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View Poll Results: Should Portage and Main be open for pedestrian traffic?
Yes 113 92.62%
No 9 7.38%
Voters: 122. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1001  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by GreyGarden View Post
This is a pretty cool photo of portage and main from 1966:

https://twitter.com/winnipeg1870s/st...u4ASKDyEPHVAPQ

We’re so unlucky that portage and main was designed to be so wide. It’s kind of amazing to see that giant 8 lane road in 1966.
You can do nice things with a wide street, if you wanted to...

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  #1002  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 9:04 PM
GreyGarden GreyGarden is offline
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We’ll have to do the best with what we’ve got. We can’t magically push the buildings closer together lol.

I think if they widened the sidewalks, planted some more trees and added dedicated transit lanes it could be okay. I don’t love Spadina, but perhaps that’s about as good as we can realistically hope for. I’d be happy with 4 lanes of cars, a lane of parking and two lanes of transit.
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  #1003  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GreyGarden View Post
We’ll have to do the best with what we’ve got. We can’t magically push the buildings closer together lol.

I think if they widened the sidewalks, planted some more trees and added dedicated transit lanes it could be okay. I don’t love Spadina, but perhaps that’s about as good as we can realistically hope for. I’d be happy with 4 lanes of cars, a bike lane and two lanes of transit.
Fixed that for you.
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  #1004  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 9:46 PM
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Thanks^ lol, I knew I was missing something. Though, there is so much space I think bike lanes and a parking lane can both be accommodated. I really don’t like how often in Winnipeg traffic travels right next to the sidewalk. Portage and Main st need some sort of buffer, whether it’s parking or a protected bike lane.
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  #1005  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 5:13 PM
GreyGarden GreyGarden is offline
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Further to my last post on this, I saw this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/...zcl50jQiTReoHg

I would really like to see something like this for Portage Ave and Main Street. I don’t know how that would all come together at the intersection of P&M, but I think something like this would be a good way to help turn Portage and Main Street into desirable streets.
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  #1006  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GreyGarden View Post
Further to my last post on this, I saw this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/...zcl50jQiTReoHg

I would really like to see something like this for Portage Ave and Main Street. I don’t know how that would all come together at the intersection of P&M, but I think something like this would be a good way to help turn Portage and Main Street into desirable streets.

That would be great. Would love to see that at P&M. Just tearing down those ugly barriers would be awesome, but bike lanes and actual cross walks would be great.
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  #1007  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
That would be great. Would love to see that at P&M. Just tearing down those ugly barriers would be awesome, but bike lanes and actual cross walks would be great.
Here we go again, more opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg nonsense!

Really
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  #1008  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 9:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyGarden View Post
Further to my last post on this, I saw this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/...zcl50jQiTReoHg

I would really like to see something like this for Portage Ave and Main Street. I don’t know how that would all come together at the intersection of P&M, but I think something like this would be a good way to help turn Portage and Main Street into desirable streets.
I think that a transit tunnel under P&M would be something to consider. I like the idea of the media transit generally but don't know if that's the spot for it.

In any event, down with the barriers.
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  #1009  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Here we go again, more opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg nonsense!

Really
LOL I don't know about rejuvenate. I never made that claim but those barriers are ugly as hell and it would be a lot better to have them gone.
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  #1010  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
LOL I don't know about rejuvenate. I never made that claim but those barriers are ugly as hell and it would be a lot better to have them gone.
No, no-one who's posted in favour of opening P & M has ever, if my memory serves me correctly, claimed "opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg". It's just a "straw man argument", which we sadly see so often.

For those who may be interested, here's a definition and some examples:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/

The comment by the previous poster fits perfectly among these, IMO.

And I agree, they are "ugly as hell" IMO, and having them gone would have much more positive than negative.
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  #1011  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2023, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
No, no-one who's posted in favour of opening P & M has ever, if my memory serves me correctly, claimed "opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg". It's just a "straw man argument", which we sadly see so often.

For those who may be interested, here's a definition and some examples:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/

The comment by the previous poster fits perfectly among these, IMO.

And I agree, they are "ugly as hell" IMO, and having them gone would have much more positive than negative.
With work from home, closing of all amenities aside from social services and a general disdain for Winnipeg's downtown because of safety issues by mostly everybody and the realization that pretty thing everything that's been tried to lure people downtown has failed think the "open P&M just because" ship has sailed!

Most of you just can't grasp that the only route for many from NE and NW Winnipeg to south Winnipeg is on Main Street through downtown, like it or not. Blame poor planning in the 1950's and 60's for this!

If you live in west Winnipeg or south Winnipeg and never venture north you would be all for the opening as it wouldn't affect you!
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  #1012  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2023, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
With work from home, closing of all amenities aside from social services and a general disdain for Winnipeg's downtown because of safety issues by mostly everybody and the realization that pretty thing everything that's been tried to lure people downtown has failed think the "open P&M just because" ship has sailed!

Most of you just can't grasp that the only route for many from NE and NW Winnipeg to south Winnipeg is on Main Street through downtown, like it or not. Blame poor planning in the 1950's and 60's for this!

If you live in west Winnipeg or south Winnipeg and never venture north you would be all for the opening as it wouldn't affect you!
But the thing is you also kind of make the case for the opening too. Due to decreased traffic volumes because of work from home, maybe opening the intersection won't be the apocalypse that has been prophesied by the doomsday 'keep-the-pedestrians-away-at-all-costs' crowd.
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  #1013  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2023, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GreyGarden View Post
I would really like to see something like this for Portage Ave and Main Street. I don’t know how that would all come together at the intersection of P&M, but I think something like this would be a good way to help turn Portage and Main Street into desirable streets.
The challenge I see with curb side bike lanes at Portage and Main is the significant south to west and east to south traffic flows. That is going to create a high level of conflict between the different modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
If you live in west Winnipeg or south Winnipeg and never venture north you would be all for the opening as it wouldn't affect you!
The main challenges in terms of routes in Winnipeg are north-south and east-west. Southwest-northeast and southeast-northwest are the same sort of issue too. Notably southwest-northwest would be Sage Creek to the airport. These routes are especially problematic when a destination or origin is about a third or more of the travel distance inside the Perimeter as it makes the Perimeter option a lot less viable. I used to dread having to go from The Maples to my relatives in River Park South as there was simply no good route choice. The Maples to the area around Ikea was also absolutely dreadful. That said if Winnipeg ever gets a limited access and fully grade separated inner ring road network built it would definitely address a good chunk of that. CPT sure is nice when you are moving between the limited points it covers right now and having it go from SFX to Oakbank as an 80 km/h route with no stoplights would be a dream. Not that I go to either of those places but that route could easily shave off 50% or more of the time on current routes. Similar to how a proper limited access update to "Truth and Reconciliation Way" (aka Bishop) would serve the south side of the side say from Lorette to Oakbluff.

As for the traffic tunnel under Portage and Main, pushing something from the north-south Main St flow underground is definitely an idea to consider as part of a longer term plan to opening the intersection to pedestrians but that would require some significant cash be spent there.
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  #1014  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2023, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
The challenge I see with curb side bike lanes at Portage and Main is the significant south to west and east to south traffic flows. That is going to create a high level of conflict between the different modes.



The main challenges in terms of routes in Winnipeg are north-south and east-west. Southwest-northeast and southeast-northwest are the same sort of issue too. Notably southwest-northwest would be Sage Creek to the airport. These routes are especially problematic when a destination or origin is about a third or more of the travel distance inside the Perimeter as it makes the Perimeter option a lot less viable. I used to dread having to go from The Maples to my relatives in River Park South as there was simply no good route choice. The Maples to the area around Ikea was also absolutely dreadful. That said if Winnipeg ever gets a limited access and fully grade separated inner ring road network built it would definitely address a good chunk of that. CPT sure is nice when you are moving between the limited points it covers right now and having it go from SFX to Oakbank as an 80 km/h route with no stoplights would be a dream. Not that I go to either of those places but that route could easily shave off 50% or more of the time on current routes. Similar to how a proper limited access update to "Truth and Reconciliation Way" (aka Bishop) would serve the south side of the side say from Lorette to Oakbluff.

As for the traffic tunnel under Portage and Main, pushing something from the north-south Main St flow underground is definitely an idea to consider as part of a longer term plan to opening the intersection to pedestrians but that would require some significant cash be spent there.
I look at the infrastructure put in place in other cities and shake my head at what Winnipeg has done or actually hasn't done! We're supposedly on pace to hit one million in 15-20 years and we still have basically the road system that existed in 1970 when Winnipeg was 500K
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  #1015  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 4:36 AM
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With the shift to electric cars, why not shift automobile infrastructure to be mostly underground? the biggest issue was always fumes in long tunnels. Build underground toll freeways and return more streets to mixed uses.
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  #1016  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 4:36 AM
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I'd rather blow up all the barriers and gaslight the crap out of the citizens at this point.

Pics? Photoshop.

You walked on top of them? No you didn't.

Traffic is gonna be bad? What traffic?

You know what's made from real? Your imagination.

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  #1017  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
I look at the infrastructure put in place in other cities and shake my head at what Winnipeg has done or actually hasn't done! We're supposedly on pace to hit one million in 15-20 years and we still have basically the road system that existed in 1970 when Winnipeg was 500K
Completely agreed, just look at a map of Moncton. How does that tiny city with a metro of 170 000 people afford multiple high speed limited access roadways and Winnipeg has absolutely zero. This city is a joke when it comes to transportation infrastructure of all kinds. A massive joke.
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  #1018  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 3:27 PM
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I've always been on the "open P & M" side, but I've tried to see if the "keep it closed" side had any valid arguments, and reduce the "demonizing" and sarcasm that tends to dominate the discussion.

Would there be traffic chaos? Studies have been done that show there would be delays during peak traffic periods, sometimes in several minutes depending on the direction drivers are taking-likely true

Would there be hazards to pedestrians? I would think any time that pedestrians and auto traffic cross paths there will be an increase in danger of accident-likely true

Too expensive? It would cost millions of dollars to open-true

Do a majority of Winnipeggers oppose opening P & M? Apparently they do-true.

Are these valid points? I would have to give a qualified "in the short term, yes, they are valid"

Of course, the "open" side has counter arguments.

Traffic chaos-some people will find alternate routes/delays will only happen at the busiest times/ the delays are not that long-some fact, some speculation.

Safety-every intersection has the same dangers/there are more dangerous intersections in the city/ drivers and pedestrians have to be careful-hopeful speculation

Expense-the barriers have to be removed for underground repairs anyway- fact

Majority rules?-the majority only represents people who briefly pass through P & M/most people in the immediate area want P & M open-apparently fact

Of these, the "cost" argument seems the most compelling, even overwhelming, in favour of the "open" side. The barriers will apparently have to be removed to make repairs below ground, and some will probably will have to stay down for the proposed BRT routes. There will be traffic delays/re-routing while the construction is going on, and this will most likely result in drivers and busses adopting alternate routes that a number will keep using after P & M is open.

I'd like to add one more thing to the "open" side-vision. An open P & M is a piece (yes just a piece, it's not a magic bullet) of what I hope will eventually become a walkable and hopefully fairly vibrant downtown; one with a strong residential base, safe streets and pleasing street-scapes.

It confuses me that so many of the people opposed to opening P & M also seem to want to see the same thing. I don't understand how keeping P & M closed can do anything but contribute to the downtown conditions that so many of us bemoan in our posts. I would there isn't a contingent of people here who want to see the downtown fail, though sometimes it's difficult for me to come to any other conclusion.
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  #1019  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Most of you just can't grasp that the only route for many from NE and NW Winnipeg to south Winnipeg is on Main Street through downtown, like it or not. Blame poor planning in the 1950's and 60's for this!
And yet every other intersection along this magical route allows pedestrians.
Including two manually activated pedestrian crosswalks on Main Street just a few blocks north.

The whole "sky is falling" argument about re-opening this intersection to pedestrians is complete nonsense.
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  #1020  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 4:16 PM
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I am on the Open side.

I use the intersection everyday. Live in the NE and travel to the SW for work.

It has been closed for 40+ years. The immediate area has seen some amazing developments and change in recent years.

The only legitimate negative is that it will add 30 to 90 seconds to someones commute.

What is the harm in opening it to see if any of the potential benefits that could be possible become a reality. If people are being mowed down and killed on a daily basis then close it again (a joke of course - if this were a fact then pedestrians should not be able to cross the streets anywhere). Lots change in 40+ years. What would a 1-2 year trial hurt.
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