Next Midwest City To Build A Tower Over 700' Tall

[Steely Dan]

I moved all of the off topic Hudson Tower chatter to the appropriate thread:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...59#post9005159

[Steely Dan]

Back on topic, milwaukee did have a very seriously rumored plan for a new 50-story HQ office tower for Johnson Controls several years back.

The plan fizzled after JC merged with Ireland's Tyco and the official HQ was moved to Ireland for corporate tax purposes.

But had it actually gone through, it would have almost certainly stood taller than 700'.

Oh well.....


According to those who saw them, there were apparently real drawings prepared for the project; I wonder if they'll ever see the light of day.

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by edale

No, I don't think that's true. Downtown St. Louis is technically not the eastern edge of the region, but given the dead zone of East St. Louis, you don't actually get to real neighborhoods and commerce for several miles east of the river. And once you've reached the activity on the IL side, it's just regular crappy sprawl-- no real destination or regional draw (someone please correct me if wrong). St. Louis famously sprawls west. As this discussion has indicated, the movement of money and people to the west is a well documented phenomenon in StL. This is how the city developed the impressive central corridor, the secondary downtown in Clayton, etc.

If East St. Louis was healthy and populous, or if the airport or something of regional importance was located in IL, it would have helped Downtown St. Louis remain centered regionally. I know that having the airport in Northern Kentucky has helped retain downtown Cincinnati's significance in the region. Same with having healthy, attractive neighborhoods and business districts. If Northern Kentucky was a wasteland ala East St. Louis, there's no doubt that Downtown Cincinnati would have suffered more than it did, and the locus of control would be fully in the northern suburbs.

Scott Air Force Base and Southern Illinois University-Edwardsville are both within at least 30 minutes of downtown St. Louis in Illinois. You also have cities like Alton, Belleville, Edwardsville, etc, that have walkable downtowns like what you'd find over in Missouri. You are correct that the new developments are primarily regular sprawl cul-de-sacs (think what's going in today in places like O'Fallon, IL). There's also recreational activity (the Great River Road and Cahokia Mounds, for example), that being said you are correct that the majority of the attractions are over on the Missouri side.

What's interesting though is that metro St. Louis might sprawl nearly as far east as it does west. The difference is that there's more people living in Missouri, meaning there's gaps full of cornfields in-between the population centers over in Illinois.

Additionally even when East St. Louis was at its height it's worth noting that it didn't cover a large section of the east riverfront in comparison to St. Louis. It sprawled eastward toward where Belleville then begins. It was surrounded by a levee system and a lot of floodplains, similar to how it is today. Now it's just urban decay and floodplains.

[Centropolis]

the east st. louis riverfront area was a spread of roundhouses, coaling stations, and switching yards for eastern railroads. it was (and still has some large more modern railyards lile kansas city southern, etc) a railroad town through and through...today there is several feet of coal ash and assorted debris there under the interstate and railroad flyovers.

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the east st. louis riverfront area was a spread of roundhouses, coaling stations, and switching yards for eastern railroads. it was (and still has some large more modern railyards lile kansas city southern, etc) a railroad town through and through...today there is several feet of coal ash and assorted debris there under the interstate and railroad flyovers.

For sure. It is worth noting just how small that stretch of the east riverfront that ESL makes up today is though. It starts just south of the Stan Musial Bridge on the north end (I-70 for those not familiar) and extends southward about a mile further south than the Poplar Street Bridge (I-55/64).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion

For sure. It is worth noting just how small that stretch of the east riverfront that ESL makes up today is though. It starts just south of the Stan Musial Bridge on the north end (I-70 for those not familiar) and extends southward about a mile further south than the Poplar Street Bridge (I-55/64).

right, the company towns (though east st. louis was also essentially one) bookend it either way.

most notably sauget, il, once known as monsanto, illinois and now the best known town to get into trouble at sunrise... to the north the minor stripper towns of brooklyn, venice, and then lil south city - granite city (named after some kind of product like tableware or sinething, i don’t recall). on to the refinery towns, then alton as the hat, elsah as the freaky new englandy string (with principia college) and grafton as the tassle (named for grafton, massachussetts and Motto: “Key West of the Midwest” which i didnt know...)

obviously i skipped over old belleville and others.

i have no idea why i wrote all of that but i’m in the illinois satellites all the time and know them better than most st. louisans snd i’ve been drinking of some beer.

[Centropolis]

belleville is like the ancient, stag fueled reproductive hangdown jutting out into sw illinois

belleville actually has a sort of its own small cultural hinterland that dribbles south into “southwest” illinois near the mississippi river. you can still track it with by documenting the big funny stag billboards and rural microbrewery density. theres like rolling german settled countryside

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion

For sure. It is worth noting just how small that stretch of the east riverfront that ESL makes up today is though. It starts just south of the Stan Musial Bridge on the north end (I-70 for those not familiar) and extends southward about a mile further south than the Poplar Street Bridge (I-55/64).

i see what you are saying though to your original point. i went off on a thing

as an aside, i once was working in east st louos and had to go into an elderly mans basement. his walls were lined with hundreds or thousands of LPs and he spun amazing rhythm and blues for us

east st louis was of course this concentrated prometheus of important twentieth century american sounds. perhaps i should have recognized the man

[Centropolis]

per fucking unit or whatever east st. louis was more important musically than st. louis, chicago, and probably any number of other places.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

right, the company towns (though east st. louis was also essentially one) bookend it either way.

most notably sauget, il, once known as monsanto, illinois and now the best known town to get into trouble at sunrise... to the north the minor stripper towns of brooklyn, venice, and then lil south city - granite city (named after some kind of product like tableware or sinething, i don’t recall). on to the refinery towns, then alton as the hat, elsah as the freaky new englandy string (with principia college) and grafton as the tassle (named for grafton, massachussetts and Motto: “Key West of the Midwest” which i didnt know...)

obviously i skipped over old belleville and others.

i have no idea why i wrote all of that but i’m in the illinois satellites all the time and know them better than most st. louisans snd i’ve been drinking of some beer.

Wow, Brooklyn Illinois looks especially awful. It's sad that this historic town is now basically sustained by strip clubs.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6570...7i13312!8i6656


If Downtown SL had more draw, you'd think at least there would be some riverfront development other than the casino at the East Riverfront Metrolink Station. I guess it doesn't help that there's no actual riverfront access.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Wow, Brooklyn Illinois looks especially awful:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6570...7i13312!8i6656


If Downtown SL had more draw, you'd think at least there would be some riverfront development other than the casino at the East Riverfront Metrolink Station. I guess it doesn't help that there's no actual riverfront access.

brooklyn is terrible and there was sime manhattan project related kerfuffle but its where you go (or used to go) if you considered yourself a learned strip club aficionado. sauget was fucking gauche.

[mrnyc]

apart from sherwin williams, another tall one for cleveland is the new city justice center complex. that is for consolidated courts, jails, etc.. it's likely going to happen in the next five years.

aside from being a brutalist eyesore, the old one is 8th tallest in cle and is a money pit that is not worth repairing.

a new justice center will be at least 35 floors minimum, but could be taller. someone wrote these possible size conjectures on uo blog, so we will see:


I have to believe they will at least use 25,000 sq ft plates. Stokes Federal Courthouse officially listed as 18.7 ft per floor.

877,000 sq ft with 25,000 sq ft floor plates = 35 floors. At 16 ft per floor = 560ft. At 18.7 ft per floor = 654.5 ft.

1,077,000 sq ft with 25,000 sq ft floor plates = 43 floors. At 16 ft per floor = 688ft. At 18.7 ft = 804 ft.

[mhays]

Those floor-to-floor heights would typically be just the courtroom floors. No need for high ceilings elsewhere.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

Those floor-to-floor heights would typically be just the courtroom floors. No need for high ceilings elsewhere.

it can depend.

the Daley Center in Chicago has ~19' floor-to-floors for all 31 of its floors.

together with the large mechanical space at the top, the total building height is 648', which is pretty damn tall for a 31 floor flat-roofed tower.

i'm pretty sure that it doesn't have courtrooms on all levels, but the the floor-to-floor heights were kept the same throughout, perhaps to keep the rhythm of the highly-expressed exterior aesthetic consistent and intact.


source: https://www.skyscrapercenter.com/bui...ey-center/1780

[mrnyc]

it also depends on how many branches of the courts they want to move in there.

it will at least top the 23-story/430 feet (130 m) tall stokes fed courthouse tower, currently the fourth tallest courthouse in the country.

[Austin55]

I'm curious the next city to build a 700 footer (that doesn't already have one or has'nt in the last ~30 years) in the US even outside the midwest.

Austin is joining the club. Las Vegas is basically there with The Drew. Beyond those two, lots of options but maybe not many possibilities.

[The North One]

I didn't know the Drew was 730ft+ tall

It's so obnoxiously fat it doesn't look like a tall building. Makes the fact that it's been looming over Las Vegas empty since it topped out in the great recession that more horrifying.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Wow, Brooklyn Illinois looks especially awful. It's sad that this historic town is now basically sustained by strip clubs.

But if only DT had more draw this nuclear test site/village 3 miles or so from downtown on the other side of the river would be a metropolis.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If Downtown SL had more draw, you'd think at least there would be some riverfront development other than the casino at the East Riverfront Metrolink Station. I guess it doesn't help that there's no actual riverfront access.

first, like you said, there isn't really a stretch of the IL riverfront that's amenable to development. it's a working riverfront. there's a grain silo almost directly across from the Arch, and directly across is Malcolm W. Martin Memorial Park, home of the tallest fountain in North America—the Gateway Geyser. From the park website:

On June 7th, 2005, Gateway Center of Metropolitan St. Louis transferred title of the Gateway Geyser and 30+ undeveloped acres of land to Metro East Park and Recreation District (MEPRD). The Gateway Center worked tirelessly for 40 years to protect the property from commercial development and with the transfer, entrusted MEPRD with the task of bringing to transforming the property into Malcolm W. Martin Memorial Park. On June 18th, 2005, the park was officially dedicated in honor of the man whose passion, dedication and generosity made the project possible.

https://www.theparkwithaview.com/about

So there's that.

i think some here are underestimating the amount of "draw" that DT STL would have to have to fix E. STL. it couldn't fix it back when DT was still the center of shopping and the city population was still over 600K (as recently as the 70s). it would take an insane explosion in population for E. STL to become valuable enough that anyone would invest the billions of dollars needed to clean it up and turn it around. this is a problem with the state of IL basically not giving a shit about anything south of Chicago (or maybe south of Springfield) and letting E. STL become a toxic waste dump. like others have said, the metro has expanded in every direction from DT STL, but that development (suburban as some of it may be) has completely leap-frogged E. STL. there are reasons for that beyond "DT STL doesn't have enough draw."

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

belleville is like the ancient, stag fueled reproductive hangdown jutting out into sw illinois

belleville actually has a sort of its own small cultural hinterland that dribbles south into “southwest” illinois near the mississippi river. you can still track it with by documenting the big funny stag billboards and rural microbrewery density. theres like rolling german settled countryside

I mean, now that Stag has become metro St. Louis' answer to hipsters drinking PBR, why not? Fun fact: Belleville is the largest city in Southern Illinois for the moment.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If Downtown SL had more draw, you'd think at least there would be some riverfront development other than the casino at the East Riverfront Metrolink Station. I guess it doesn't help that there's no actual riverfront access.

It's a floodplain. That's why there's 76 miles worth of levees along the Illinois side of the Mississippi going from Madison County in the north, through St. Clair County (where ESL is) and the east riverfront, and all the way south into Monroe County.

The city of St. Louis is sitting on higher ground. It's become an island disconnected from its flooding suburbs in years past due to it being higher.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

brooklyn is terrible and there was sime manhattan project related kerfuffle but its where you go (or used to go) if you considered yourself a learned strip club aficionado. sauget was fucking gauche.

Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL

But if only DT had more draw this nuclear test site/village 3 miles or so from downtown on the other side of the river would be a metropolis.

What's this about nuclear testing in the Metro East? It was my understanding that the waste from the Manhattan Project ended up in a factory in downtown St. Louis and the West Lake Landfill in Bridgeton.

i think some here are underestimating the amount of "draw" that DT STL would have to have to fix E. STL. it couldn't fix it back when DT was still the center of shopping and the city population was still over 600K (as recently as the 70s). it would take an insane explosion in population for E. STL to become valuable enough that anyone would invest the billions of dollars needed to clean it up and turn it around. this is a problem with the state of IL basically not giving a shit about anything south of Chicago (or maybe south of Springfield) and letting E. STL become a toxic waste dump. like others have said, the metro has expanded in every direction from DT STL, but that development (suburban as some of it may be) has completely leap-frogged E. STL. there are reasons for that beyond "DT STL doesn't have enough draw."

East St. Louis actually had suburban style development on its eastern edges decades ago. Some of it still constitutes some of the most intact portions of the city. I'm talking over by the borders with Belleville and Caseyville.

Also, the "Illinois doesn't care about anything south of Chicago" is such a Republican talking point. Pritzker played well in St. Clair County, and he's there often. The trouble is that everyone has tried over the decades to fix ESL and little has worked.

In terms of today though, Illinois has been investing in the Metro East. A project that comes to mind is Illinois' decision to extend the MetroLink to MidAmerica Airport that's due to be complete by 2023.

Another fun fact though: The Metro East is the largest (sub)urban area in Illinois outside of Chicagoland.

[kcexpress69]

Why anyone bothered to vote Kansas City (2 votes so far) is beyond me!! We can't even build something over 400 feet. It's been 30 years since the 1201 Walnut (the last 400 footer) was erected. Since then, nothing but infill. We did have a nice convention center hotel that was originally supposed to top 500 feet, but of course, that was redrawn to be only 22 stories, so less than 300 feet. Three Light, which was supposed to break ground, (until the pandemic hit) was supposed to be around 34 stories, so maybe close to 400 feet, but that project and others, are now postponed. Oh well, such is life in my great city.