DENVER | Transportation Thread

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Honestly, this is brilliant. Why not open a brand new airport southeast of Castle Rock to serve the southern metro and Colorado Springs? This will take pressure off the Springs airport while they upgrade it... or close it and build something between CS and Pueblo to serve both metros. Then connect all of them with the Front Range rail project. I'm sure some engineers can be convinced to put out a study about how we're losing millions of dollars in productivity if we don't do this and the politicians will be dumb enough to believe them.

I think that my friend's idea was a bit more radical and along the lines of keeping one airport permanently closed at all times so as to avoid EVER having to do construction while keeping an airport in operation. He noted that most of us who have ever traveled have had to endure the headache of traveling through a construction zone. Recent examples include La Guardia, LAX, Washington Dulles, etc. I think we were actually discussing the Berlin Brandenburg disaster when this came up.

It might be a hard sell though to suggest that thousands of acres of land for an airport deliberately sit vacant at all times, even if it is an inevitability that they will someday be rebuilt and reused. Your idea of staging airports midway between the cities on the Front Range is an interesting alternative! That way when one needs to undergo construction, some of the capacity could simply be shifted to the others so that things like taxiing delays don't muck up the whole system quite as badly. Connecting them all with Front Range Rail would also mean people could still access their flights even if their airport of choice is currently running at under-capacity.

[mhays]

It's one mile from the main terminal to the farthest current one. I bet a walkway would be popular, particularly with moving sidewalks.

Much of that would be people going a single terminal over, or maybe two. You don't design these things just for the people going the full distance, any more than you would for a freeway.

The point about two taxi lanes makes sense, from my non-technical perspective. It seems fairly straighforward to do a cut and cover (with some challenges related to "FOD" control, i.e. pebbles and paper clips that can damage airplanes).

[bobg]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Aren't the taxiways between concourses wide enough to let two jumbo jets pass each other without clipping wings? Feels like we could close the southern halves of the tunnels between the concourses so that at least 1 plane can pass at a time, then after completing those, we would do the northern halves, limiting the impact.

It would be interesting to model what would limit the daily impact most versus how much it would add to the duration of construction. Doing the full tunnel between A/B while leaving the corridor between B/C open to bi-directional travel then do B/C after you're done with A/B, doing it partially on one corridor, partially on both simultaneously, and doing it all at once.

Any way you do it it's going to create conflicts at a busy airport with more planes needing to use the same space at the same time. DIA is massive so you taxi a good distance but it's massive because it was designed to minimize those types of conflicts. So it will be kind of the worst of both worlds for a bit.

[mishko27]

DEN creates over $33 billion of economic impact in CO, we need to stop pretending like a massive investment into DEN would be somehow prohibitive. Whatever needs to be done, needs to be done. That's that. And the money needs to be found.

[TakeFive]

Welcome to the Denver Transportation thread

Originally Posted by N830MH

Isn’t Denver airport getting more extremely overcrowded?? They wait to go through at security. That’s too much!! Too many passengers!! We will avoid it. I won’t visit Denver. I think they need more security checkpoints. That way they will reduce wait time. Airport is growing!! Can’t they do something?? Build the walkway tunnels and not go into the trams. This is better work.

N830MH is a huge fan of aviation (light rail too).

I happen to drop off and pickup a friend recently from Sky Harbor. Lots of changes in progress there as well.

DIA/Den is in a multi-year, multi-phase expansion.

First priority was adding an additional 39 gates; that is now completed. That along with other concourse updates currently under way will cost ~$2.1 billion.

DIA is also in process of significant improvements to the terminal. To your points, all check-in and security will eventually be moving up to Level 6. DIA will be acquiring the latest generation of whiz-bang tech (baggage) inspection equipment. Once all this is completed DIA will be at the top for safety, security and efficiency. 2024 will see the first phase of the move to Level 6.

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

There's been a lot of talk on some aviation forums about what to do about DIA.

I was hoping you might still 'be out there.' Always enjoy your knowledge and insight.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Welcome to the Denver Transportation thread


DIA is also in process of significant improvements to the terminal. To your points, all check-in and security will eventually be moving up to Level 6. DIA will be acquiring the latest generation of whiz-bang tech (baggage) inspection equipment. Once all this is completed DIA will be at the top for safety, security and efficiency. 2024 will see the first phase of the move to Level 6.

Wasn't there talk of possibly nixing that part of the project?

[TakeFive]

It's confusing, even to me

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Wasn't there talk of possibly nixing that part of the project?

AFAIK, they scaled back on the Great Hall improvements but moving security is a critical function. Although... moving all check-in/security to Level 6 looks like a two-phase plan where the 1st phase, actually referred to as Phase 2 will complete in 2024 while the last phase is as yet unfunded and could be left out I suppose.

Here's DIA's website which speaks to all this.

The Great Hall project consists of two phases with a third phase currently under consideration. The first two phases will be completed within the original $770 million budget. The project strictly focuses on building a new ticketing/check-in space for some of our airlines as well as a new security checkpoint.

Reading the tea leaves

Now that I think about it and DIA doesn't belabor the whole P3 fiasco but I'd guess that cost a lot of money, primarily the time-value of money meaning the ever escalating costs.

Chances are, phase 2, which will move a portion (half?) of security/check-in up to the 6th Level will likely operate for a period of time - leaving the other half of check-in where it is.

I know that one of the completed pieces was the infrastructure needed for baggage handling from level 6.

[TakeFive]

Okay, here, have your own ball; now, take your ball and leave us alone

Not only interesting but rather hilarious.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Now that I think about it and DIA doesn't belabor the whole P3 fiasco but I'd guess that cost a lot of money, primarily the time-value of money meaning the ever escalating costs.

It's not like DIA ever had enough money to build the entire planned scope. They didn't.

It's Denver. Denver builds to budget. And the budget is never as large as the dream.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

It's not like DIA ever had enough money to build the entire planned scope. They didn't.

It's Denver. Denver builds to budget. And the budget is never as large as the dream.

Like the Caltrava bridge and hotel....

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Like the Caltrava bridge and hotel....

I'm totally content with the present hotel but I'll admit to having what turned out to be a short term affair with that bridge.

Turns out they had a ribbon cutting ceremony today. I couldn't say for sure but it's possible the ribbon was AWOL. In any case:

Phase 2 of the project has already kicked off. That will add a new security checkpoint on level 6 of the terminal and should be done by 2024.

Then it’s on to a proposed Phase 3 which will possibly be moving all security to level 6. Washington says the planning for that phase has just begun.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Welcome to the Denver Transportation thread

N830MH is a huge fan of aviation (light rail too).

I happen to drop off and pickup a friend recently from Sky Harbor. Lots of changes in progress there as well.

DIA/Den is in a multi-year, multi-phase expansion.

First priority was adding an additional 39 gates; that is now completed. That along with other concourse updates currently under way will cost ~$2.1 billion.

DIA is also in process of significant improvements to the terminal. To your points, all check-in and security will eventually be moving up to Level 6. DIA will be acquiring the latest generation of whiz-bang tech (baggage) inspection equipment. Once all this is completed DIA will be at the top for safety, security and efficiency. 2024 will see the first phase of the move to Level 6.

Thanks buddy! I really appreciate it! I knows airport very well. I am very knowledgeable about aviation. I am very valuable. I still post on FlyerTalk and Facebook, too. I am biggest Facebook fans. I knows all airports very well. I no longer work at 4am. When I got a jobs at HMS Host in 2005. I didn’t like it but I am not like work at 4am. It’s too hard for me. I left HMS Host in August 2008.

[CharlesCO]

Nice writeup from Denverite on the L extension to 38th and Blake that RTD seems to have forgotten about. No solutions really though, because RTD has forgotten about it and keeps saying they have no money for it.

https://denverite.com/2021/12/15/yea...Tqctj1tKwhxtS0

Years after voters said the A Line and the L Line should connect, RTD has yet to deliver its FasTracks promise

...

Yet for years, the project was piddling forward.

RTD conducted an environmental evaluation that wrapped in 2010. In 2013 and 2014, there were more studies on how the project would work, and by 2015, basic engineering was finished.

Then things stalled.

In 2019, RTD estimated it would need to raise $140 million in capital costs for the extension. Since the pandemic, inflation and rising construction costs has likely driven that number higher, but the project has been kicked down the road so far that there isn’t a current estimate.

“The issue is we don’t have funding secured to complete that extension,” said Tonilas. “And so that is one of the few remaining FasTracks projects that we currently don’t have funding to complete.”

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

If we're doing stupid, let's just propose Munsk's The Boring Company to drop a dual bore tunnel between the terminal and all the concourses. No walkway, just some asphalt and let people walk the mile to Concourse C.

The Boring Company claims they can accommodate projects such as this for far less cost than traditional companies and methods. They could bore tunnels under the existing trains. Mirror the entire train and tunnel system, directly under the existing tunnels/stations. Have all outbound (from terminal) people use the current level and train and all inbound (to terminal) use the new lower level train. This doubles the capacity, allowing for both to be expanded up to twice as long as the existing line. The new lower level train could also be designed to have longer stations and longer trains, further expanding the capacity.

[TakeFive]

Not a surprise

DIA’s airport renovation will now take longer and cost more
Dec. 16, 2021 By Rebecca Spiess/Denverite

Unbelievably Sad



RTD demolishes benches outside Union Station, will replace them with planters
Dec. 15, 2021 By Kyle Harris/Denverite

Plants will replace the benches, RTD spokesperson Pauletta Tonilas said in a statement. RTD has been working on redesigning the plaza for some time, she said.

“After months of planning, the stone pedestals adjacent to the Wewatta and Chestnut pavilions are being removed and replaced with pavers and landscaping to further enhance pedestrian circulation and improve the greenspace of the greater Denver Union Station complex,” she said.

This may even look much nicer than the benches.

I do recall while walking the neighborhood, I did appreciate the chance to sit down for a time. Oh well.

[wong21fr]

Denver City Council approves airport's $1.1B funding request
Denver Business Journal

The Denver City Councilon Monday night voted to approve Denver International Airport’s request for an additional $1.1 billion, which will be used to complete the airport’s terminal renovation by 2028.Following a vote with 10 out of 13 city council members approving DIA's ask, the airport now has what it needs to enter what it says will be a third and final phase of its terminal renovation.
Councilmembers Candi CdeBaca, Amanda Sawyer and Paul Kashmann were the dissenting votes. Sawyer said that there was no doubt of DIA's importance to the community — it is Colorado's largest economic engine — but said she felt the process was rushed......
...... With this third phase, which DIA is calling its completion stage, the airport plans to finish the relocation of the security checkpoint on Level 6. In the original plans for the project, both checkpoints were supposed to be on Level 6, but for cost constraints, only one is being moved during the project’s second phase, which is ongoing.
Phase 3 would complete that necessary change. The phase also includes building out the south end of the airport, including additional check-in facilities, temporary check-in locations for displaced airlines and restoration of Level 5. Construction is expected to go through 2028.
Also included in the budget is a $40 million Center of Excellence and Equity in Aviation, which would serve to engage lower-income community members, youth and others in the aviation industry, in the hopes of building the aviation workforce. The Center of Excellence would serve as a focal point for aviation knowledge and research and would be the first of its kind in the U.S.

Great diagram showing just how the Great Hall will ultimately look from the Denver Post:

[DenvertoLA]

whatever they build I guarantee you the response will be " that's it? this is what took 20 years to build??"

[texboy]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

whatever they build I guarantee you the response will be " that's it? this is what took 20 years to build??"

The original timeline was 4 years... so yes... you are correct. It'll look good, but not 10 years good, which is literally how long it will take from start to finish. The whole thing was supposed to be opening this year. You can thank Denver City Council and Kim Day for the original mess of a contract and the eventual slow down of the project... and Kim Day specifically for the nasty looking floors around Mod 2's baggage carousels. Not a fan of the current DEN CEO (full on political hire as he has zero experience managing airports and shaky dealings/past) but at least he's not going to be meddling in design details as Day did.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by texboy

The original timeline was 4 years... so yes... you are correct. It'll look good, but not 10 years good, which is literally how long it will take from start to finish. The whole thing was supposed to be opening this year. You can thank Denver City Council and Kim Day for the original mess of a contract and the eventual slow down of the project... and Kim Day specifically for the nasty looking floors around Mod 2's baggage carousels. Not a fan of the current DEN CEO (full on political hire as he has zero experience managing airports and shaky dealings/past) but at least he's not going to be meddling in design details as Day did.

What's wrong with the sparkle tiles?

[texboy]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

What's wrong with the sparkle tiles?

Haha... ooooh no... just take a walk by the carousels. Its atrocious. Literally you have the sparkly tiles next to a flat, dingy white floor that was poured early on in the original contract. Its terrible.