CHICAGOLAND | Urban Development in the Burbs

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

interesting.

what about the other burbs with L service like wilmette, skokie, rosemont, oak park, forest park, and cicero? same deal?

I mis-spoke. All of suburban Cook is treated the same whether it's in the CTA service area or not.

The RTA sales tax was distributed thusly in 2021:

City of Chicago
RTA: 12%
CTA: 74%
Metra: 5%
Pace: 3%
Pace Paratransit: 6%

Suburban Cook (incl Evanston, Oak Park, Skokie, etc)
RTA: 12%
CTA: 26%
Metra: 42%
Pace: 13%
Pace Paratransit: 6%

Collar Counties
RTA: 5%
CTA: 10%
Metra: 30%
Pace: 13%
Pace Paratransit: 10%
County DOT (Roads): 33%

Purley based on this, you can see why Metra service in the city sucks - the city pays very little to support it. Also the largest chunk of the "transit tax" in the collar counties actually goes to roads, in 2021 this amounted to $167M/year. That amount could fund a LOT of extra Metra or Pace service.

[streetline]

I'm actually wondering whether it would be a good idea to expand yellow line service to Old Orchard, and add an infill station in the southern portion, and also through-run it to downtown (basically treating it as another branch of the purple line as far as the section south of Howard is concerned).

I like the idea of turning the area around the west side of Old Orchard into a walkable suburban downtown with El service. It would obviously take more than just these projects to make that transformation complete, and the expressway and the traffic it generates would likely mean the area would always be somewhat car centric, but it could definitely become more pedestrian and transit friendly than it is. I just don't know if it would make sense to do economically.

It looks like the yellow line used to be through routed to the loop almost a century ago in 1929, but I have no idea what the technical and infrastructure challenges of putting it back in that configuration would be:
https://www.chicago-l.org/operations/lines/yellow.html

[Jibba]

Originally Posted by kolchak

Evanston Gateway - Chicago Ave and Howard St

This is a nice-looking block of a building. Looks similar to something 2RZ architects would do — anyone know the firm? This is a great contemporary archetype for infill, IMO. I like the sage-green cladding (presuming that’s the final color). This is the antidote to the off-proportioned, ersatz-historical infill we typically get on the north side (up until recently, anyway; rzb designed a nice infill apartment block on the W side of Clark, just N of Montrose).

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by streetline

I'm actually wondering whether it would be a good idea to expand yellow line service to Old Orchard, and add an infill station in the southern portion, and also through-run it to downtown (basically treating it as another branch of the purple line as far as the section south of Howard is concerned).

I like the idea of turning the area around the west side of Old Orchard into a walkable suburban downtown with El service. It would obviously take more than just these projects to make that transformation complete, and the expressway and the traffic it generates would likely mean the area would always be somewhat car centric, but it could definitely become more pedestrian and transit friendly than it is. I just don't know if it would make sense to do economically.

It looks like the yellow line used to be through routed to the loop almost a century ago in 1929, but I have no idea what the technical and infrastructure challenges of putting it back in that configuration would be:
https://www.chicago-l.org/operations/lines/yellow.html

Overhead pickup to third rail transition is an easy solution, I think capacity would be the more important limitation.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Overhead pickup to third rail transition is an easy solution, I think capacity would be the more important limitation.

the yellow line was already fully converted to third rail about 20 years ago.

there's no section anywhwere on the L system that still uses overhead catenary for power anymore.

the swift was the last holdout until early this century, though metra electric and the south shore still use overhead power.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by streetline

I'm actually wondering whether it would be a good idea to expand yellow line service to Old Orchard, and add an infill station in the southern portion, and also through-run it to downtown (basically treating it as another branch of the purple line as far as the section south of Howard is concerned).

I like the idea of turning the area around the west side of Old Orchard into a walkable suburban downtown with El service. It would obviously take more than just these projects to make that transformation complete, and the expressway and the traffic it generates would likely mean the area would always be somewhat car centric, but it could definitely become more pedestrian and transit friendly than it is. I just don't know if it would make sense to do economically.

It looks like the yellow line used to be through routed to the loop almost a century ago in 1929, but I have no idea what the technical and infrastructure challenges of putting it back in that configuration would be:
https://www.chicago-l.org/operations/lines/yellow.html

I like that idea. With additional stations, maybe you could start seeing longer 6 car trains if it ultimately goes into the loop. I could imagine it running express from Howard to Belmont. Local from Belmont to Armitage and then express again to Chicago, where 4 track service is restored in the unused portions....with a smoothed out curve around North and Halsted and an infill station.

This would alleviate some crowding on the brown line. The idea would be to reduce the number of transfers and reduce that commute time downtown for Skokie residents. Plus Lincoln Park residents would benefit with a few minutes knocked off the commute time.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

the yellow line was already fully converted to third rail about 20 years ago.

there's no section anywhwere on the L system that still uses overhead catenary for power anymore.

the swift was the last holdout until early this century, though metra electric and the south shore still use overhead power.

Absolutely correct...my mistake. I still think of them as having pantographs no matter how long its been.

[kolchak]

Originally Posted by streetline

I'm actually wondering whether it would be a good idea to expand yellow line service to Old Orchard, and add an infill station in the southern portion, and also through-run it to downtown (basically treating it as another branch of the purple line as far as the section south of Howard is concerned).

I like the idea of turning the area around the west side of Old Orchard into a walkable suburban downtown with El service.

Do you mean the area occupied by Niles North High School?

BTW at 9:20 this morning there were a total of 8 passengers on the Swift between Dempster and Howard. I don't see expansion happening - especially in light of the coming funding gap when federal COVID emergency relief ends. They are already talking fare hikes and service reductions:

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/poli...-fares-service

[Chicago29]

Originally Posted by kolchak

Do you mean the area occupied by Niles North High School?

BTW at 9:20 this morning there were a total of 8 passengers on the Swift between Dempster and Howard. I don't see expansion happening - especially in light of the coming funding gap when federal COVID emergency relief ends. They are already talking fare hikes and service reductions:

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/poli...-fares-service

Yeah not saying a Yellow Line extension to Old Orchard couldn't possibly increase ridership in the future, particularly if it included a notable expansion of residential properties and commercial businesses. But if it existed today it still would get marginal ridership. Old Orchard has a lot of luxury stores like Louis Vuitton and the same shoppers who visit now will be the same who go in the future (higher-income North Shore residents with cars).

[Marcu]

Originally Posted by kolchak

Do you mean the area occupied by Niles North High School?

BTW at 9:20 this morning there were a total of 8 passengers on the Swift between Dempster and Howard. I don't see expansion happening…

Exactly. The entire discussion is silly unless there is also some plan to speed up the line. Even with thousands of new high density residences and a stop, most Old Orchard commuters would still find it faster to take Metra or drive.

[Kngkyle]

Extending the yellow line is perhaps the only project imaginable that could have a worse ROI than the red line extension.

.... so it'll probably happen next.

[streetline]

Originally Posted by kolchak

Do you mean the area occupied by Niles North High School?

BTW at 9:20 this morning there were a total of 8 passengers on the Swift between Dempster and Howard. I don't see expansion happening - especially in light of the coming funding gap when federal COVID emergency relief ends. They are already talking fare hikes and service reductions:

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/poli...-fares-service

I don't expect Niles North is going anywhere, although it would be nice if a convenient pedestrian path past it could be provided in the event that station were built.

And, yeah, current ridership and the coming fiscal cliff are both reasons I said I didn't know if it would make sense economically.

The Yellow Line is currently by far the weakest line in terms of ridership, with roughly 1/4 the ridership of the Purple Line (198k vs 792k) when looking at stations exclusively on that line.

But that statistic might be misleading since the Yellow Line only has 2 stations of it's own. If, rather than thinking of it as it's own line, you think of it as a branch at the end of the Purple Line (as my thru running suggestion would treat it), then there are another couple of 2-station branches at the ends of other lines to compare it to: the east and west branches of the south side Green Line along 63rd Street, with 109k and 125k boardings respectively.

Of course the Yellow Line is quite a bit longer than those branches, and thus may well cost more to run (I haven't looked for the numbers), but just in terms of it's station count and it's location near the edge of the system it seems similar and it compares favorably in terms of ridership.

(all of those ridership numbers are totals so far in 2022 as of the July CTA monthly ridership report)

[kolchak]

Originally Posted by Marcu

Exactly. The entire discussion is silly unless there is also some plan to speed up the line. Even with thousands of new high density residences and a stop, most Old Orchard commuters would still find it faster to take Metra or drive.

The Skokie Swift is plenty fast. The 5 mile trip from Dempster to Howard takes less than 10 minutes.

[r18tdi]

I didn't snap a pic, but there's a smallish mixed-use development going up across from the Braeside Metra station in Highland Park with 13 apartments above retail. It's only three stories tall and too over-parked to be considered a TOD, but it's pretty "urban" for this area.

Level Architecture did the design, which is contemporary and relatively daring for what is otherwise a single-family enclave packed with NIMBYs. If they were smart the retail would be a sandwich/wine/coffee shop that can cater to MTA commuters and the Ravinia festival crowd.

https://levelincorporated.com/work/view/55-st-johns


LEVEL Inc.

[Marcu]

Originally Posted by kolchak

The Skokie Swift is plenty fast. The 5 mile trip from Dempster to Howard takes less than 10 minutes.

Good point - that’s surprisingly fast. Looks like the purple/red connection is more of an issue which could be solved by running purple express from Fullerton to MM.

[Randomguy34]

Originally Posted by Marcu

Good point - that’s surprisingly fast. Looks like the purple/red connection is more of an issue which could be solved by running purple express from Fullerton to MM.

Yup, the Red/Purple Line connection is the main issue. According to Google Maps the Yellow Line takes 9 minutes to go to Howard. The Purple Line then takes 17 minutes to get to Belmont, then another 18 minutes to State/Lake. The Red Line is 22 minutes to Belmont but 15 minutes to State/Lake, so almost no time is saved when deciding between Red vs Purple Line. So to make the Yellow Line a more viable service, the Red/Purple Lines tracks and structures need to be fully rebuilt

[Jibba]

Originally Posted by r18tdi

Level Architecture did the design, which is contemporary and relatively daring for what is otherwise a single-family enclave packed with NIMBYs. If they were smart the retail would be a sandwich/wine/coffee shop that can cater to MTA commuters and the Ravinia festival crowd.

https://levelincorporated.com/work/view/55-st-johns

Enclaves with a large proportion of Jewish residents welcome contemporary architecture, I find. There are modernist houses all over Highland Park.

Speaking of sandwich shops, here's hoping the deli that was in the now-demolished strip mall re-opens in the new structure -- spectacular Italian subs.

[Marcu]

Originally Posted by Jibba

Speaking of sandwich shops, here's hoping the deli that was in the now-demolished strip mall re-opens in the new structure -- spectacular Italian subs.

Here’s hoping it doesn’t. You may want to google who owned that deli.

[r18tdi]

Originally Posted by Marcu

Here’s hoping it doesn’t. You may want to google who owned that deli.

I enjoyed a Bob's sub or two back in the day, but he's persona non grata in HP and for obvious reasons. He's also in no financial position to reopen a business anytime.
But I digress...

A Foxtrot style business would be perfect here.

[Jibba]

Originally Posted by Marcu

Here’s hoping it doesn’t. You may want to google who owned that deli.

I see. I don't hold the guy accountable for his son's actions, necessarily (in the sense that I never want him to have a life). The reports of calls about domestic violence do not sound OK to me, though.