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  #4061  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 7:50 PM
edale edale is offline
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^ Do we need to spam this thread with individual projects in GL cities? Seems like those would be better placed in city specific development threads.
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  #4062  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 7:55 PM
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It's a gigantic, transformational project. I added spoiler tags so you don't have to see it
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  #4063  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 9:56 PM
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Speaking of spamming the thread with individual projects, how about a little update on the 4 major towers currently U/C in the 4 biggest US great lakes cities?


And I ain't using no stinking spoiler tags


Chicago - 1000M - 805' (nearly topped out, it will become chicago's 20th tower over 800' tall)



source: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=2575





Detroit - Hudson Tower - 685' (will become detroit's 2nd tallest tower)


source: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=1270




Cleveland - Sherwin-Williams HQ - 616' (will become cleveland's 4th tallest tower)


source:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...&postcount=222



Milwaukee - The Couture - 537' (will become milwaukee's 3rd tallest tower)


Source: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...34188/page-177
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  #4064  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 11:49 PM
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Awesome to see these new Great Lake skyscrapers!
They will have a much bigger impact on the smaller downtowns of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Detroit than Chicago obviously.

Do you have any more info on square footage, residential units and mix of uses?
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  #4065  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 12:20 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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An interview with mayor-elect Olivia Chow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFiz8RJw-LY
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  #4066  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 12:41 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Brandon Johnson and Olivia Chow are similar ideologically.

A map of the runoff in Chicago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_C...y_precinct.svg
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  #4067  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 1:09 PM
Velvet_Highground Velvet_Highground is offline
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
the sw corner of monroe down to and around toledo is the shallowest end of lake erie, the shallowest great lake. its prone to swampy algae. the great black swamp history is around there after all. its not as desirable waterfront property as central or eastern lake erie. and there are also state waterfront parklands too because of this. another thing is unlike the rest of ohio’s bigger cities, toledo, to its credit, just didnt do sprawl, or until recently that is. i always admired that about toledo. big agri and farm culture is strong around nw ohio and i assume kept it at bay.
I think there’s a few interesting points to unpack across this discussion. First off regarding Lake Erie there was an excellent documentary done by PBS Toledo called The Erie Situation about the source of the blooms and why despite many small farmers taking active interest in water quality the situation has stayed much the same. I was lucky to find a local activist’s recording of the tv screen over the winter after months of trying, it made a lot of powerful people and industry look very bad.

The loss of the black swamp certainly effected the water quality of the western basin however as the wetlands estuary system of the western basin does play a role in filtering river water before it enters the shallow western basin. The 90’s saw a significant jump in water quality to Lake Erie as a whole pointing to a different cause to the recent algae blooms as opposed to the industrial nitrogen sourced blooms of the 60’s-70’s. The Erie Situation points the finger at consented animal feed lots and the stranglehold big agribusiness has over the Ohio State Government as the culprit in the Maumee Basin.

Several problems were noted as standing out as standing out in particular. First and foremost is the definition of what is a consented animal feed lot there is a clear cut off at say 2,000 head of cattle or 10,000 chicken. The number of inspectors is small and it’s easy to sell off a certain number of animals when an inspection is coming up to slide in under the limit where regulations come into play.

There has been explosive growth over the past decade or so in the number of these “small” and unregulated consented animal feed lots and all of these businesses produce a siloing effect of building up nitrogen in the ground. A ancillary business that makes the feed lot model especially profitable is selling off the liquid manure as fertilizer to local farmers. There is an overuse of manure as a fertilizer as well as a loss of loam in the soil due to the use of industrial fertilizers and pesticides increasing run off and reducing soil water retention.

To the credit of the small farm industry in general there has been a shift towards organic agriculture out of pocket and in the Maumee basin local farmers / activists are demonstrating the benefits of the 2-3 year hit in yields “detoxing” their soil from traditional fertilizers. The use of mixed solid manure as fertilizer as well as better farm practices have reduced the amount of nitrogen entering the Maumee on their part.

Not to cop out Michigan and Ontario are also contributors to the problem, SW Ontario in particular has very intensive agriculture and lacks for the most part coastal estuaries on Erie to act as filtration. Though the main River basin the Thames flows into St Clair causing blooms in the east and southern portions of the lake due to currents and the discharge point. The size, shape and quality of the former black swamp for agricultural production exacerbates the nitrogen build up in the shallow western basin.

As for the dimensions of Detroit sprawl the standard answer that downriver is less desirable and its job base has stagnated or shrunk is valid however it’s not universally applicable for the reason. South of the Romulus - Taylor - Wayne/Inkster - Southgate - Ecorse/River Rouge line downriver becomes more desirable. Grosse Ille has wealth while the cities and twp’s to the west of it are around the national median for household income some higher and with wealth like Rockwood with Flat Rock lower with an industrial base but the area is becoming more desirable, populated with standard of living rising.

As mentioned before is the strong anti-sprawl sentiment in surrounding more rural communities with clauses built into many characters like along the M-14 corridor near Ann Arbor. Huron Twp is the perfect example of the kind of model development that is acceptable in these communities. The southern A2 UA Saline to Belleville is similar though has experienced more growth due to the pressure to expand somewhere.

I think DTW is a limiting factor for growth directly south of it in Huron twp because of the style of growth that is encouraged by residents to make the area what they feel as more desirable. Perhaps as the Gordie Howe Bridge comes online and (high speed) passenger service between Detroit and Toronto is restored the Ypsilanti & Romulus area will see more commercial and industrial development changing the character of the Michigan Ave - 94 corridor.

Residential development in Monroe County in the area south of M-50 and east of US-23 follows the model of Huron Twp but to a lighter degree. There is residential development along the major roads but with more farmland. The new residential development is generally higher end but perhaps a bit more tasteful than rural North Oakland McMansion’s.

The near meltdown of the Fermi 1 prototype breeds reactor for weapons grade material has kept development away from the 75 - Telegraph corridor between the Wayne County line and Monroe with much of the coast either state park or the Detroit International Wildlife Refuge this area has several anti development pressures against it. While passenger rail between Detroit and Toledo may create growth in Monroe in the future the pattern of light development will likely continue just increasing in density.

There have been attempts to kickstart the sprawl machine in the 90’s and 2000’s by building I-73 along the 223 corridor from US-23 to Jackson completing the “I-69 outer ring”. However there was fierce opposition along with it being a speculative project it was finally abandoned in 2010 with roundabouts and an improved interchange being the result. I have Family in the Monroe - Dundee area they have a nice home they built themselves on a beautiful 2 acre oak forest lot on Secore Rd.

The other side of the Metro has development pressure that has been encouraging sprawl the “Lakes Area” of the Irish Hills geological formation comes close to NW Detroit. The area was a resort getaway in the inter-war period building a framework infrastructure that would facilitate sprawl after the inner 696-275 ring was completed. The Woodward Ave axis being developed in the inter-war period as well provided a strong infrastructure framework for dense sprawl along the edge of the lakes area with the hills, wetlands and lakes providing a natural increase to desirability to neighboring communities.

The arrangement of satellite cities with A2 and Flint being on the other side of the most desirable areas of wealthy development as well as Livingston County being a crossroads made Oakland a natural choice for sprawl. While Livingston has been one of the fastest growing counties in the state it’s in the exurban style with some caveats like the US-23 fwy & rail corridor allowing for future density in the Brighton area.

Macomb is a bit of a mixture it has St Clair coast and it’s far north has similar hilly terrain with small lakes but it is one of the industrial arms of Detroit. The 94-Gratiot corridor along with the Van Dyke - Mound industrial corridor extends down to Connor Ave and City Airport. Northern Macomb is in many ways great sprawl machine of the metro as the UA is developed uninterrupted in the clear, flatten & super wide lane road style. The Mound-Van Dyke industrial corridor has been generally a success similar to the Plymouth Rd corridor in Livonia but on a much greater scale. The Detroit Arsenal at 696 and Mound houses the US Army Ground Vehicle Systems Center and Tank and Automotive Command Center with the GM R&D Center in between the General Dynamics Land Services Center. Macomb has its own issues that could be a regional thread of its own however that I will skip.

The 75 corridor with the Tri or Quad Cities is a legacy resource extraction corridor as the Bay Area was the focus for the lumber industry into the early 20th century when the Great Lakes resource trade helped spin up the industry its know for. Michigan being a peninsula helps to isolate the Bay Area from through trade that in another part of the country would be a boost and tourism is just beginning to become a major industry on Lake Huron.

The state could do more to help the region but it has a full plate of issues that take strong, creative & visionary leadership to chip away at and swing the pendulum with the headwinds of the past 5 years. Reinvigorating the Michigan Ave - 94 corridor would go a long way to helping the state with its isolated geography tap into national growth a bit better. Although at the same time I was reading about how Wisconsin put the highest percentage of its Covid funds into small businesses and the success of isolated communities along the UP border retaining and expanding commercial institutions is something to note. Though it’s easier to save businesses when they are struggling then get new ones going after a recession.
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  #4068  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 7:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Awesome to see these new Great Lake skyscrapers!
They will have a much bigger impact on the smaller downtowns of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Detroit than Chicago obviously.
yes, the towers going up in detroit, cleveland and milwaukee will have MUCH greater individual impact than 1000M in chicago.

but it's also important to remember that 1000M is merely the coda to one of the biggest skyscraper building booms in chicago history, one that has added 10 new towers over 700' tall to the skyline over the past 6 years (taking the total tally of such towers in the skyline from 19 to 29, a 53% increase).

collectively, they make an impact, adding lots of new peaks to the skyline, particularly the 3 new towers to the south of the sears tower, which have really gone a long way to start rebalancing the skyline.





not pictured above because they're blocked by other buildings:

River Point - 732'
150 N Riverside - 724'
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 30, 2023 at 2:47 PM.
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  #4069  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 7:53 PM
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^ nice!
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  #4070  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 8:23 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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That Statler Hotel story from Buffalo is awesome, thanks for sharing Wigs
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  #4071  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 4:04 PM
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Wigs Wigs is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

but it's also important to remember that 1000M is merely the coda to one of the biggest skyscraper building booms in chicago history, one that has added 10 new towers over 700' tall to the skyline over the past 6 years (taking the total tally of such towers in the skyline from 19 to 29, a 53% increase).

collectively, they make an impact, adding lots of new peaks to the skyline, particularly the 3 new towers to the south of the sears tower, which have really gone a long way to start rebalancing the skyline.
I had no idea Chicago's recent skyscraper boom has made such an impact. Very cool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That Statler Hotel story from Buffalo is awesome, thanks for sharing Wigs
Thanks, lio. I'm glad someone appreciated it.

~850,000 sq ft is equivalent to a modern 40+ storey skyscraper but even better restoring a 100 year old gem that can shine brightly again, repurposed as a fully mixed use structure. Those 558 apartments should add 700+ residents to downtown and the structure could be buzzing with 1000+ people in the building at any given time with the combo of future residents, office workers, event functions.

Douglas Jemal and his team don't mess around. Buffalo will be his legacy.
Lio, Buffalo could be your next project city if the numbers make sense. You've tackled Quebec, Florida, and Vancouver. Why not Western NY

Video over 1yr ago so info is outdated
Video Link
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  #4072  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
I had no idea Chicago's recent skyscraper boom has made such an impact. Very cool!
It helps that the projects are spread across chicago's expansive "downtown".

For scale, the distance from NEMA on the left in the image above, over to One Chicago on the right, is 2 miles.

So while the Chicago skyline still hasn't gotten a new tallest for 50 years now, the outward expansion and ever-increasing densification of the skyline has been fun to watch nonetheless.
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  #4073  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 5:36 PM
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Wigs Wigs is offline
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2 miles/3.2km is definitely a big area. It's great to see the expansion/evolution of Chicago's skyline!
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  #4074  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 5:42 PM
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The expansion of the skyline into the south loop has been the most interesting part.

Pretty much all of the towers in the image below weren't there 2 decades ago.

It's like we got a whole brand new city skyline at the south end of Grant Park.


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  #4075  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 7:44 PM
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very nice!
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  #4076  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2023, 1:21 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is online now
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fyi via a viking cruises junk mail —
surprizingly, this one was the most expensive of all the cruises —


expedition itineraries
great lakes collection
15 days
toronto to duluth
may-sept 2024 & may-aug 2025
all inclusive voyages
from $12,995 pp

also, niagara & the great lakes
toronto to milwaukee
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  #4077  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2023, 1:28 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is online now
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Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground View Post
I think there’s a few interesting points to unpack across this discussion. First off regarding Lake Erie there was an excellent documentary done by PBS Toledo called The Erie Situation about the source of the blooms and why despite many small farmers taking active interest in water quality the situation has stayed much the same. I was lucky to find a local activist’s recording of the tv screen over the winter after months of trying, it made a lot of powerful people and industry look very bad.

The loss of the black swamp certainly effected the water quality of the western basin however as the wetlands estuary system of the western basin does play a role in filtering river water before it enters the shallow western basin. The 90’s saw a significant jump in water quality to Lake Erie as a whole pointing to a different cause to the recent algae blooms as opposed to the industrial nitrogen sourced blooms of the 60’s-70’s. The Erie Situation points the finger at consented animal feed lots and the stranglehold big agribusiness has over the Ohio State Government as the culprit in the Maumee Basin.

Several problems were noted as standing out as standing out in particular. First and foremost is the definition of what is a consented animal feed lot there is a clear cut off at say 2,000 head of cattle or 10,000 chicken. The number of inspectors is small and it’s easy to sell off a certain number of animals when an inspection is coming up to slide in under the limit where regulations come into play.

There has been explosive growth over the past decade or so in the number of these “small” and unregulated consented animal feed lots and all of these businesses produce a siloing effect of building up nitrogen in the ground. A ancillary business that makes the feed lot model especially profitable is selling off the liquid manure as fertilizer to local farmers. There is an overuse of manure as a fertilizer as well as a loss of loam in the soil due to the use of industrial fertilizers and pesticides increasing run off and reducing soil water retention.

To the credit of the small farm industry in general there has been a shift towards organic agriculture out of pocket and in the Maumee basin local farmers / activists are demonstrating the benefits of the 2-3 year hit in yields “detoxing” their soil from traditional fertilizers. The use of mixed solid manure as fertilizer as well as better farm practices have reduced the amount of nitrogen entering the Maumee on their part.

Not to cop out Michigan and Ontario are also contributors to the problem, SW Ontario in particular has very intensive agriculture and lacks for the most part coastal estuaries on Erie to act as filtration. Though the main River basin the Thames flows into St Clair causing blooms in the east and southern portions of the lake due to currents and the discharge point. The size, shape and quality of the former black swamp for agricultural production exacerbates the nitrogen build up in the shallow western basin.

As for the dimensions of Detroit sprawl the standard answer that downriver is less desirable and its job base has stagnated or shrunk is valid however it’s not universally applicable for the reason. South of the Romulus - Taylor - Wayne/Inkster - Southgate - Ecorse/River Rouge line downriver becomes more desirable. Grosse Ille has wealth while the cities and twp’s to the west of it are around the national median for household income some higher and with wealth like Rockwood with Flat Rock lower with an industrial base but the area is becoming more desirable, populated with standard of living rising.

As mentioned before is the strong anti-sprawl sentiment in surrounding more rural communities with clauses built into many characters like along the M-14 corridor near Ann Arbor. Huron Twp is the perfect example of the kind of model development that is acceptable in these communities. The southern A2 UA Saline to Belleville is similar though has experienced more growth due to the pressure to expand somewhere.

I think DTW is a limiting factor for growth directly south of it in Huron twp because of the style of growth that is encouraged by residents to make the area what they feel as more desirable. Perhaps as the Gordie Howe Bridge comes online and (high speed) passenger service between Detroit and Toronto is restored the Ypsilanti & Romulus area will see more commercial and industrial development changing the character of the Michigan Ave - 94 corridor.

Residential development in Monroe County in the area south of M-50 and east of US-23 follows the model of Huron Twp but to a lighter degree. There is residential development along the major roads but with more farmland. The new residential development is generally higher end but perhaps a bit more tasteful than rural North Oakland McMansion’s.

The near meltdown of the Fermi 1 prototype breeds reactor for weapons grade material has kept development away from the 75 - Telegraph corridor between the Wayne County line and Monroe with much of the coast either state park or the Detroit International Wildlife Refuge this area has several anti development pressures against it. While passenger rail between Detroit and Toledo may create growth in Monroe in the future the pattern of light development will likely continue just increasing in density.

There have been attempts to kickstart the sprawl machine in the 90’s and 2000’s by building I-73 along the 223 corridor from US-23 to Jackson completing the “I-69 outer ring”. However there was fierce opposition along with it being a speculative project it was finally abandoned in 2010 with roundabouts and an improved interchange being the result. I have Family in the Monroe - Dundee area they have a nice home they built themselves on a beautiful 2 acre oak forest lot on Secore Rd.

The other side of the Metro has development pressure that has been encouraging sprawl the “Lakes Area” of the Irish Hills geological formation comes close to NW Detroit. The area was a resort getaway in the inter-war period building a framework infrastructure that would facilitate sprawl after the inner 696-275 ring was completed. The Woodward Ave axis being developed in the inter-war period as well provided a strong infrastructure framework for dense sprawl along the edge of the lakes area with the hills, wetlands and lakes providing a natural increase to desirability to neighboring communities.

The arrangement of satellite cities with A2 and Flint being on the other side of the most desirable areas of wealthy development as well as Livingston County being a crossroads made Oakland a natural choice for sprawl. While Livingston has been one of the fastest growing counties in the state it’s in the exurban style with some caveats like the US-23 fwy & rail corridor allowing for future density in the Brighton area.

Macomb is a bit of a mixture it has St Clair coast and it’s far north has similar hilly terrain with small lakes but it is one of the industrial arms of Detroit. The 94-Gratiot corridor along with the Van Dyke - Mound industrial corridor extends down to Connor Ave and City Airport. Northern Macomb is in many ways great sprawl machine of the metro as the UA is developed uninterrupted in the clear, flatten & super wide lane road style. The Mound-Van Dyke industrial corridor has been generally a success similar to the Plymouth Rd corridor in Livonia but on a much greater scale. The Detroit Arsenal at 696 and Mound houses the US Army Ground Vehicle Systems Center and Tank and Automotive Command Center with the GM R&D Center in between the General Dynamics Land Services Center. Macomb has its own issues that could be a regional thread of its own however that I will skip.

The 75 corridor with the Tri or Quad Cities is a legacy resource extraction corridor as the Bay Area was the focus for the lumber industry into the early 20th century when the Great Lakes resource trade helped spin up the industry its know for. Michigan being a peninsula helps to isolate the Bay Area from through trade that in another part of the country would be a boost and tourism is just beginning to become a major industry on Lake Huron.

The state could do more to help the region but it has a full plate of issues that take strong, creative & visionary leadership to chip away at and swing the pendulum with the headwinds of the past 5 years. Reinvigorating the Michigan Ave - 94 corridor would go a long way to helping the state with its isolated geography tap into national growth a bit better. Although at the same time I was reading about how Wisconsin put the highest percentage of its Covid funds into small businesses and the success of isolated communities along the UP border retaining and expanding commercial institutions is something to note. Though it’s easier to save businesses when they are struggling then get new ones going after a recession.

this was a very interesting read. it seems the initial benefits of the chinese zebra mussels are over and local farming practices are more of an issue, but glad to hear its improving. anyway, thanks for bringing us up to date around this area i appeciate it.
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  #4078  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2023, 1:45 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is online now
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Buffalo's c.1923 Statler Hotel revitalization plans have been revised. The 100 year old hotel is planned to be rejuvenated into an amazing mixed-use structure.
history: https://buffaloah.com/a/del/107/signif.html
[spoiler]


the statler hotels story is pretty interesting.

to add, statler died of pneumonia in his apt in his nyc penn hotel age 64.

anyway, glad to see buffalo is on to redeveloping this.

of note, the impressive cleveland statler, which i believe was the first one built outside of buffalo, was converted into 295 apts back in 2001.


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  #4079  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2023, 2:30 PM
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Ah, this is why Chicago is reluctant to invest more in port facilities.

By this report, the Winter repositioning itinerary for American Queen failed, and the Summer season on the lakes isn’t enough to make up for it.

It’s reasonable to assume the new buyer will move these two ships out of the Great Lakes permanently.

If specially built Great Lakes/Antarctic expedition ships are the only arrangement that can work, only a handful of cruise lines have the resources.

Ship lay-up costs prompted American Queen to exit Great Lakes
https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-...ip-layup-costs

Quote:
Cindy D'Aoust, president of American Queen Voyages, said the line decided to leave the Great Lakes because it was too costly to lay up the Navigator and Voyager in the offseason.
"Even though the Great Lakes have been received well -- the net promoter scores and the guest satisfaction is very high -- ultimately the cost to lay the vessels up for only a six-month sailing period really outweighed the benefits of sailing for a very short seasonal routine," she said.
Quote:
Unlike other ships in the Great Lakes, like Viking's expedition vessels that also sail in Antarctica and several Ponant ships that sail global itineraries, D'Aoust said the Navigator and Voyager were not designed to sail in other climates.
The line tried operating one of the ships in Mexico to test out a possible offseason option but found the guest satisfaction wasn't strong enough, with the ships each lacking a pool and outdoor dining.
Quote:
But she hinted that American Queen might revisit exploring the coasts in the future.
"Coastal cruising is an incredibly popular offering and something that we hope to explore again in the future with the right vessel," she said.
Cruise company to leave Great Lakes, sell ships
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/ne...%20in%20Alaska.

https://www.travelagewest.com/Travel...es-great-lakes

Quote:
American Queen Voyages will finish the 2023 cruise season on the Great Lakes, then sell its Ocean Navigator and Ocean Voyager ships as it focuses instead on its other cruises along rivers and in Alaska.
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  #4080  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2023, 3:50 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
chinese zebra mussels
The invasive zebra and quagga mussels that are now permanently at home in the great lakes originally came over in ship ballast tanks from the black sea region (their native range), not china.

You can blame china for all sorts of things, but it had nothing to do with zebra and quagga mussels getting into, and taking over, the great lakes.




Quote:
Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
Ah, this is why Chicago is reluctant to invest more in port facilities.

By this report, the Winter repositioning itinerary for American Queen failed, and the Summer season on the lakes isn’t enough to make up for it.

It’s reasonable to assume the new buyer will move these two ships out of the Great Lakes permanently.

If specially built Great Lakes/Antarctic expedition ships are the only arrangement that can work, only a handful of cruise lines have the resources.

Ship lay-up costs prompted American Queen to exit Great Lakes
https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-...ip-layup-costs
I think winter lay-up costs are a convenient cover for the real story here, which is that the two AQV ships have simply been literally outclassed by the newer and significantly larger ships entering the great lakes cruising market.

They are now the two smallest and least "amenitied" great lakes cruise ships. That didn't matter so much back when they were one of the only games in town.

But the GL cruising game has now changed!


Exhibit A:


Source: wikipedia
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jul 7, 2023 at 4:01 PM.
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