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  #61  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
So cute That would be a big plus for my gf and I while traveling (we love cats, but don't bring them with us obviously).

Those cleaning charges are total bullshit. I had no idea some people did this. My Airbnbs are actually fully runs like real hotels, my buddy who runs them has his employees who change the bed sheets, make the beds, clean the dishes and mugs, clean the bathrooms, refill toilet paper and soap/shampoo, etc. It's built in the price of the stay and there's no other charge for anything (AFAIK).

Contrary to most here, I've actually never been a user of Airbnb, only a supplier of them. So I realize I don't actually know how most of them are run -- just mine.
that's the way it should be!

By your traumatic stories that you and your gf have went through, why don't you go on a nice vacation? Everyone needs a break from the mundanity of life. What's the point of earning large sums of money if you never enjoy yourself?
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  #62  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
Although I stated I'm pro-AirBNB, I do have some complaints about some of the ones I've stayed in:

- No check-in process. The second time I used AirBNB - ironically in Old Montreal just a few blocks from last week's fire - I got to the property and there was no way to get in. The doorbell didn't work and nobody answered the phone at the number in the listing. It took 3-4 hours to reach someone to get let in - and this was at the tail end of a snowstorm.

- Falsely advertising that the listing had two rooms when it was in fact one. I had specifically booked that place as I was bringing a friend and we wanted separate rooms for each of us. The host seemed unaware that her own listing stated this when I brought it up to her.

- Falsely advertising that the listing was a room in a family's home. The family did not live in the home, it was in fact a house with 6 AirBNB rooms. That one was also extremely hot all the time, with the temperature often in the high 80s and the window in the bedroom being non-openable (a fire hazard, in retrospect)

- Security cameras in the kitchen which the host could watch at any time. I don't like the idea of being watched while I'm in the unit. I have no problem with a security camera at the entrance, but in the unit is too much. As that was not disclosed in the listing, I made sure to point out the existence of the cameras in my review.

Aside from those four experiences, I've had excellent experiences with AirBNBs - there have been many more positive experiences than negative ones. The best one I stayed in had a cat, and the cat was very fond of me for some reason.
The no check in or improper check in process is annoying AF.
Encountered this issue with my best friend in Toronto pre-pandemic. We were staying right on Bloor near Christie Pits park, in a small older rental building and had to contact the owner to get the key. It took 3-4 hours to finally get into the place as well!
And the apartment was hot as hell with 2 box fans and not enough windows.
In our case we paid for the location and not much else.

False advertising and cameras sound even worse!
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  #63  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 6:06 PM
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Minor disagreement there; If New York and Hong Kong can continue to build taller and taller buildings in Manhattan and Central, then I think every Canadian city has a long long way to go before there's any restriction on the amount of space.

New York and Hong Kong are actually great examples of how construction isn't something that's easily scalable in a practical way. As space is taken up, land values rise, and the only way for a development to justify the cost of the land is to build very tall and/or very high-end. Unfortunately, supertalls (especially ones in crowded urban settings) require complex engineering & logistics, and are just about the most costly form of construction on a PSF basis - and so the units are priced accordingly. As density increases, therefore so too must prices. This isn't necessarily a bad thing when it happens in limited high-demand geographies, but it certainly shouldn't be the goal of our housing policy. 

New York also has a lot more heritage protections and other regulations, and builds proportionately less than we do. I'm not sure where this idea of Canadian cities not building anything or being anti-development came from, when in reality Canada is probably the most development-friendly country in the western world. We have some bad zoning rules and the approvals process can take too long in many cities, but the construction industry is still firing on all cylinders and delivering hundreds of thousands of new units every year (again, proportionately much more than the US and likely most other western countries). 




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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
Also, AirBnBs, just like investor-owned rentals, are not an inefficient allocation of resources. They're productive in the economy in their own way since if they're lucrative for those investing in them then they're clearly economically viable, so I wouldn't just casually throw them away as an inefficient allocation of resources. Is building a hotel instead of a condo building inefficient? I think it's probably better for the economy if housing units had more usage flexibility so instead of only allowing a building to be a hotel or a condo building let it potentially be both!

Good lord, where do I even begin with this one. Real estate is the worst allocation of capital. Speculation is an inherently predatory practice (as it necessitates reducing the buying power of others by bidding up the cost of their basic necessity of shelter to profit), but is also the least efficient way to optimize economic efficiency & innovation, as it grows debt, diverts spending away from other sectors, and investment dollars away from more innovative businesses. It enriches a few, at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason why Canada's is the worst-performing economy in the OECD and it's because real estate is such a big part of our economy: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...mong-advanced/
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  #64  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
- Security cameras in the kitchen which the host could watch at any time. I don't like the idea of being watched while I'm in the unit. I have no problem with a security camera at the entrance, but in the unit is too much. As that was not disclosed in the listing, I made sure to point out the existence of the cameras in my review.

That's definitely illegal and should have been reported directly to AirBnB.
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  #65  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
New York and Hong Kong [...]
Again, not talking about housing policy, just the fact that any Canadian city would have to grow 10x the size to have the same land constraints as New York or Hong Kong, both of which are still growing despite those constraints.

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Good lord, where do I even begin with this one. Real estate is the worst allocation of capital. Speculation is an inherently predatory practice (as it necessitates reducing the buying power of others by bidding up the cost of their basic necessity of shelter to profit), but is also the least efficient way to optimize economic efficiency & innovation, as it grows debt, diverts spending away from other sectors, and investment dollars away from more innovative businesses. It enriches a few, at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason why Canada's is the worst-performing economy in the OECD and it's because real estate is such a big part of our economy: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...mong-advanced/
I used to believe this, but I don't really quite follow how it makes sense anymore. Real estate investment does not destroy capital. For every purchaser there is an equal and opposite seller receiving that capital who is free to reinvest it; For every renter there is an equal and opposite leaser receiving the rent who is free to reinvest it. Capital is not "locked into" real estate in a way that prevents that capital from flowing through the economy, it's just a fairly illiquid asset.

Debt is not bad for economic growth (in fact the opposite) I don't know if there's such thing as "diverting spending" when capital is not destroyed.

You can definitely make the argument that high real estate prices promote economic inequality, but I don't think you can make the argument that high real estate prices are a bad use of capital.
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  #66  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post


I used to believe this, but I don't really quite follow how it makes sense anymore. Real estate investment does not destroy capital. For every purchaser there is an equal and opposite seller receiving that capital who is free to reinvest it; For every renter there is an equal and opposite leaser receiving the rent who is free to reinvest it. Capital is not "locked into" real estate in a way that prevents that capital from flowing through the economy, it's just a fairly illiquid asset.
By this logic no investment is more economically productive than another simply based on the fact that someone ultimately received the money invested? Real estate is unproductive because it employs very few people (once constructed), produces almost no innovation, and sucks away capital that could otherwise be invested in areas that do achieve the former. Opportunity cost is the name of the game, and it's costing Canada its economic future.

By promoting a system that puts real estate on a pedestal compared to every other investment, you're heavily incentivising the people who do receive large capital injections from selling property, or monthly cash flows from renting, to just put that money back into real estate. Ultimately this is crowding out people who don't want to spend 60% of their income on their housing, who otherwise perhaps would have invested in a business or started their own but whose disposable income is now enslaved by the system we've created around a fundamental human need.
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  #67  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 8:10 PM
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By this logic no investment is more economically productive than another simply based on the fact that someone ultimately received the money invested? Real estate is unproductive because it employs very few people (once constructed), produces almost no innovation, and sucks away capital that could otherwise be invested in areas that do achieve the former. Opportunity cost is the name of the game, and it's costing Canada its economic future.

By promoting a system that puts real estate on a pedestal compared to every other investment, you're heavily incentivising the people who do receive large capital injections from selling property, or monthly cash flows from renting, to just put that money back into real estate. Ultimately this is crowding out people who don't want to spend 60% of their income on their housing, who otherwise perhaps would have invested in a business or started their own but whose disposable income is now enslaved by the system we've created around a fundamental human need.
Investments can be productive or unproductive for the individual and I agree that real estate investments don't seem to be as productive for the individual as other investments, but if the money is eventually flowing into other investments, that shouldn't matter in the broader perspective of the economy. Especially if it's not employing many people, the opportunity cost of capital taking a slight detour through a real estate transaction should be no worse than holding that same capital in cash for a couple months while finding another investment.

I'd say if someone owns a trucking business and they take 100% of the earnings and hide that money under their mattress for retirement, that's far worse for the economy than if someone buys a condo for an AirBnB and puts 100% of the earnings towards investing in local businesses.
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  #68  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
Investments can be productive or unproductive for the individual and I agree that real estate investments don't seem to be as productive for the individual as other investments, but if the money is eventually flowing into other investments, that shouldn't matter in the broader perspective of the economy. Especially if it's not employing many people, the opportunity cost of capital taking a slight detour through a real estate transaction should be no worse than holding that same capital in cash for a couple months while finding another investment.

I'd say if someone owns a trucking business and they take 100% of the earnings and hide that money under their mattress for retirement, that's far worse for the economy than if someone buys a condo for an AirBnB and puts 100% of the earnings towards investing in local businesses.
The whole point is that they are not flowing into other investments. Canada as a nation disproportionately allocates our cumulative available capital into overpriced real estate. Your argument is basically that if the Government spent $1 billion on a bridge to nowhere in Nunavut instead of the new Windsor/Detroit bridge, the "broader economic perspective" is that it doesn't matter because the contractors involved still got $1 billion and can now invest that money back into the economy. It ignores the reality that available capital is finite and every dollar invested in one sector is a dollar not spent elsewhere that could've produced significantly more positive externalities.

If your going to use your example you need to compare someone reinvesting the profits of their business back into said business, vs. a landlord reinvesting into more real estate in a finite market.
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  #69  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 8:46 PM
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The whole point is that they are not flowing into other investments. Canada as a nation disproportionately allocates our cumulative available capital into overpriced real estate. Your argument is basically that if the Government spent $1 billion on a bridge to nowhere in Nunavut instead of the new Windsor/Detroit bridge, the "broader economic perspective" is that it doesn't matter because the contractors involved still got $1 billion and can now invest that money back into the economy. It ignores the reality that available capital is finite and every dollar invested in one sector is a dollar not spent elsewhere that could've produced significantly more positive externalities.

If your going to use your example you need to compare someone reinvesting the profits of their business back into said business, vs. a landlord reinvesting into more real estate in a finite market.
Sure, we can make that comparison. If the Canadian government were to spend $1 billion on a bridge to nowhere in the arctic and used basically no labour to do so or manufacturing capacity in Canada (real estate transactions take effectively no labour or resources), that would be zero ROI for the government but economic stimulus all the same. Not to try to bring outside politics into this, but in Canada we generally tend to side with the Keynesians that quantitative easing can be used to stimulate the economy, even though it's "unproductive".

Real estate investments are generally better since the dollars continue to circulate, and the individual at least has non-zero ROI.

I feel like underlying this discussion is a big disconnect between us over whether real estate is fairly priced or is a speculative bubble right now. I personally lean on the fairly priced side, but maybe you disagree there and think that real estate investors are pumping more and more money into a bubble.
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  #70  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 9:41 PM
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Sure, we can make that comparison. If the Canadian government were to spend $1 billion on a bridge to nowhere in the arctic and used basically no labour to do so or manufacturing capacity in Canada (real estate transactions take effectively no labour or resources), that would be zero ROI for the government but economic stimulus all the same. Not to try to bring outside politics into this, but in Canada we generally tend to side with the Keynesians that quantitative easing can be used to stimulate the economy, even though it's "unproductive".

Real estate investments are generally better since the dollars continue to circulate, and the individual at least has non-zero ROI.

I feel like underlying this discussion is a big disconnect between us over whether real estate is fairly priced or is a speculative bubble right now. I personally lean on the fairly priced side, but maybe you disagree there and think that real estate investors are pumping more and more money into a bubble.
It's about the efficient allocation of capital and that holds true regardless even if real estate is fairly priced. A bridge to nowhere is not just zero ROI for the government. It's zero ROI for everyone who benefits from increased trade and freedom of movement with our most important neighbour to the south, and will not receive those benefits because of a poor allocation of a fixed amount of capital.
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  #71  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 9:55 PM
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The City of Vancouver has some pretty stringent requirements to get a Short-term Rental Licence ($109 a year) . They have an MoU with AirBnB to require that the Licence number is included in the listing. You can see the basis on which someone can get a licence here.
Yeah they have all that, now try and report an illegal one. It's impossible and the enforcement is non-existent.
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  #72  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 11:33 PM
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Yeah they have all that, now try and report an illegal one. It's impossible and the enforcement is non-existent.
You can supposedly report it here (or call 311).

In 2021 908 casefiles were opened, 151 inspections carried out, 212 Licences were suspended or voluntarily closed due to non-compliance, and 8 cases were referred for prosecution.
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  #73  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 11:50 PM
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It's about the efficient allocation of capital and that holds true regardless even if real estate is fairly priced. A bridge to nowhere is not just zero ROI for the government. It's zero ROI for everyone who benefits from increased trade and freedom of movement with our most important neighbour to the south, and will not receive those benefits because of a poor allocation of a fixed amount of capital.
I think your reasoning is flawed because once the government uses its available capital that capital is gone for the government. So you're right, the government has squandered the potential investment of its fixed capital. The government is the only real authority to construct critical infrastructure in Canada so that's definitely a lost opportunity cost. For private individuals and organizations though, misallocation of capital doesn't cause it to disappear, it just becomes available to whoever it is given to.

If the government blows a billion dollars on a bad infrastructure project, that's a billion dollars that cannot be used for infrastructure improvements.
If a private entity blows a billion dollars on a bad investment, that's a billion dollars another private entity now has (probably minus some tax kickbacks to the government, good right?) that can be used for another investment.
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  #74  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 2:24 AM
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that's the way it should be!

By your traumatic stories that you and your gf have went through, why don't you go on a nice vacation? Everyone needs a break from the mundanity of life. What's the point of earning large sums of money if you never enjoy yourself?
Lol. You're not the first one to ask me this exact question.

I almost went on a little vacation just now (couple weeks in coastal FL) but since I'm selfless, I'm sending my parents instead; they're leaving in a couple days. (Someone has to go take care of some business there -- but it's still partly a vacation.)
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  #75  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 3:00 AM
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Again, not talking about housing policy, just the fact that any Canadian city would have to grow 10x the size to have the same land constraints as New York or Hong Kong, both of which are still growing despite those constraints.

Of course we have room to grow, but how is that relevant? The point is that if housing is being built, but a significant proportion of that is being used for investment/airbnb purposes instead of it's actual intended use as housing, then even more housing needs to be built, which is both inefficient and drives prices up further than they would otherwise need to; and that the free market cannot just infinitely provide further supply to meet theoretically infinite demand due to multiple real-world physical constraints (of which space is just one).



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I used to believe this, but I don't really quite follow how it makes sense anymore. Real estate investment does not destroy capital. For every purchaser there is an equal and opposite seller receiving that capital who is free to reinvest it; For every renter there is an equal and opposite leaser receiving the rent who is free to reinvest it. Capital is not "locked into" real estate in a way that prevents that capital from flowing through the economy, it's just a fairly illiquid asset.

This is such a simplistic take on economics. Just because money is being spent does not mean equal value will be derived from it, regardless of what it is being spent on. Put simply, there are more productive and less productive uses of money, and real estate is one of the less productive ones, as it encourages rent-seeking behaviour instead of real wealth growth.

Canada also has a greater share of its wealth tied up in real estate than any other developed country does, which makes our economy more volatile and susceptible to swings in the market. As is the case anywhere, the more diversified the economy, the more resilient it is. But don't take my word for it - as I noted before, the OECD predicts that Canada will be one of the worst economic performers for the next several decades, in no small part due to our low-productivity, heavily real estate-focused economy; while Oxford Economics warns that Canada's over-reliance on real estate is putting us at a greater risk of economic crisis.
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  #76  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 3:15 AM
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Lol. You're not the first one to ask me this exact question.

I almost went on a little vacation just now (couple weeks in coastal FL) but since I'm selfless, I'm sending my parents instead; they're leaving in a couple days. (Someone has to go take care of some business there -- but it's still partly a vacation.)
Taking care of business is not a vacation
You have to unplug from work
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  #77  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
that's the way it should be!

By your traumatic stories that you and your gf have went through, why don't you go on a nice vacation? Everyone needs a break from the mundanity of life. What's the point of earning large sums of money if you never enjoy yourself?
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  #78  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Of course we have room to grow, but how is that relevant? The point is that if housing is being built, but a significant proportion of that is being used for investment/airbnb purposes instead of it's actual intended use as housing, then even more housing needs to be built, which is both inefficient and drives prices up further than they would otherwise need to; and that the free market cannot just infinitely provide further supply to meet theoretically infinite demand due to multiple real-world physical constraints (of which space is just one).
To further this point I think it's important to look at the type of housing airbnb is replacing. As mentioned before I don't think short term rentals are the cause of Toronto's housing crisis, or even a major factor compared to the use of real estate as an investment vehicle. But a lot of the housing we'd consider affordable in central areas - small apartments and places verging on but not quite SROs (buildings with lots of small units) is what's being used for airbnbs. Even if all regulations were thrown out the window I can't see this type of housing being replaced at anywhere near the rate it needs to be. Now look at smaller centres that experience high levels of tourism but little economic/population growth - it's easy to see how the market gets massively distorted.

Of course on the other end of the spectrum we have stuff like ICE condos - two massive towers that are seemingly predominantly Airbnb. To the point where the condo board has an exclusivity deal for listing and takes a cut of the listing fees! Who is this benefiting exactly? Constant complaints from people who actually want to live in their units and from the City's perspective it's just another condo - not a commercial building with a much higher usage rate. I'm not sure how anyone can say this is an efficient use of resources.



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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
This is such a simplistic take on economics. Just because money is being spent does not mean equal value will be derived from it, regardless of what it is being spent on. Put simply, there are more productive and less productive uses of money, and real estate is one of the less productive ones, as it encourages rent-seeking behaviour instead of real wealth growth.
Indeed.

Also not clear how someone can claim that any form or real estate investment is economically productive, yet also think that the housing crisis can be solved simply by allowing more permissive zoning (which again, I think is only a small part of the issue). These seem like contradictory statements to me - if the viability of real estate investment hinges on policy decisions then it seems maybe not the most productive/efficient investment.
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  #79  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 1:50 PM
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The problem with the argument as well is that it ignores the reality of real estate as a fundamental human need and not just a paper investment. Despite our incentivization of real estate investing, the vast majority of residential product is still owned by those who occupy it. Any proceeds on a transaction for those properties is not some free and clear cash flow to be used for something more productive. A substantial portion of it has to be used for replacement, unlike an equity investment which we do not require to keep us warm in the winter...

That is what is meant by capital being tied up in the system. Everyone needs it, our incomes our fixed, and so the more expensive it becomes relative to incomes, the less money we collectively have to spend on things that produce far more positive externalities through job creation and innovation.
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  #80  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 3:17 PM
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Taking care of business is not a vacation
You have to unplug from work
That's an unrealistically high standard for calling something a vacation, IMO

Don't worry so much for me. If I ever feel like I need a Wigs-style vacation, I'll take one
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