Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If someone gets accepted by the Republic of Quebec, they are only accepted by Quebec. Their admission is only valid for Quebec territory.

If they want to move to Canada(-sans-Québec), then they need to go through Canada's admissions process which would be that of another country and completely separate.

This is quite different from today's situation, where admission in Quebec includes the wide-open possibility of moving to any other part of Canada anytime you want.

So yes, more of the immigrants admitted to Quebec would very likely stay in Quebec, if only because there would be an additional process they'd have to start over in order to move to "Canada".

More like many wouldn't move to Quebec in the first place, and queue up for Canada instead if the back door no longer goes anywhere. With Quebec's investor immigrant program, 90% immediately decamped to Vancouver/Toronto after getting status. Quebec has never had a year of net positive interprovincial migration since statscan started tracking it

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

More like many wouldn't move to Quebec in the first place, and queue up for Canada instead if the back door no longer goes anywhere. With Quebec's investor immigrant program, 90% immediately decamped to Vancouver/Toronto after getting status. Quebec has never had a year of net positive interprovincial migration since statscan started tracking it

Coles Notes version: I hate you guys, and so does/will everybody else!

[New Brisavoine]

^^I admire your patience.

[dleung]

Very Trumpian "fake news!" of you. The stats lie!

[MolsonExport]

There are silly biases in the popular press that people (including many here on SSP) love to latch onto, because there is nothing like a manufactured stereotype to reinforce one's preconceived notions. For example, in some anglo media, the notion that Quebec/France are incapable of creating dynamic modern economies (without massive state interventions). Bollocks. For example, in some franco media, the notion that the ROC has "no culture" or is just "America Lite". Also bollocks.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

I think it would take more than a fifty percent raise to get someone from the boonies in English Canada to move to Montreal, especially if they have to learn how to speak French.

I'm pretty sure you were just baiting the obvious question: did it take at least a 50% raise to take you out of Flyover Country and into the Québec part of the Corridor?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Doesn't that reinforce the case for independence? Within Canada, Québec can never hope to retain its immigrants, they will always be tempted to move to Toronto or Alberta. If Québec was an independent country, immigrants would have nowhere else to go, and would be forced to stay in Québec, just as immigrants in Norway have to stay in Norway and cannot move to London.

The issue is that the current government in power in Quebec doesn't want to increase the number of immigrants. It has the right to think and act that way as it was democratically elected but it and Quebecers have to live with the economic consequences. I don't really discuss independence for Quebec anymore because real independence isn't even on the radar. I have yet to see a sovereignty proposal with hard borders, separate currencies and so many other things that most sovereign countries have. Quebec should have the right to get immigrants who speak French or are willing to learn and speak French as it only makes sense.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The issue is that the current government in power in Quebec doesn't want to increase the number of immigrants.

I think they don't want to increase the number of immigrants "within the context of Canada" where they are afraid of being drowned in a sea of Anglophone immigrants. If they were an independent country, however, all bets would be off. They might very well be in favor of lots of immigration, like many small Northern European countries which have no problem with very high immigration.

[harls]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm pretty sure you were just baiting the obvious question: did it take at least a 50% raise to take you out of Flyover Country and into the Québec part of the Corridor?

Hell no, I came for a woman.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think they don't want to increase the number of immigrants "within the context of Canada" where they are afraid of being drowned in a sea of Anglophone immigrants. If they were an independent country, however, all bets would be off. They might very well be in favor of lots of immigration, like many small Northern European countries which have no problem with very high immigration.

Not sure about that scenario, given the problems they apparently have integrating the immigrants they're now receiving.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not sure about that scenario, given the problems they apparently have integrating the immigrants they're now receiving.

I don't think it's possible to draw any definitive conclusions about how things would go in an independent Quebec. Right now it can be argued that the situation is made much more complicated by the presence of two competing socio-cultural integration models (including different languages for interacting with one's new society).

At the very least, this is something an independent Quebec would not have to deal with.

In all likelihood the Republic of Quebec would be no better and no worse than any other host society in the western world. With of course some of its own challenges, its successes and failures.

This latter point is something that many ROCers often miss about Quebec. Quebecers just think they are or would be no better and no worse than anybody else.

Some ROCers seem obsessed with the idea that things are always going to be significantly worse.

But what happens if it even ends up being a bit better?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think it's possible to draw any definitive conclusions about how things would go in an independent Quebec. Right now it can be argued that the situation is made much more complicated by the presence of two competing socio-cultural integration models (including different languages for interacting with one's new society).

At the very least, this is something an independent Quebec would not have to deal with.

In all likelihood the Republic of Quebec would be no better and no worse than any other host society in the western world. With of course some of its own challenges, its successes and failures.

This latter point is something that many ROCers often miss about Quebec. Quebecers just think they are or would be no better and no worse than anybody else.

Some ROCers seem obsessed with the idea that things are always going to be significantly worse.

But what happens if it even ends up being a bit better?

That's my view - all the assumptions people make are just guesses. What would actually play out, up to and including the actual nature of "independence" remains unknown.

[MolsonExport]

Isn't New Brisavoine a citizen of France? Why is he pushing the Quebec independence scenario so hard? It is one thing for a Canadian/Quebecois to advocate for Quebec separatism, but it is another for a foreigner to do so. This is my country, thanks, and I don't want to see it splinter. I am still waiting for his views on separatist movements within France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Isn't New Brisavoine a citizen of France? Why is he pushing the Quebec independence scenario so hard? It is one thing for a Canadian/Quebecois to advocate for Quebec separatism, but it is another for a foreigner to do so. This is my country, thanks, and I don't want to see it splinter. I am still waiting for his views on separatist movements within France.

For the same reason that most Canadians are supportive of women in Iran who want to be free of hijabs, want to see Ukraine kick the Russians out of their country, and cheered the defeat of Donald Trump in the 2020 US elections.

People can take an interest in the affairs of other countries and are even allowed to comment on them.

But sure it would be interesting to know what his views on Corsica or the Basque country are.

That said, keep in mind that plenty of Canadians are extremely inconsistent and even hypocritical in how they view any issue relating to Quebec, versus issues involving other cultures, nations or countries.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

To fill a worker shortage or an inferiority complex facing other G7 counties (particularly the United States) ?

Probably a bit of both? I mean, it's a valid concern and Canada has never been particularly productive economically, so a worker shortage just amplifies that issue.

A larger Canada might have some more pull especially when negotiating with the US. I doubt that this important piece of domestic policy boils down to only an inferiority complex though.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Isn't New Brisavoine a citizen of France? Why is he pushing the Quebec independence scenario so hard? It is one thing for a Canadian/Quebecois to advocate for Quebec separatism, but it is another for a foreigner to do so. This is my country, thanks, and I don't want to see it splinter. I am still waiting for his views on separatist movements within France.

I mean, we don't know much about New Brisavoine. Maybe they have a bunch of friends in Quebec who inform their interests? It's all good if they advocate for Quebec separatism - at the end of the day they don't get a vote for or against, the same way I don't get a vote for Scottish independence (for which I would vote yes!).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I mean, we don't know much about New Brisavoine. Maybe they have a bunch of friends in Quebec who inform their interests? It's all good if they advocate for Quebec separatism - at the end of the day they don't get a vote for or against, the same way I don't get a vote for Scottish independence (for which I would vote yes!).

In order to remain consistent, shouldn't that mean that you must support Quebec independence as well?

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In order to remain consistent, shouldn't that mean that you must support Quebec independence as well?

I support robust political debate. I think that the independence movement in-and-of itself is a healthy thing for our society, regardless of whether I agree with it. Sometimes I feel that there's a certain inevitability to it even if it doesn't take the form of an outright new country. You could argue that many of the provinces are beginning to function more and more like countries and that Quebec was just ahead of its time. It seems to me that this is the direction that Canada is moving in - a cooperative of pseudo-countries.

But yeah, if a people at large is unhappy, it should have the right to self-determination. Even Canada understands this to a greater degree than the UK or Spain as the latter two have taken various direct steps to block the self-determination of Scotland and Catalonia.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In order to remain consistent, shouldn't that mean that you must support Quebec independence as well?

I'm the opposite, I would never dare to help break up someone else's country (Scotland and Catalonia), while when it's my own, it feels perfectly normal that I'm getting a say.

However, I am consistent: if a majority of Scots and Catalans support independence -- without me encouraging them to -- then my favorite scenario is for their wish to be granted. By the exact same logic, I am in favor of Ireland existing as a separate entity (for ~100 years now).

I'd use the same logic for the Bretons, even though it would feel reeeeally strange to have one tip of the Hexagon cut off. But if they really want to go, they should be able to.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I support robust political debate. I think that the independence movement in-and-of itself is a healthy thing for our society, regardless of whether I agree with it.

Great point which people like Acajack, ToxiK and myself are no doubt fully aware of, but I'd point out that it needs way more teeth than it's got now, in order to be effective in Ottawa as a tool for Quebec even under federalist provincial govts.

For a recent example: normally, when even the Quebec Liberals (!) demand the retractation of an outrageous anti-Quebec move by JT, the Federal Liberals would typically be scared into obeying, like clockwork.