NYC: The world’s most expensive city.

[McBane]

In regards to affordability, a different metric altogether, I believe Miami ranks up at the top based on the metro area's low wages vs the high cost of real estate fueled by ultra wealthy buyers from other markets.

But yes, it is interesting to see all the different ways "most expensive city" can be measured.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Is that an actual statistic, or just an anecdotal observation gleamed from looking at the most extravagant of Manhattan real estate?

PSF aside, actual median selling prices in New York aren't really that extreme - especially compared to median local wages. IIRC, even just within the US San Francisco has a higher median sale price to median wage ratio; to say nothing of overheated markets in lower-wage places like many of those in Canada, Europe, Asia, and Australia. New York's ultra-luxury market does get pretty extreme - you won't find $100 million apartments in many other cities, for example - but that's not representative of what most people are buying.

true, the crazy high end is not comparable to the whole and is best left aside, but actual sales are also not a full indication of reality either. price psf still comes into play when you get more elbow room for your money in many of those other places. or at least i would assume.

anecdotally friends bought a big double in missassagua in toronto’s overheated housing market to have elderly parents live below them and it cost the same as our 1200sqft condo in healthy, but not overheated staten island.

[chris08876]

NYC is very location specific with respect to huge fluctuations in prices. If folks go by the 50/30/20 budget rule, a single person making 90-100k will do quite well. If you up that, gross income, say a couple making a combined income of 160-180k, a 1-2 bedroom apartment in an okay area is doable. The city is expansive so location, location and location!

If not, that's why NJ's Gold Coast is there. Much cheaper.

How people maximize their budget will tell all. In theory, one does not need a car. If you live somewhere that provides laundry or perks for HOA, that will aid. And also if folks stop thinking of Manhattan as all there is in NYC, living than becomes much easier.

[McBane]

NYC is more than 6x the square miles of SF. Apples and apples would be (roughly) if NYC median sale price was based only on Manhattan and Brownstone Brooklyn. Boston, Seattle, and DC are somewhat similar (but still almost 2x SF's size) in that they're almost too small to have large middle class and poor areas.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by muppet

Hong Kong has little regulation for business, nor taxing. This makes it the world's freest place to do business and make money, and has often made it the most expensive place in the world if you include property prices, which are the worlds least affordable per sq ft and per property, both to locals and outsiders. Lack of taxing/ regulation means huge growth for the rich and the economy on paper, with ample room to exploit. However the high expense of everything effectively keeps the majority of the population priced out and poor.

It's basically an experiment in libertarianism, both China and the UK daren't try back home.

What are you talking about? HK real estate is not even close to being the freest. In fact, real estate market in HK is probably more regulated than anywhere in the United States, considering HK government is the one directing types and sizes of development and literally micro-manages every single building. Private developers are not just allowed to build new housing in Hong Kong at their own free will. In fact, there are no proper land property rights in Hong Kong as technically the Chinese government owns all the land and the developers merely lease it from the government. Hong Kong real estate market makes San Francisco look like libertarian utopia. HK also has a myriad of taxes, fees, and "government rent" that property owners have to pay. I think also HK caps the amount of deductions you can claim when it comes to property repair, these caps do not exist in the US.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

true, the crazy high end is not comparable to the whole and is best left aside, but actual sales are also not a full indication of reality either. price psf still comes into play when you get more elbow room for your money in many of those other places. or at least i would assume.

anecdotally friends bought a big double in missassagua in toronto’s overheated housing market to have elderly parents live below them and it cost the same as our 1200sqft condo in healthy, but not overheated staten island.

Another thing with NYC is that I feel like they count co-ops, Michell Llama, and other income-restricted housing in their averages and medians, and not simply use market rate housing in their statistics. Thats how you get silly metrics like the avg price being like $380K or whatever.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

IIRC, even just within the US San Francisco has a higher median sale price to median wage ratio;

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around - SF has a lower ratio than NYC. In other words, it's more affordable based on median wages.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Shawn

The overvalued dollar is propping up NYC and LA, while the undervalued yen magically made Japan's notoriously high cost of living just up and vanish.

Yeah, it's somewhat misleading to compare housing prices in different countries using the currency in one country. Almost nobody is buying a house in London using US dollars. The only place that might happen is at the very high end of the real estate market catering to the global elite.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Am I just ignorant about the details of real estate finance, or is using average values per square foot pretty silly in a place like NYC with such large volumes of top-end outliers in the data set?

Why don't we ever see reports like this with median values instead of mean?

Also, note the lack of Japanese cities in the list where normally Tokyo and Osaka both are in the top 10. The overvalued dollar is propping up NYC and LA, while the undervalued yen magically made Japan's notoriously high cost of living just up and vanish.

I found housing in Tokyo to be relatively cheap compared to NYC pre-pandemic (with normal conversion rates). For example, you could buy a 1-br apartment for like $400K in the middle of Shinjuku 1 min walk from the train station. Those prices simply do not exist in NYC for an equivalent location (say Herald Square).

[muppet]

Originally Posted by Gantz

What are you talking about? HK real estate is not even close to being the freest. In fact, real estate market in HK is probably more regulated than anywhere in the United States, considering HK government is the one directing types and sizes of development and literally micro-manages every single building. Private developers are not just allowed to build new housing in Hong Kong at their own free will. In fact, there are no proper land property rights in Hong Kong as technically the Chinese government owns all the land and the developers merely lease it from the government. Hong Kong real estate market makes San Francisco look like libertarian utopia. HK also has a myriad of taxes, fees, and "government rent" that property owners have to pay. I think also HK caps the amount of deductions you can claim when it comes to property repair, these caps do not exist in the US.

Although property is one of the indicators, it's much more the ease of doing business and low taxation/ regulation of those businesses, that makes Hong Kong consistently the world's freest economy.

The whole housing situation in HK (world's least affordable for 12 years straight now) is exacerbated by the price hikes, but assuaged by activism by lobbies within govt and humanist organisations -for example, for all of HK woes as a brutal place to live, it still has an amazing public transport, education and healthcare system. Despite a lack of a safety net, there is a semblance in the public housing (albeit a sign that so many have to rely on it -nearly half in public housing or subsidised, with little change over the decades). In short poverty is entrenched, despite so many attempts to alleviate it, despite the world's best education. Housing is twice as unaffordable as San Francisco:



Anyhoo:

https://www.familyoffices.hk/en/why-...l-control.html

[muppet]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

i think you are confusing the ability to freely conduct business without regulation as being independent of society. its not. as for the tax bargain its no different from other tax havens of various stripes such as texas or delaware or cayman or many others. its not so special anymore. as its subsumed into china hk’s economic relavency is fading as fast its neon lights, media freedom and its basic human rights, they are intertwined. not to say it isnt an important place, but nothing like it once was. to wit: Hong Kong’s economic power has also declined sharply as its GDP relative to Mainland China has fallen from 16 percent in 1997 to 3 percent today.

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/20...orld-city-dims

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...2-271668157058

Sure, HK is losing ground to Shanghai, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, but you do realise HK GDP is always rising right, still? The fact it's GDP has fallen relative to China's is not because HK has fallen five-fold, but China's GDP has risen 18x it's size from 1997. HK's meanwhile has doubled (about a third better performance than NYC for example in the same period).

[dchan]

A. The article is referencing the "Cost of Living Index", and not just real estate prices per SF/SM. These threads always turn into a "city vs city" pissing contest when hard numbers & regional biases are involved.

B. Maybe we should talk about the overall "Cost of Living" in each city, although real estate prices contribute significantly to this index.

C. A large part of HK's real estate costs are due to its desirable semi-autonomous status (economically, not so much politically anymore) as well as its lack of land. Even though the territory has a lot of land for its total population, much of it is from largely unbuildable mountains or steep mountainsides.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by muppet

Sure, HK is losing ground to Shanghai, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, but you do realise HK GDP is always rising right, still? The fact it's GDP has fallen relative to China's is not because HK has fallen five-fold, but China's GDP has risen 18x it's size from 1997. HK's meanwhile has doubled (about a third better performance than NYC for example in the same period).

From what I hear, the Chinese real-estate bubble is long overdue for a serious correction.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by muppet

Sure, HK is losing ground to Shanghai, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, but you do realise HK GDP is always rising right, still? The fact it's GDP has fallen relative to China's is not because HK has fallen five-fold, but China's GDP has risen 18x it's size from 1997. HK's meanwhile has doubled (about a third better performance than NYC for example in the same period).

yes chiner has grown, but hk gbp has been steady $120B-ish for a long time until up to $368B more recently and with covid/inflation. meanwhile, nyc gdp was $1.8T in 2021. so meh, not even close.

[badrunner]

There's beautiful/desirable/heavenly expensive then there is brutal/cruel/dystopian expensive. HK is the latter.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

yes chiner has grown, but hk gbp has been steady $120B-ish for a long time until up to $368B more recently and with covid/inflation. meanwhile, nyc gdp was $1.8T in 2021. so meh, not even close.

No, in terms of growth. HK doubled its GDP between 1997 and today, NYC grew 1.5x (a comparison to show that HK boomed). Seriously, re-read.

My point was HK's economy didn't suffer (5 fold) worse against China as you said, it's share of the economy relative to China's only got smaller because China grew 18-fold. I mean, it's no newsflash these past 3 decades.

Even despite the competition from new gateways (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou), HK's growth trajectory didn't suffer, it still ploughs on every year. The rate actually increased substantially after Handover, absolutely booming since 2001:

In real $:


https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Hon...stant_dollars/

[bossabreezes]

New York is probably the most expensive city in the world, and post covid it is absolutely one of the most overrated as well.

[The New York Lion]

NYC's real estate is valued at more than the entire United Kingdom's GDP.

It has been the de facto world capital for 100 years.

And its future is the brightest of any major city, seeing as it is the cultural and financial capital of the world's only hyperpower.

[bossabreezes]

^^
If New York is the best the world has to offer, well, that's pretty damn bleak.

[TWAK]

^NYC is pretty awesome, especially from an urbanist point of view.
What's with the city vs poster stuff?