How does your State's Flagship University Compare to Top Private Universities for Job

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by craigs

I don't remember ever working with someone who had a degree from an Arizona university.

While Southern Californians have a hazy awareness of Arizona because it is a nearby state, I don't think anyone considers it a higher ed powerhouse. And AZ is far enough from the northern California population centers that they don't really think about the place at all.

That makes sense.

ASU and UofA are good schools, but nowhere near the academic prestige of most of the UC system. ASU's tried to shed some of its party school image and the ASU Downtown Campus has done wonders for Downtown Phoenix.

I think what happens, or at least what I remember from when I worked at the registrar at Chapman and when I went to Northern Arizona University was that the waitlists at the UCs and Cal States were so long that lots of undergrads would go to an Arizona university for a year or two and then matriculate back to a California university to complete their degree if they opted not to go to a local community college?

Also, I think there was a time when out-of-state tuition for an Arizona university was about the same as it cost to attend most of the UCs or Cal States. That's probably changed since the mid to late 2000s. I'd be surprised if weather (snow and cold) wasn't something that spooked a lot of the undergrads at NAU who came from Southern California, Phoenix and Tucson. Nothing compared to the Midwest or Northeast, but when you've never had to drive in snow and ice before, things get ugly.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

That makes sense.

ASU and UofA are good schools, but nowhere near the academic prestige of most of the UC system. ASU's tried to shed some of its party school image and the ASU Downtown Campus has done wonders for Downtown Phoenix.

I think what happens, or at least what I remember from when I worked at the registrar at Chapman and when I went to Northern Arizona University was that the waitlists at the UCs and Cal States were so long that lots of undergrads would go to an Arizona university for a year or two and then matriculate back to a California university to complete their degree if they opted not to go to a local community college?

Also, I think there was a time when out-of-state tuition for an Arizona university was about the same as it cost to attend most of the UCs or Cal States. That's probably changed since the mid to late 2000s. I'd be surprised if weather (snow and cold) wasn't something that spooked a lot of the undergrads at NAU who came from Southern California, Phoenix and Tucson. Nothing compared to the Midwest or Northeast, but when you've never had to drive in snow and ice before, things get ugly.

^ Makes sense.

On the original question, for Arizona, in my limited field and somewhat limited experience, I don't see much advantage to elite private degrees over state schools. I went out-of-state for graduate school (not elite/private, but higher ranked than Arizona schools), in part because I wasn't sure if I wanted to come back to Arizona. I did come back though, and still live here, and I've often wished I just stayed here for school--would have likely been cheaper and plugged me in better to jobs here.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

That makes sense.

ASU and UofA are good schools, but nowhere near the academic prestige of most of the UC system. ASU's tried to shed some of its party school image and the ASU Downtown Campus has done wonders for Downtown Phoenix.

I think what happens, or at least what I remember from when I worked at the registrar at Chapman and when I went to Northern Arizona University was that the waitlists at the UCs and Cal States were so long that lots of undergrads would go to an Arizona university for a year or two and then matriculate back to a California university to complete their degree if they opted not to go to a local community college?

Also, I think there was a time when out-of-state tuition for an Arizona university was about the same as it cost to attend most of the UCs or Cal States. That's probably changed since the mid to late 2000s. I'd be surprised if weather (snow and cold) wasn't something that spooked a lot of the undergrads at NAU who came from Southern California, Phoenix and Tucson. Nothing compared to the Midwest or Northeast, but when you've never had to drive in snow and ice before, things get ugly.

Yeah back in the day the less academically gifted kids form SoCal would end up at ASU or UCSB, two notorious party schools, or one of the Cal States.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Hell, when I went to Chapman, Cal State Fullerton had a better and bigger library so I'd go up there every once in a while if I absolutely needed something for a paper (early days of the internet and whatnot)

Originally Posted by muertecaza

^ Makes sense.

On the original question, for Arizona, in my limited field and somewhat limited experience, I don't see much advantage to elite private degrees over state schools. I went out-of-state for graduate school (not elite/private, but higher ranked than Arizona schools), in part because I wasn't sure if I wanted to come back to Arizona. I did come back though, and still live here, and I've often wished I just stayed here for school--would have likely been cheaper and plugged me in better to jobs here.

Arizona also doesn't really have any prestigious private schools. There's whatever Grand Canyon University offers and I guess Thunderbird School of Business was private before being taken over by Arizona State?

I'd considered ASU's social work graduate school for a while (in-state tuition and alumni connections since I work in municipal government), and did an online certificate program at Ohio State last summer just to see if I could still handle the rigors of graduate level academia, but it was still nowhere near as intensive as my masters program at NAU and I kind of just wanted to take classes at Ohio State to say I did...

Anyway, Metro Phoenix also has a bunch of satellite/specialty campuses for private universities like Creighton, Midwest and Benedictine

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Arizona also doesn't really have any prestigious private schools. There's whatever Grand Canyon University offers and I guess Thunderbird School of Business was private before being taken over by Arizona State?

Wait, so are you telling me that the University of Phoenix is not a near-ivy school on par with the University of Chicago?

Damn, all those TV commercials sure had me fooled.....

[Buckeye Native 001]

Shit, I completely forgot about that organization

[pj3000]

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

That makes sense.

ASU and UofA are good schools, but nowhere near the academic prestige of most of the UC system. ASU's tried to shed some of its party school image and the ASU Downtown Campus has done wonders for Downtown Phoenix.

I think what happens, or at least what I remember from when I worked at the registrar at Chapman and when I went to Northern Arizona University was that the waitlists at the UCs and Cal States were so long that lots of undergrads would go to an Arizona university for a year or two and then matriculate back to a California university to complete their degree if they opted not to go to a local community college?

Also, I think there was a time when out-of-state tuition for an Arizona university was about the same as it cost to attend most of the UCs or Cal States. That's probably changed since the mid to late 2000s. I'd be surprised if weather (snow and cold) wasn't something that spooked a lot of the undergrads at NAU who came from Southern California, Phoenix and Tucson. Nothing compared to the Midwest or Northeast, but when you've never had to drive in snow and ice before, things get ugly.

A good friend from high school went to Arizona State. I don't know if it was the better-ranked school in AZ, but I know that he didn't choose it because of its rank. His Dad's family lived in Phoenix and he wanted to live nearby. He accomplished that goal when he moved into the dorms--he has never left. We grew up together in the Bay Area, but he has lived most of his life now in Arizona. He's the only person I know who went to college in AZ.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I think up until the last 15 years or so, UofA was the higher academically-ranked school (they're still a member of the AAU for whatever that's worth) but they're about even now.

ASU's current president, Michael Crowe, has been there since 2001 or 2002 and has tried to shed the school's reputation as a party school.

I want to say the California to Arizona and back thing is a recent development, but 2002 still feels to me like it was five years ago...

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Yeah back in the day the less academically gifted kids form SoCal would end up at ASU or UCSB, two notorious party schools, or one of the Cal States.

I remember even when I went to ASU in the Aughts, they were VERY touchy about the party school reputation. Heard a lot about the flawed methodology of Playboy's rankings, which at least in my era was chiefly responsible for the reputation, having listed ASU number 1 on their rankings. Apparently things have fallen off since then, as ASU is slipping down party school rankings. Now the joke is "#1 IN INNOVATION." Which is fine I guess, but to me not as much of a selling point as Playboy's #1 party school.

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Hell, when I went to Chapman, Cal State Fullerton had a better and bigger library so I'd go up there every once in a while if I absolutely needed something for a paper (early days of the internet and whatnot)



Arizona also doesn't really have any prestigious private schools. There's whatever Grand Canyon University offers and I guess Thunderbird School of Business was private before being taken over by Arizona State?

I'd considered ASU's social work graduate school for a while (in-state tuition and alumni connections since I work in municipal government), and did an online certificate program at Ohio State last summer just to see if I could still handle the rigors of graduate level academia, but it was still nowhere near as intensive as my masters program at NAU and I kind of just wanted to take classes at Ohio State to say I did...

Anyway, Metro Phoenix also has a bunch of satellite/specialty campuses for private universities like Creighton, Midwest and Benedictine

Yeah I guess I meant out-of-state private schools, which is how I understood OP. But yeah, no real private universities in AZ. Kind of rough that GCU is our only candidate, with all its sordid history.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by muertecaza

GCU is our only candidate, with all its sordid history.

Say more about its sordid history.

I only know GCU from the TV commercials, so I always assumed it was just another one of those for-profit online degree mills like University of Phoenix, only with an overtly "christian" bent.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Do people really attempt to ingratiate themselves with employers by saying "Hey, we went to the same college?" I mean - do it successfully.

It just boggles my mind that anyone would give a crap about that, unless you're talking about a very small employer that doesn't have a dedicated HR department to do that crap for them.

It's about where businesses bother to send recruiting teams I think. But also if smaller firms have a number of grads from a particular school, they certainly recruit harder there (this is a most notably a financial firm thing--I doubt it applies so much to manufacturers and so on although within firms, if the engineering department has a bunch of Cal Tech guys, for example, they may tend to call someone at that school and seek out its best current graduating seniors.)

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Arizona also doesn't really have any prestigious private schools.

All I know is that I dropped my subscription to the Arizona Daily Star in Tucson because the only news it ever seemed to carry was about Arizona Wildcats basketball and it seems like if you didn't play basketball you were a cipher at that school and in Southern AZ generally.

Frankly, I think sports have become a cancer on American higher education but this probably isn't the place to rant on that. It's just that beyond its campus, at least, nobody at U. of A. seemed to think much about academics.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Say more about its sordid history.

I only know GCU from the TV commercials, so I always assumed it was just another one of those for-profit online degree mills like University of Phoenix, only with an overtly "christian" bent.

Speaking of which--"online degree mills"--can someone address the phenomenon that is Southern New Hampshire University?

I want to believe that a school in New Hampshire is legit but their advertising certainly is aggressive and seems targeted at low income, somewhat clueless folks like U. of Phoenix.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

It's about where businesses bother to send recruiting teams I think.

Right. A lot of the investment banks and law firms recruit from a relatively small number of schools. It doesn't mean you can't get hired from outside that network, but your odds are lower.

For example, looking at the Wachtell Lipton (fancy Wall Street law firm) website, they formally recruit from seven schools:

https://www.wlrk.com/careers/summer-associates/

Columbia Law School Monday, August 2, 2021
Harvard Law School Monday, August 9, 2021
NYU Law School Thursday, August 5, 2021
Stanford Law School Thursday, August 12, 2021
University of Chicago Law School Wednesday, August 11, 2021
University of Pennsylvania Law School Monday, August 2, 2021
Yale Law School Friday, August 6, 2021

[pj3000]

In certain circles, a degree from this OUTSTANDING institution will trump any hoity-toity Ivy League schoolin'

[plinko]

Originally Posted by craigs

A good friend from high school went to Arizona State. I don't know if it was the better-ranked school in AZ, but I know that he didn't choose it because of its rank. His Dad's family lived in Phoenix and he wanted to live nearby. He accomplished that goal when he moved into the dorms--he has never left. We grew up together in the Bay Area, but he has lived most of his life now in Arizona. He's the only person I know who went to college in AZ.

Lest you forget...I did too! Chosen because I was poor and my dad living there got me in-state tuition. I wasn't willing to take on loans (a lesson for all the kiddies griping about loan forgiveness these days...I have little sympathy...)

My degree from Arizona State was enough to get me in the door to get a job locally after I graduated. I had also done an internship at a firm in Sacramento during my time at ASU who hired me because one of the partners had gone there in the early 80s. This also turned into my 2nd job out of school.

After that (4 years in) it made absolutely no difference where I went to school (I also never went to grad school) and advancement and jobs were purely based on work.

Now when I interview people, I only really care where they went to school if they are in that first 2-4 year period. And even then, it's more about what they produced than the name. Generally for what we do, a Cal Poly SLO grad in architecture is much more ready for our way of working than somebody from GSD at Harvard. But it also very much depends on the person. My partners went to UMiami (engineering) and UCSB (art) so they couldn't care less where somebody went to architecture school.

[Pedestrian]

^^Lest people have too much fun bashing AZ, you may not know that even a mediocre "party school' can be tops in something. In the case of U. of AZ, the something is optics.

The University of Arizona College of Optical Sciences, considered the largest institute for optics education in the United States, is dedicated to research and education in optics with an emphasis on optical engineering. The college offers more than 90 courses in optical sciences, and a Bachelor of Science degree in Optical Sciences and Engineering, Masters and Doctoral degree programs in Optical Sciences, as well as a dual master's degree in Optical Sciences and Business Administration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...tical_Sciences

The school has several Nobel laureates on its faculty and is heavily involved in the US space and defense programs in matters of optical telescopes. If that spy satellite can count the stars on a Russian general's shoulders in Ukraine, the telescope's lenses may have been designed at the U. of AZ.

Example: The Webb Space Telescope.

The Webb Team
NASA leads an international partnership that includes the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency. NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center is managing the Webb Telescope project, and the Space Telescope Science Institute is responsible for science and mission operations, as well as ground station development.

As the prime contractor to develop the James Webb Space Telescope, Northrop Grumman designed and built the deployable sunshield, provided the spacecraft and integrated the total system. The observatory subsystems were developed by a Northrop Grumman-led team with vast experience in developing space-based observatories.

Ball Aerospace: Optical design, mirrors, wavefront sensing, and control design and algorithms
Harris Corporation: Optical telescope integration and testing
University of Arizona: Near-Infrared Camera
European Space Agency (ESA): Near-Infrared Spectrograph
Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), ESA: Mid-Infrared Instrument
Canadian Space Agency (CSA): Fine Guidance Sensor with Tunable Filter Module

https://www.northropgrumman.com/spac...ace-telescope/

I suspect a lot of this came about because Southern AZ is also a great place for observatories and, as a result, Tucson has a "dark skies" ordinance, restricting nighttime outdoor lighting.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Say more about its sordid history.

I only know GCU from the TV commercials, so I always assumed it was just another one of those for-profit online degree mills like University of Phoenix, only with an overtly "christian" bent.

Your assumption isn't that far off.

They went from small rural Baptist college --> small Phoenix university --> bankrupt university from 1947 to 2004. Then in 2004 they were bought by investors, and from there went from private for-profit --> publicly traded for-profit from 2005 - 2015. During this time, they were sued by the Feds for paying enrollment counselors per student in violation of federal rules. Since 2015, they've had a stop-start effort to return to not-for-profit status. The effort was initially rejected by the Higher Learning Commission, which accredits colleges in AZ. HLC apparently changed their policies, and now GCU is officially transitioning to non-profit status (for purposes of HLC accreditation), but the Department of Education still considers them for-profit for now. The transition is controversial because instead of operating the university itself for-profit, they instead spun off a servicing company, Grand Canyon Education, Inc., to which GCU pays ~$750m a year for support services, and which shares executive leadership with GCU (the University president is also the CEO of GCE). GCE has also been accused of potentially committing securities fraud via this arrangement. Most recently, GCU issued $1.2b in junk bonds to refinance the last of their obligations to GCE to finish the conversion to non-profit status. But their status is still in flux, as seen recently in their failed lawsuit to prove their non-profit status for purposes of COVID relief.

So now they're sort of in a weird place, where they are kind of a Christian diploma mill--they have 90k online students (though of course a lot of state universities have sizeable online enrollment too). But they are also investing a lot in their physical campus, and have ~25k in-person students. They also have D1 sports, including basketball, in the WAC. They were locally notable for employing Suns fan favorite Dan Majerle as their coach for several years, and when they fired him a couple years ago he sued them too. They're trying to market themselves as a private, Christian university, and seem to be trying to carve themselves out as a legit competitor to the state universities. We'll see how they do.

Couple other links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_University

https://ministrywatch.com/grand-cany...-to-nonprofit/

[Steely Dan]

^ oh damn, shade city.

Generally good life advice: don't enroll in universities that incessantly advertise themselves on TV.