PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[TonyTone]

I am confused why they would want to build it in an already busy part of the city that will become busier with the cap and expected improvements.

Why havent they thought of building it by the piers and extend the land a bit, plenty of space and empty roadway by the riverfront.

But in all reality they should spend the money for a new arena on improvements to the sports complex, new businesses, some apt buildings, parks, make it an actual walkable place instead of the 40 acres of parking lots and treeless land.

[towerpower123]

Not sure what this crane is. It's somewhere in Chinatown or near the Race-Vine subway station. Or it could be closer to the Independence Mall.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=...41553139240504

[allovertown]

This is literally the only thing ever discussed on this forum that I have any type of info on, so figured I'd chime in just to say what I've been saying for a few years now regarding the sixers arena.

-They are incredibly serious about this and have been so basically since they purchased the team. Owning your own arena allows you to make so much more money and that's all these people care about.

- This will not go in North Philly or the stadium complex or anywhere other than somewhere in center city. The wells fargo center always has had a very full calendar and while certain events will always make more sense in the sports complex surrounded by parking lots (think stuff that pulls mostly from the suburbs like Disney on ice,) they feel like they can steal away most concerts that book at the wells fargo by having a more exciting downtown location. North Philly or the stadium complex doesn't give them this advantage.

- penns landing is not necessarily their first choice, but rather it was the location where they could attempt to extract the most public funding for the starting point of these negotiations

- my understanding is that they're building an arena regardless of the amount of public funding they receive but they will try to extract as much as possible.

I'll also say I'd agree with most here that penn's landing is a terrible idea and the city should hold firm and not give them any funding regardless of where they locate.

[eixample]

The problem with building an arena in center city is not the arena building itself but the parking that comes with it. You are going to need a few thousand car parking spots to make it work. Even at 30th Street where there is lots of transit you are still going to have to plan for say half of people to arrive by car I would guess. Commuter lots could double up as game lots, but not parking associated with residential buildings as the residences will need to park there at night.

Penn's Landing has little existing commuter parking and I assume 30th Street has some but would need a lot more. So it seems no matter where it would go, you'd have to expect lots of surface lots and garages to follow -- and to prevent development on those sites for decades to come. So we would have to say goodbye to all those beautiful drawings of Penn's Landing condo buildings along the river and the new neighborhood built on a platform over the rail tracks at 30th Street. Instead expect a neighborhood like the one around the Convention Center with one large, usually vacant building surrounded by a few blocks of parking lots/garages and dead street life.

[mcgrath618]

All I’m going to say on this matter: it has been proven time and again that building more parking encourages more driving. And vice versa.

If the stadium has superb public transit access, people will take the train. It’s that simple.

30th Street and 8th and Market work for these two reasons; both have excellent connections to the subway in addition to excellent connections to Regional Rail.

If MSG can survive with some underground parking, but draw most of its crowd through transit, it’s not impossible to do here. It just has to be built in the right place.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Larry King

No it wouldn't. People would be able to walk to the games, take the el or take the ferry from Jersey.

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Lmao

Originally Posted by Larry King

Hey people do the reverse to see concerts in Camden

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

They take the train. Not the ferry.

This is a weird exchange. The ferry is great.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

All I’m going to say on this matter: it has been proven time and again that building more parking encourages more driving. And vice versa.

If the stadium has superb public transit access, people will take the train. It’s that simple.

30th Street and 8th and Market work for these two reasons; both have excellent connections to the subway in addition to excellent connections to Regional Rail.

If MSG can survive with some underground parking, but draw most of its crowd through transit, it’s not impossible to do here. It just has to be built in the right place.

Expecting suburban people to take regional rail to a Sixers game in similar proportions to the numbers of Knicks or Rangers fans who take LIRR or NJT to MSG seems a little too optimistic to me. Suburban people are used to taking transit much more in NYC so there is that mental hurdle and more importantly the regional rail off-peak frequencies are terrible right now. Also, the costs of regional rail tickets can really add up compared to the price of a parking garage. We could make regional rail much better (greater frequency and lower fares) by building all high-level platforms, getting new train cars, improving fare collection, and getting rid of conductors in order to convert to a European RER/S-Bahn type rail system, but there is virtually no discussion of doing so. I'd love to see for that to happen though.

[Nephi215]

Originally Posted by Nova08

The Sixers have bungled everything in the past 5-10 years. Terrible draft picks, a number one pick that was a head case, bad trades, prima donna young players with poor veteran talent around them to put them in their place (aside from the likes of JJ Redick). The last thing we need is a center city arena for the next time they have to give away tickets to come close to filling it at 50% capacity.

Yup makes perfect sense considering the Sixers have led the NBA in attendance for the last 3 years averaging 20k+ a game. Although Brett Brown and Elton Brand have somewhat muddled things in the last 3 years, if the Sixers have Embiid, Simmons and hopefully finally a new coach that is actually able to be a great coach, the Sixers will be competitive on the court and a high attendance commodity for the near future. With that said, the Sixers should stay in the wells Fargo based off of the logistical pre-existing multitude of transit accessibility options and the sports complex tradition.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by Nova08

The Sixers have bungled everything in the past 5-10 years. Terrible draft picks, a number one pick that was a head case, bad trades, prima donna young players with poor veteran talent around them to put them in their place (aside from the likes of JJ Redick). The last thing we need is a center city arena for the next time they have to give away tickets to come close to filling it at 50% capacity.

You literally just said they need older white guys to put the young black players in their place, lol.

[hammersklavier]

W/r/t the Sixers Penns Landing arena proposal:

W. T. A. F.

From the DWRC's perspective, it is almost certainly objectively a bad proposal. With all the money they're investing into that new waterfront park, they want some condo towers there, not a massive, hulking arena. Plus, while there are some examples of arenas being used to catalyze neighboring developments -- see the Staples Center in LA, for example -- the Penn's Landing site only really has space for ... the arena. And nothing else.

The way the DWRC responded to the proposal -- "Just put it in the pile with the other ones" -- also communicates to me they're not really taking it all that seriously. If the Sixers really want a dedicated arena so desperately, they'd be better off taking the block formerly occupied by the Vet and developing on that (which also allows for Staples Center-esque ancillary development at Pattison AT&T NRG I Give Up station).

[iamrobk]

Just as a thought experiment, if the Sixers are insistent on building a new arena in Center City, where are the realistic locations they could put it? Honestly, I'm not even sure where else they could build something. I guess they could squeeze something in at 8th and Market or find somewhere along the eastern part of Callowhill, but that's really it. IMO, I think we should look at this as a positive sign about Center City generally. I feel like just 10 years ago we would have been able to come up with numerous locations for them to realistically build an arena in Center City; now, not so much.

Note that I'm not saying this as a defense or justification for them looking at Penn's Landing, as I still think that's a bad idea.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

W/r/t the Sixers Penns Landing arena proposal:

W. T. A. F.

From the DWRC's perspective, it is almost certainly objectively a bad proposal. With all the money they're investing into that new waterfront park, they want some condo towers there, not a massive, hulking arena. Plus, while there are some examples of arenas being used to catalyze neighboring developments -- see the Staples Center in LA, for example -- the Penn's Landing site only really has space for ... the arena. And nothing else.

The way the DWRC responded to the proposal -- "Just put it in the pile with the other ones" -- also communicates to me they're not really taking it all that seriously. If the Sixers really want a dedicated arena so desperately, they'd be better off taking the block formerly occupied by the Vet and developing on that (which also allows for Staples Center-esque ancillary development at Pattison AT&T NRG I Give Up station).

I've said it before. I'll say it again. There is absolutely zero interest in the stadium complex from ownership. A major part of their desire to do this is not just profiting from the sixers having their own arenna, but drawing in concerts, events, conventions, etc.

They're looking to differentiate themselves from wells fargo, they want to be in center city. Being in the same complex as wells fargo, which was just renovated, fighting for the same events, is not the scenario they're looking for.

Please note I am only relaying information, I personally think a Penns landing arena is a terrible idea and I am skeptical of a downtown arena in general. And while I think there are possible ways it could be done right in a way that would be good for the city, I am pessimistic that the profit hungry ghouls that run the sixers would be the ones to pull that off.

So yea, if a new sixers arena is going to be built, it will be somewhere in center city, or it won't be built at all. North Philly, and especially the sports complex, are off the table.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

W/r/t the Sixers Penns Landing arena proposal:

W. T. A. F.

From the DWRC's perspective, it is almost certainly objectively a bad proposal. With all the money they're investing into that new waterfront park, they want some condo towers there, not a massive, hulking arena. Plus, while there are some examples of arenas being used to catalyze neighboring developments -- see the Staples Center in LA, for example -- the Penn's Landing site only really has space for ... the arena. And nothing else.

The way the DWRC responded to the proposal -- "Just put it in the pile with the other ones" -- also communicates to me they're not really taking it all that seriously. If the Sixers really want a dedicated arena so desperately, they'd be better off taking the block formerly occupied by the Vet and developing on that (which also allows for Staples Center-esque ancillary development at Pattison AT&T NRG I Give Up station).

As far as I'm aware, the Sixers did not participate in the RFP process, and are just trying to strong-arm themselves in because they think they can because they're the Sixers. You're exactly correct. Even considering the proposal is a massive FU to all the people who actually spent a lot of time and effort to participate in the RFP process. This is dead in the water and I don't even know why the Sixers would even think this is remotely a good location for them.

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Hell no. That building is a treasure.

I think you could (and should) preserve the facade. Would be interesting to have that on a stadium.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I think you could (and should) preserve the facade. Would be interesting to have that on a stadium.

I don't think it's practical or even feasible to save the facade of a huge 12-story building.


(source: https://42floors.com/us/pa/philadelphia/833-chestnut-st)

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I don't think it's practical or even feasible to save the facade of a huge 12-story building.

Sorry, I meant the lower levels. That's where the real beauty is. Above the columns, the upper floors are unremarkable, and the backside is hideous. Don't get me wrong it's a very nice building, but I think 8th and Market is really the only place in Center City that really has the transit access and hotels to make a Center City stadium feasible with minimal impact on existing structures (except this one building) since it's mostly an empty lot. From there you can access the MFL, PATCO, and regional rail - and the airport connection is a huge plus too. BSL and the trolleys are only a few blocks away too. I understand it would be a major logistical challenge (and it's possible there are site constraints I'm not privy to that make it impossible), but assuming it's possible to squeeze a stadium in and you could preserve the lower facade, then I think this location truly makes the most sense if the Sixers must have a Center City arena. Hell, maybe you could save some of the upper floors along 9th or Chestnut and convert it into a hotel built into the stadium for teams/performers - but I'm no engineer. As far as I can tell though, the entire 8th and Market block is about the same size (maybe a tad smaller) as the site at Penn's Landing. But unlike Penn's landing, you could actually dig down a bit here and put the court below street level, which would allow you to do it in less space.

Ultimately my preference is that the Sixers stay put. But if they have to move...

Edit: Here is WFC to scale, rotated to align with the street grid overlaid at 8th and Market. You'd have to redesign the peripheral areas, but the arena portion itself fits.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I've said it before. I'll say it again. There is absolutely zero interest in the stadium complex from ownership. A major part of their desire to do this is not just profiting from the sixers having their own arenna, but drawing in concerts, events, conventions, etc.

They're looking to differentiate themselves from wells fargo, they want to be in center city. Being in the same complex as wells fargo, which was just renovated, fighting for the same events, is not the scenario they're looking for.

Please note I am only relaying information, I personally think a Penns landing arena is a terrible idea and I am skeptical of a downtown arena in general. And while I think there are possible ways it could be done right in a way that would be good for the city, I am pessimistic that the profit hungry ghouls that run the sixers would be the ones to pull that off.

So yea, if a new sixers arena is going to be built, it will be somewhere in center city, or it won't be built at all. North Philly, and especially the sports complex, are off the table.

Thanks for your insight. Better to opine about what might happen within the owners' desired parameters rather than what never will happen outside of them.

Penn's Landing makes ZERO sense. As far as CC goes, Eighth and Market would be perfect, given existing amenities, PATCO, MFL, and Broad Spur connections (and a short walk from Market East). I could even see demolishing the Roundhouse and putting "Franklin Square Garden" between Race and Arch along 8th (currently a series of parking lots but for a small part used by the Federal Reserve). It might spur more interesting development in that dead area. I don't see any "Ave. of the Arts" area option that would work. With UC becoming an extension of CC (and the center of gravity shifting West), putting it around 30th Street (or maybe W. Market near PECO) seems like the only other option within the expressed parameters.

I don't get the "suburban types" comment by another poster. As a "suburban type" and Eagles season ticket holder, I've taken the subway for years (even if I had to drive and park further up on S. Broad to do it). Nobody likes traffic. I believe that South Jersey drives most of it at the current complex, given the proximity to the WW bridge. I'm sure they'd do PATCO park and ride if they could.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I could even see demolishing the Roundhouse

You guys are on a roll. Any other great Center City buildings you want to tear down?

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I've said it before. I'll say it again. There is absolutely zero interest in the stadium complex from ownership. A major part of their desire to do this is not just profiting from the sixers having their own arenna, but drawing in concerts, events, conventions, etc.

They're looking to differentiate themselves from wells fargo, they want to be in center city. Being in the same complex as wells fargo, which was just renovated, fighting for the same events, is not the scenario they're looking for.

Please note I am only relaying information, I personally think a Penns landing arena is a terrible idea and I am skeptical of a downtown arena in general. And while I think there are possible ways it could be done right in a way that would be good for the city, I am pessimistic that the profit hungry ghouls that run the sixers would be the ones to pull that off.

So yea, if a new sixers arena is going to be built, it will be somewhere in center city, or it won't be built at all. North Philly, and especially the sports complex, are off the table.

I agree the Sixers want their own stadium, and I'm glad to hear they don't want it in a sea of parking lots. When it comes to staying in south Philly if they had a good working concept of a new stadium in their pocket, that included having the City/State more or less on board, then they could bargain with Comcast for a new lease, one that is better suited to their desires, and maybe decide to stay put. But without being able to build their own new home then Comcast completely controls the lease process. So besides what the Sixers would like in a perfect world, the discussion about a new stadium boils down to 2 factors-----public money, and who has the position of strength in the contest, Battle of the Billionaires. I hope the City doesn't allow themselves to be used as a pawns. If a certain location makes sense and theres a reason and a defined need for public money, like improvement to area transit, then the City should see themselves as a equal player, not on the second tier. The City doesn't care if the Sixers stay in south Philly for another 25 years.

Could The Sixers bring out the "we're going to move to St. Louis (or X marks the spot)" card and have people believe them? Would the NBA even allow that?

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Justin7

You guys are on a roll. Any other great Center City buildings you want to tear down?

The roundhouse is cool in a way but is so anti-urban that it is practically beyond redemption IMO. Maybe if you tore down the walls, activated the lower floors and tried to stretch it to the sidewalk, something could work I suppose.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Justin7

You guys are on a roll. Any other great Center City buildings you want to tear down?

What about City Hall, it's old, and in a good location! If they started today maybe the site could be clean by 2030. Just think of the work that would create for the unions. A nice new clean, sharp building, built with a new home for Billy P on top.