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  #3481  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 4:20 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
A good number are, but I'm pretty sure a majority are Protestant. White Catholics only narrowly outnumber White Protestants 38%-33% in the Chicago metro area. German ancestry is the most common in the region, and they must be the largest among White Protestants.
i wasn't saying that all german ancestry chicagolanders are catholic (there are obviously shit-tons of lutherans too), i was only going against your earlier implicaiton that nearly all white catholics in chicagoland are of either irish, italian, or polish heritage.

yes, those three make up the lion's share, no doubt, but german catholics are a signinficant block too.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Mar 26, 2023 at 9:37 PM.
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  #3482  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 9:33 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Right. That's why it's a proxy measure. The more Irish, Poles and Italians the more white Catholic. There isn't a strong correlation with German ancestry.
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  #3483  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 7:31 PM
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I thought one of our forumers took a great albeit hazy shot of Buffalo from the 15th floor of Buffalo General, looking south towards the CBD and Lake Erie.

Last edited by Wigs; Mar 28, 2023 at 12:50 AM.
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  #3484  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
This one is looking towards Buffalo's East side with the former Central Terminal visible in addition to many church steeples (the former Polonia - highest concentration of Poles/Polish Americans outside Chicago at one time)
In the middle the 3-4 storey concrete looking structure is City Honors HS, Western NY's magnet school (top 1% of 24,000 high schools US (#26 NY State, #234 Nationally) per US News and World Report)
That school in the middle is actually the Art-Deco style PS No. 37 Futures Academy, an elementary school constructed in 1934.

City Honors is seen in this view toward the Northeast, in front of the Masten Avenue Armory. The City Honors building was constructed in 1912, and prior to its use as City Honors in 1980 was called Fosdick-Masten Vocational School for girls offering courses in business, foods, clothing, beauty culture and practical nursing.


Last edited by benp; Mar 28, 2023 at 10:36 PM.
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  #3485  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by benp View Post
That school in the middle is actually the Art-Deco style PS No. 37 Futures Academy, an elementary school constructed in 1934.

City Honors is seen in this view toward the Northeast, in front of the Masten Avenue Armory. The City Honors building was constructed in 1912, and prior to its use as City Honors in 1980 was called Fosdick-Masten Vocational School for girls offering courses in business, foods, clothing, beauty culture and practical nursing.
my bad. Thanks for the correction
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  #3486  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2023, 4:54 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Tragic. I didn't realize suburban politicians thwarted the building of a Detroit subway:

https://twitter.com/im_sorry_wtf/sta...77517833338884
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  #3487  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Tragic. I didn't realize suburban politicians thwarted the building of a Detroit subway:

https://twitter.com/im_sorry_wtf/sta...77517833338884
Yes, but the explanation was way off. First, the money wasn't allocated by the Reagan administration, I believe it was first allocated by the Nixon administration. The Reagan administration scaled back the program substantially, and that's why it has been nearly impossible to start a new subway system in the U.S. since the 1970s. Detroit's system was supposed to be funded from the same program that created the Washington Metro, Atlanta MARTA, and SF BART. I believe Seattle was also a candidate for this round of subway development and they were also never able to get construction started on their system before the project was killed by local politicians.

Second, L Brooks Patterson wasn't the Oakland County executive in that era. He wasn't elected until the 1990s, and by then the plan was dead.

Third, it was a combination of actions by the federal government, state of Michigan, Oakland County, AND the city of Detroit that sealed the fate. In the late 1960s, Michigan was following the trend of other states with large urban areas by acquiring the private commuter rail mass transit operators and turning them into public agencies. The state created SEMTA, a state agency, which assumed operations of a commuter rail service between Detroit and Oakland County for over a decade. They killed the service in the early 1980s around the time that the Reagan administration restructured the federal transit program. The agency that operated the commuter rail service was expected to be the agency to build the Detroit subway at that time. It was supposed to acquire the Detroit Dept of Transportation (the city's bus agency), but disagreement about how to manage that stalled the acquisition for years. (It probably should have been structured like NYC's agreement to lease NYC Transit to the MTA, instead of an outright sale.) This agency ultimately became the current bus system that serves the suburban municipalities around Detroit.

I think the true flaw of the arrangement was Oakland County being given way too much power by the state in the process, since it should have been a system hyper focused on the city of Detroit.
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  #3488  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 6:05 PM
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Yeah, the subway story in Detroit is more complex than "evil racist suburban politicans thwarted transit". It isn't entirely untrue, but just one piece of the puzzle.

Detroit came very close to building a subway system four separate times - in the early 1920's, in the 1930's, in the 1950's and in the 1970's. Once the subway was actually approved, but the mayor overrode council approval. Another time the subway came one vote short of approval. In the two more recent instances, the subway was approved, but the city and suburbs couldn't come to an organizational agreement.

And, for the more recent times, both the city and suburbs share fault. Mayor Young didn't want to give up control of the city transit agency, and the suburbs didn't want to subsidize a system for the city. Detroit had 90% of the metro area's transit ridership, and the last subway proposal would give 25% of the operating authority's power (the three main counties would have the other 75%). So Mayor Young didn't want to have 25% of the power for 90% of the ridership. And the burbs were 90% of the funding but 10% of the ridership, so you can see how suburban voters would be skeptical.

Of course this all points to the huge flaws with racial and economic segregation, and regional balkanization. Even to this day, the city and suburbs have their own separate bus systems, and the suburban bus system can't pick up riders in the city.

Also, now it's too late. The region doesn't have the linear arterial density for heavy rail. It still did in the 1980's, so the whole thing has basically been a disaster.
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  #3489  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 6:10 PM
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^ this is basically the same for cleveland. they had like four subway attempts too — and a people mover. and lately and much less seriously … a gondola tram lol.
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  #3490  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 6:23 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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At least Detroit and Cleveland (before RTA?) hadn't built the subway tunnels but never used them.

Looking at you, Cincinnati...
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  #3491  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 6:39 PM
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I think the Cincy tunnels were for light rail. Kinda like Rochester, which had a light rail tunnel. Don't think Cincy (or Rochester) ever had plans for a heavy rail subway system. Maybe I'm getting cities confused, though.
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  #3492  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 8:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, the subway story in Detroit is more complex than "evil racist suburban politicans thwarted transit". It isn't entirely untrue, but just one piece of the puzzle.

Detroit came very close to building a subway system four separate times - in the early 1920's, in the 1930's, in the 1950's and in the 1970's. Once the subway was actually approved, but the mayor overrode council approval. Another time the subway came one vote short of approval. In the two more recent instances, the subway was approved, but the city and suburbs couldn't come to an organizational agreement.

And, for the more recent times, both the city and suburbs share fault. Mayor Young didn't want to give up control of the city transit agency, and the suburbs didn't want to subsidize a system for the city. Detroit had 90% of the metro area's transit ridership, and the last subway proposal would give 25% of the operating authority's power (the three main counties would have the other 75%). So Mayor Young didn't want to have 25% of the power for 90% of the ridership. And the burbs were 90% of the funding but 10% of the ridership, so you can see how suburban voters would be skeptical.

Of course this all points to the huge flaws with racial and economic segregation, and regional balkanization. Even to this day, the city and suburbs have their own separate bus systems, and the suburban bus system can't pick up riders in the city.

Also, now it's too late. The region doesn't have the linear arterial density for heavy rail. It still did in the 1980's, so the whole thing has basically been a disaster.

Yes to your conclusion.

This also points to the fact that if Detroit were to actually experience a true renaissance, it would need input from the suburbs, a metropolitan coalescence which it never had for the reasons you mentioned. Also, in spite of fits and starts that sometimes look like the city is on a rebound, there are still a lot of issues with downtown and midtown’s rebirth spurred in part by Gilbert’s impulse and other major players. The neighborhoods are still in dereliction, and unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any substantial proposal from political leaders to support a convergeance of interests, and a regional approach to development.


Detroit is like a rich kid that fell prey to drugs and will never kick the habit, going back home to snatch from the mother’s purse and out for a fix before going to sleep in an alley.
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  #3493  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 2:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Detroit came very close to building a subway system four separate times - in the early 1920's, in the 1930's, in the 1950's and in the 1970's. Once the subway was actually approved, but the mayor overrode council approval. Another time the subway came one vote short of approval. In the two more recent instances, the subway was approved, but the city and suburbs couldn't come to an organizational agreement.
The plan vetoed by James Couzens was probably the best subway plan the city ever had.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Also, now it's too late. The region doesn't have the linear arterial density for heavy rail. It still did in the 1980's, so the whole thing has basically been a disaster.
It's not too late at all. In fact, long term growth of the city and metro will depend on them creating a good mass transit system, as long as it doesn't get bogged down in trying to provide service to every far flung sprawlburb.
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  #3494  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It's not too late at all. In fact, long term growth of the city and metro will depend on them creating a good mass transit system, as long as it doesn't get bogged down in trying to provide service to every far flung sprawlburb.
I think it's too late for heavy rail. I doubt there will be another serious subway proposal, at least in our lifetimes. The corridors are currently too sparse.

Light rail has a chance, though. Especially along Woodward.
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  #3495  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 2:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think it's too late for heavy rail. I doubt there will be another serious subway proposal, at least in our lifetimes. The corridors are currently too sparse.

Light rail has a chance, though. Especially along Woodward.
Honestly, I think they should do heavy rail in Detroit right now. They should approach development of heavy rail the same way they decide to widen roads in northern Macomb County. Build it and hope they come.
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  #3496  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 6:41 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think the Cincy tunnels were for light rail.
No it was designed and built as high platform heavy rail - same as the Boston red line.

The Cincinnati story is very complicated. The reason why "streetcars" confuse the story is because the Cincinnati Street Railway was always expected to be the primary tenant of the city-built, city-owned tunnels and surface ROW, except existing or future streetcars were never expected to use it. Instead, the CSR was going to purchase heavy rail trains identical to Boston's Cambridge-Dorchester subway and do fareless streetcar/subway transfers at the rapid transit stations.

Minor tenants (and possibly sub-tenants of the CSR) were to be rural interurban railroads as well as (mostly overnight) freight deliveries to an underground freight depot. The turnouts for said depot were built but the structure itself was not.

The great flaw in the state law that enabled the City of Cincinnati to build the Rapid Transit Loop was that there was no way to force the Cincinnati Street Railroad to sign the franchise agreement. The thought was that the City could intimidate the street railway into signing the franchise (and therefore obligate it to many capital expenses not limited to finishing the stations, laying the rail, and buying the trains) by threatening to compete with it by opening its own operation (i.e. like how NYC's IND sent the IRT and BMT into bankruptcy), but as (bad) luck would have it, WWI inflation prevented the City from having enough money from the 1916 bond issue to pull it off.
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  #3497  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 10:33 PM
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County data from the released 2022 Census estimates for the core counties of Great Lakes and adjacent Rust Belt cities. I included last year's 2021 estimate along with the revised 2021 estimate, as there are a few significant changes in last years estimates.

These may be a preview of how the core cities are going to fare when the numbers are released later this year.

Chicago (Cook County)
2020 Census - 5,275,541
2021 Original Estimate - 5,173,146 (-102,395 from 2020, -1.94%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 5,177,606 (-97,935 from 2020, -1.86%)
2022 Estimate - 5,109,292 (-68,314 from 2021, -1.32%)

Detroit (Wayne County)
2020 Census - 1,793,561
2021 Original Estimate - 1,774,816 (-18,745 from 2020, -1.05%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 1,773,073 (-20,488 from 2020, -1.14%)
2022 Estimate - 1,757,043 (-16,030 from 2021, -0.9%)

Cleveland (Cuyahoga County)
2020 Census - 1,264,817
2021 Original Estimate - 1,249,387 (-15,430 from 2020, -1.22%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 1,247,808 (-17,009 from 2020, -1.34%)
2022 Estimate - 1,236,041 (-11,767 from 2021, -0.94%)

Milwaukee (Milwaukee County)
2020 Census - 939,489
2021 Original Estimate - 928,059 (-11,430 from 2020, -1.22%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 924,207 (-15,282 from 2020, -1.63%)
2022 Estimate - 918,661 (-5,546 from 2021, -0.6%)

Buffalo (Erie County)
2020 Census - 954,236
2021 Original Estimate - 950,684 (-3,553 from 2020. -0.37%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 954,350 (+114 from 2020, +0.01%)
2022 Estimate - 950,312 (-4,038 from 2021, -0.42%)

Rochester (Monroe County)
2020 Census - 759,443
2021 Original Estimate - 755,160 (-4,283 from 2020, -0.56%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 756,547 (-2,896 from 2020, -0.38%) 7
2022 Estimate - 752,035 (-4,512 from 2021, -0.6%)

Pittsburgh (Allegheny County)
2020 Census - 1,250,578
2021 Original Estimate - 1,238,090 (-12,488 from 2020, -1.0%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 1,245,445 (-5,133 from 2020, -0.41%)
2022 Estimate - 1,233,253 (-12,192 from 2021, -0.98%)

Cincinnati (Hamilton County)
2020 Census - 830,639
2021 Original Estimate - 826,139 (-4,500 from 2020, -0.54%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 827,501 (-3,138 from 2020, -0.38%)
2022 Estimate - 825,037 (-2,464 from 2021, -0.3%)

St. Louis (St. Louis city)
2020 Census - 301,578
2021 Original Estimate - 293,310 (-8,286 from 2020, -2.74%)
2021 Revised Estimate - 293,562 (-8,016 from 2020, -2.66%)
2022 Estimate - 286,578 (-6,984 from 2021, -2.38%)

If St. Louis continues on its current track it may fall below Buffalo's population within this decade.

Last edited by benp; Apr 3, 2023 at 11:47 PM.
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  #3498  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 11:04 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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In this case combining St. Louis city and county (or including both) might make more sense?
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  #3499  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
In this case combining St. Louis city and county (or including both) might make more sense?
I originally did this to trend potential core city changes using county data before city numbers are released. As St. Louis city is its own county, I didn't bother looking at SL County since it doesn't include the city. But, here they are combined...

St. Louis (St. Louis city+county)
2020 Census - 1,305,888
2021 Revised Estimate - 1,291,789 (-14,099 from 2020, -1.08%)
2022 Estimate - 1,276,992 (-14,797 from 2021, -1.15%)

(I don't have St. Louis County unrevised estimate for 2021.)
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  #3500  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 11:28 PM
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I don't trust the census estimates. Buffalo and Erie county are still growing.
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