and there's nothing really in the immediate vicinity to make anyone want to live there as opposed to a few blocks over in Fairmount or NoLibs.
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  #14085  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 3:46 AM
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Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
Just IMO, but while it may be a 'big' intersection with a subway station, I don't think anyone really wants to live at Broad and Spring Garden. People who want Center City aren't going to live north of Vine Street, and there's nothing really in the immediate vicinity to make anyone want to live there as opposed to a few blocks over in Fairmount or NoLibs.
If people didnt want to live a few blocks North of Vine they wouldnt be building shit.

Even though the area isnt technically "center city" it might as well be since the amount of growth and new contstruction is expanding the dense areas in the city. Esp around that area.

Plus saying "but while it may be a 'big' intersection with a subway station, I don't think anyone really wants to live at Broad and Spring Garden." is crazy to say because

1. its by a subway station & remind me how many we have in philly again?

2. Broad and Spring Garden isnt a rundown area coming up its a prominet E-W street that has many businesses, traffic, people and more on it. Plenty of people would want to live there.

The issue is building a short building like that on a very soild CORNER with a skyscraper thats 40+ stories a block down from it. It's ignorant to the area, and future growth that will come.
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  #14086  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 4:14 AM
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Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
Just IMO, but while it may be a 'big' intersection with a subway station, I don't think anyone really wants to live at Broad and Spring Garden. People who want Center City aren't going to live north of Vine Street, and there's nothing really in the immediate vicinity to make anyone want to live there as opposed to a few blocks over in Fairmount or NoLibs.
I just fundamentally disagree with this. Being just a few blocks away from fun and interesting places means being close to fun and interesting places. A 10 minute walk is not far and there are dozens of bars and restaurants within a 10 minute walk of here. It's honestly kind of in the middle of a ton stuff, you could walk to bars and restaurants in both Fairmount and NoLibs and center city.

And even if that wasn't the case. All it really needs is a subway station to make people want to live here. You think people aren't exactly jumping at the idea of living at Broad and Spring Garden? Look at what's happening around the Huntingdon El Station, you think people want to live there because they're in love with the local charm and amenities? Access to a subway station is huge, you just need to look at all the development around stations in much worse locations than this one to see that.
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  #14087  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
There will almost certainly be less people living here per square foot than at the Arthaus. When you also consider that LVL North has smaller apartments that will house a lot of young professionals living by themselves and the Arthaus is designed to be accommodate families, that disparity will just grow larger.

Plus it's ugly as sin.
Do you really think families are going to live at Arthaus? Maybe a few, but I picture it more pied a terres for boomer retirees. That's why I thought 250 was a good estimate for 108 units. 500 younger people at LVL North will also add a lot more dynamism to the city than 250 older people at Arthaus. We need both types of housing, but so many of the projects lauded on this page are the architecturally beautiful low-density (per SF of apartment space) bourgeois homes when the mid-rate young professional or student apartment buildings are more essential to the city's growth.

The other thing is I don't think LVL North is that ugly. Unremarkable, yes. Too short, yes. Cheapish facade materials, yes. But it's not garish. It would look fine in Denver and Seattle.

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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
All it really needs is a subway station to make people want to live here. You think people aren't exactly jumping at the idea of living at Broad and Spring Garden? Look at what's happening around the Huntingdon El Station, you think people want to live there because they're in love with the local charm and amenities? Access to a subway station is huge, you just need to look at all the development around stations in much worse locations than this one to see that.
Sadly, I don't think the BSL (north of center city) has the same draw as the MFL (in the river wards area) among developers or prospective apartment dwellers.
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  #14088  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post

Sadly, I don't think the BSL (north of center city) has the same draw as the MFL (in the river wards area) among developers or prospective apartment dwellers.
Maybe not yet but momentum is building and it's only a matter of time until it catches up.
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  #14089  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
If people didnt want to live a few blocks North of Vine they wouldnt be building shit.

Even though the area isnt technically "center city" it might as well be since the amount of growth and new contstruction is expanding the dense areas in the city. Esp around that area.

Plus saying "but while it may be a 'big' intersection with a subway station, I don't think anyone really wants to live at Broad and Spring Garden." is crazy to say because

1. its by a subway station & remind me how many we have in philly again?

2. Broad and Spring Garden isnt a rundown area coming up its a prominet E-W street that has many businesses, traffic, people and more on it. Plenty of people would want to live there.

The issue is building a short building like that on a very soild CORNER with a skyscraper thats 40+ stories a block down from it. It's ignorant to the area, and future growth that will come.
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
I just fundamentally disagree with this. Being just a few blocks away from fun and interesting places means being close to fun and interesting places. A 10 minute walk is not far and there are dozens of bars and restaurants within a 10 minute walk of here. It's honestly kind of in the middle of a ton stuff, you could walk to bars and restaurants in both Fairmount and NoLibs and center city.

And even if that wasn't the case. All it really needs is a subway station to make people want to live here. You think people aren't exactly jumping at the idea of living at Broad and Spring Garden? Look at what's happening around the Huntingdon El Station, you think people want to live there because they're in love with the local charm and amenities? Access to a subway station is huge, you just need to look at all the development around stations in much worse locations than this one to see that.
I completely agree that there is going to continue to be growth on the North Broad corridor - I've posted several times that I'm particularly excited for the 1300 Fairmount development in particular, as I think transforming that empty lot into a huge new development (with a grocery store!) will do wonders for the neighborhood. And I live in Francisville so I'm familiar with this area. But as of now, I don't think North Broad is a destination for people, and I don't see anything changing that in the immediate future. I remember someone used to post the percentage of new apartment buildings that were rented. I'm too lazy to try to find them now, but I remember the apartments along North Broad (I'm specifically thinking of the Hanover North Broad development, but there was 1 or 2 others IIRC) had some of the lowest rental percentages of all the newer developments. Obviously we're talking a small sample size, but I still think it's indicative of the fact that the market isn't super interested in North Broad right now. And while it's sort of in the middle of a lot, it's definitely not walking distance to NoLibs (or Fishtown, for that matter), and not really walkable to most of Center City (it's a ~13 minute walk to City Hall, and that's straight down Broad Street; anything further than that isn't really going to be "walkable" to most people). If you look at what's within the immediate vicinity (this is pretty arbitrary, but I'll say between Vine and Fairmount, 11th and 18th), it's... not much, particularly when compared to most other hot-spots in the greater Center City area.

To be clear, I'm happy for the development, I'm just trying to explain why they're not building something bigger and why they likely settled on the size that they did. Maybe I am thinking of this too much as a Millennial and am failing to see the draw that others do - I'm certainly willing to be wrong! But ultimately I don't think Broad and Spring Garden is a super attractive location right now.

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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
Sadly, I don't think the BSL (north of center city) has the same draw as the MFL (in the river wards area) among developers or prospective apartment dwellers.
Completely agree with this. In South Philly maybe it has some draw (and in particular I think has been a draw for people to move to the neighborhoods west of Broad Street) but I don't know anyone who moved to be closer to the BSL north of Center City.

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Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
Maybe not yet but momentum is building and it's only a matter of time until it catches up.
Totally agree with this as well, FWIW.
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  #14090  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 7:59 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
Do you really think families are going to live at Arthaus? Maybe a few, but I picture it more pied a terres for boomer retirees. That's why I thought 250 was a good estimate for 108 units. 500 younger people at LVL North will also add a lot more dynamism to the city than 250 older people at Arthaus. We need both types of housing, but so many of the projects lauded on this page are the architecturally beautiful low-density (per SF of apartment space) bourgeois homes when the mid-rate young professional or student apartment buildings are more essential to the city's growth.

The other thing is I don't think LVL North is that ugly. Unremarkable, yes. Too short, yes. Cheapish facade materials, yes. But it's not garish. It would look fine in Denver and Seattle.



Sadly, I don't think the BSL (north of center city) has the same draw as the MFL (in the river wards area) among developers or prospective apartment dwellers.
I have no idea if families will live in the Arthaus, I have no market data or anything even remotely like that. But they certainly could. I mean honestly, all but the smallest units in the place have more sq footage than the average Philly rowhome. The place is filled with 2-3 bedroom apartments with plenty of space, giant balconies and sits in the McCall catchment. So again, no idea what happens, but your numbers definitely seem conservative to me.

As I said previously, I think it's great that that LVL North packed as many units in as it did. I agree that housing of this type is desperately needed in Philly, and I'm glad some of those needs will be met. But again, even with your conservative population estimates for the arthaus, it still will house more people per sq ft than LVL North. So it's hard to be too excited about a development that is less dense than the low-density bourgeois homes of the Arthaus.

I'll respectfully disagree on the aesthetics. It could turn out fine, but generally when the renderings look like this, the end result is worse.

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Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
And while it's sort of in the middle of a lot, it's definitely not walking distance to NoLibs (or Fishtown, for that matter), and not really walkable to most of Center City (it's a ~13 minute walk to City Hall, and that's straight down Broad Street; anything further than that isn't really going to be "walkable" to most people). If you look at what's within the immediate vicinity (this is pretty arbitrary, but I'll say between Vine and Fairmount, 11th and 18th), it's... not much, particularly when compared to most other hot-spots in the greater Center City area.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to compare it to the other hot spots in greater Center City. I was comparing it to far flung subway stops like Huntingdon. Compared to areas like that I'd say this location comparatively looks pretty good. And while BSL has less cache than the MFL, there is little reason to see that continue. Besides you said it yourself, it's only a 13 minute walk from city hall. It's closer to an MFL stop then 95% of the city.

It's fine and I understand, certainly now, why they're moving forward with a short project like this. There's just only so many locations like this in the city and it feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.
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  #14091  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 8:30 PM
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The Broad and Bainbridge parking lot is fenced off and a notice of demolition is on the small structure.
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  #14092  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 9:46 PM
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The Broad and Bainbridge parking lot is fenced off and a notice of demolition is on the small structure.
What is slated to be built there?
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  #14093  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 10:15 PM
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The Broad and Bainbridge parking lot is fenced off and a notice of demolition is on the small structure.
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
What is slated to be built there?
https://atlas.phila.gov/#/701%20S%20BROAD%20ST/li

http://s3.amazonaws.com/eclipse-docs...g/00249045.pdf
For the erection of an attached structure with a roof deck (accessed by pilot houses/elevator overruns; to be used by residential tenants only), using the height and floor area ratio increases granted by the Moderate Income Housing Bonus as per 14-702(7),size and location as shown on plan/application.APPROVED USE(S) Residential - Household Living - Multi-Family; Visitor Accommodations

For use as vacant commercial space at the ground floor (separate use permit required prior to occupancy, no uses as prohibited in the South Broad Street Area Overlay District in Table 14-502-2), with Multi-Family Household Living (Fifty (50) Dwelling Units)at the 2nd through 7th floors, and Visitor Accommodations (Four (4) Rooms; no access to roof deck) at the 2nd floor, withtwenty-five (25) accessory Class 1A bicycle parking spaces (located along an accessible route), with sixteen (16) accessory off-street parking spaces provided off-site at 1441 South Street (see AP#1027881), and one (1) van-accessible accessory surface parking spot on-site.
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  #14094  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:25 PM
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https://atlas.phila.gov/#/701%20S%20BROAD%20ST/li

http://s3.amazonaws.com/eclipse-docs...g/00249045.pdf
For the erection of an attached structure with a roof deck (accessed by pilot houses/elevator overruns; to be used by residential tenants only), using the height and floor area ratio increases granted by the Moderate Income Housing Bonus as per 14-702(7),size and location as shown on plan/application.APPROVED USE(S) Residential - Household Living - Multi-Family; Visitor Accommodations

For use as vacant commercial space at the ground floor (separate use permit required prior to occupancy, no uses as prohibited in the South Broad Street Area Overlay District in Table 14-502-2), with Multi-Family Household Living (Fifty (50) Dwelling Units)at the 2nd through 7th floors, and Visitor Accommodations (Four (4) Rooms; no access to roof deck) at the 2nd floor, withtwenty-five (25) accessory Class 1A bicycle parking spaces (located along an accessible route), with sixteen (16) accessory off-street parking spaces provided off-site at 1441 South Street (see AP#1027881), and one (1) van-accessible accessory surface parking spot on-site.

That's great news (depending on a rendering) but 7 floors is great for here. We need these damn empty lots from Broad and South to Broad and Washington to fill in so eventually taller buildings will be in demand. The Popeyes, Rite Aid and McDonald's are also huge eyesores.
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  #14095  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 8:28 PM
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Hmmm....

The Sixers are targeting Penn’s Landing for a potential new basketball arena

Not sure this is a good idea. Penn's landing would be a pain in the ass to get to via transit, and via car. Article says they want to be in a different stadium by 2031. Where else could they put it? I still think the Disney Hole would be perfect (assuming you have to demo the existing building).
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  #14096  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2020, 12:07 AM
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hmmm....

the sixers are targeting penn’s landing for a potential new basketball arena

not sure this is a good idea. Penn's landing would be a pain in the ass to get to via transit, and via car. Article says they want to be in a different stadium by 2031. Where else could they put it? I still think the disney hole would be perfect (assuming you have to demo the existing building).
terrible terrible idea!
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  #14097  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2020, 12:58 AM
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regarding the sixers arena, it is good to see that the immediate reaction is almost entirely negative. the parking alone would destroy so much of the potential of the waterfront. if even 40-50% of the current riverfront proposals happen between penn treaty and washington ave, it will completely change the face of delaware ave. it really feels as if we are on the cusp of starting to see the central delaware master plan come to life and this would be a huge blow (worth checking out here if you’re unfamiliar).

as a longtime, diehard sixers fan who would be able to walk to games if this happened, i could not be more against this...and that’s not even considering the proposed public funding.

Last edited by El Duderino; Aug 27, 2020 at 12:59 AM. Reason: forgot a word!
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  #14098  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2020, 6:20 AM
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^^^^^
30th. St. Station area! Maybe it could jump start the development north of the station. I wonder how much the public is going to be expected to kick in for something like this to happen.
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  #14099  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2020, 11:58 AM
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^^^^^
30th. St. Station area! Maybe it could jump start the development north of the station. I wonder how much the public is going to be expected to kick in for something like this to happen.
I like it!
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  #14100  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2020, 12:21 PM
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^^^^^
30th. St. Station area! Maybe it could jump start the development north of the station. I wonder how much the public is going to be expected to kick in for something like this to happen.
Minus the whole public contribution issue (a big one), another major irritation is the idea of the Sixers abandoning the Sports Complex.

That area is finally coming together, all the stadiums (less soccer) are there, the casino is finishing, Xfinity Live, that new gamer thing.

20 years ago it was a shame the stadiums were randomly dotted away from the city core, but its rather unique and provided the opportunity to create a full sports /gaming center that does not interfere with the city or most residents.

If the Sixers must get a new stadium, why can't it be built in that complex?

I know the 30th Street project could use a boost, but this would be a good time for the city to hunker down and develop a plan to attract new businesses to the city / region or focus efforts on growing existing businesses. The Sixers taking up space near 30th Street is another sad game of musical chairs that masquerades as good development and lets the city slide.

(And I know asking the city to do something logical is a dream...)
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