privatising crown corps.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by drew

Perhaps you can clarify what it is exactly that subsidizes the lack of a provincial sales tax in Alberta?

I comes from letting the private sector sell Alberta's natural resources instead of a government run monopoly.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

yea and watch all those jbs disapear and our power go through the roof

I pay ENMAX and my bill is only $60/month for a 2200 sq ft house. It seems like my bill hasnt gone through the roof.

Also ENMAX seems to employ a LOT of people in Alberta. Unless a private system in Manitoba would be run by an army of robots, I think most jobs would be safe.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by drew

If you reply back with "good business environment" or some other vague economic drivel that leaves out oil and gas, I will figure out a way to reach across the internet and smack you...

You have no idea how much this statement brightened up my day

[saskdave]

Now I don't want to enter into the Manitoba vs Alberta "chat" here but as I am from Sask. the holy grail for Crown Corps, I thought I would throw in a couple of thoughts:

-Manitoba Hydro does NOT take money from tax payers, all its revenue comes from its rate payers (customers) and it in fact pays a dividend to the Manitoba Govt that helps pay for Health Care, Education, etc. So, as a "taxpayer" you can't complain, as a rate payer you can....
-The cost of energy in Canada has nothing to do with gov't vs private. It all comes down to Geography. BC, Manitoba and Quebec have the cheapest cost to generate power because they all have major hydro which is the cheapest way to create electricity.
-Alberta and Sask. have thermal (coal) which is cheap but not as cheap as hydro so power costs more.
-Manitoba Hydro sells its excess power to the USA and uses the money to subsidize power rates in Manitoba - keeping your power cheaper than it should be. No private firm would do that.

-Any large corp that wants to be competitive in today's world helps pay for parking (it will end up being a taxable benefit) and covering the bus pass is a nice touch as well.....

To me neither the private or gov't model is perfect....it all comes down to who is running the place....

2 cents from Saskdave

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by Prairie Guy

Whether you like it or not, I will state my point of view like everyone else.

Great, Prairie Guy, please do...however...keep in mind that everyone else will state their points of view whether you like it or not...

Here's an observation for you...you have made three posts in this thread today but have you actually stated your point of view on anything related to the actual topic under discussion?

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

I see nothing wrong with Manitoba Hydro subsidizing parking and bus passes especially if it was part of a union negotiation. Those types of subsidies happen all the time across Canada for government related employees so why should Manitoba Hydro be any different.

And private business usually provides free parking for many of their downtown office workers at least for those in management positions.

Small price to pay to encourage and keep a large work force in the heart of downtown. The spin offs of having the employees remain downtown will be huge.

[DowntownWpg]

What the...!?!

I didn't create this thread!

I did write the original post, but it was in the Hydro Building thread.

[vid]

Thunder Bay is considering converting its non-profit hydro distributer to a for-profit company, and using the profits to fund city projects. It could cut our projected tax increase in half. I certainly wouldn't want to lose that. We also make $20,000,000 from TBayTel, which serves most of Northwestern Ontario and Algoma. Without it, taxes would be about 5% higher.

If you do privatize, at least actually privatize it. Ontario's failed privatization plan for Ontario Hydro just created five crown corporations, each more incompetent than the last.

[Stephen LaRose]

Originally Posted by h0twired

The difference is that private companies do not take all of the taxpayers with them, only those that chose to invest in them or work for them.

At any rate. Manitobans bitching about Hydro employees getting subsidized parking is funny while every Manitoban is currently getting subsidized power from Hydro.

Talk about sucking on the teat of government...

Where have you been? If capitalism is the be-all and end-all, why are the major American banks and auto companies hauling a$$ to Washington asking for free money?

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Stephen LaRose

Where have you been? If capitalism is the be-all and end-all, why are the major American banks and auto companies hauling a$$ to Washington asking for free money?

Nice straw man.

[biguc]

/\Cut him some slack. People who think wearing a Che tshirt makes a bold statement don't know about fallacies.

Originally Posted by drew

Perhaps you can clarify what it is exactly that subsidizes the lack of a provincial sales tax in Alberta?

Are you being facetious? How do you subsidize nothing? There isn't a redirection of funds... It's just not a subsidy. This point is absurd.

[drew]

^ I liked it better when you couldn't remember your password.

My point is that it's hard to criticize Manitobans for having "subsidized' power rates coming from a province like Alberta where royalties from oil sands, gas projects, etc. fund the Alberta's budget to such a degree that a sales tax is not required to balance the books.

Directly or indirectly, facetious or not facetious, smartass or not smartass, the wealth from oil and gas have allowed Alberta the ability not have a sales tax.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by h0twired

MPI is another perfect candidate to be privatized.

The Manitoba government really needs to get out of the insurance and hydro businesses and start actually governing instead.

Governments make piss poor business managers. Leave business to the private sector.

I'll start with the disclaimer that i'm totally impartial towards crown corps..

That said, based on my limited understanding of how monopolies work it would seem that it would be impossible for MPI to achieve such low rates for car insurance without the absence of competition.

One way of thinking about this is in simple economies of scale.

For example, when a firm's average-total-cost curve continually declines, the firm has what is called a natural monopoly.

In this case, when production of a service such as car insurance is divided among more firms, each firm produces less, and average total cost rises. As a result, a single firm such as MPI can produce any given amount of insurance at the smallest cost.

This coupled with things such as our no-fault legislation keeps Manitoba rates for car insurance relatively low when compared to other jurisdictions.

[Only The Lonely..]

The privatization lie: Water utility critics using scare tactic

By TOM BRODBECK | Winnipeg Sun - November 20, 2008

It didn't take long for the big-government/union crowd to launch their misinformation campaign about the city's proposal to create a stand-alone water utility.

Critics of the plan are already trotting out buzz words like "privatization" to try to scare people.

The thinking is, if they can frighten enough people by lying to them that the city is trying to privatize its sewer and water services, there might be enough backlash to kill the plan.

They know they can't win the debate on pure facts and information. So they have to lie by claiming falsely that Winnipeg is looking to privatize its water services.

It's pure nonsense.

OWNED BY CITY

What the city is proposing has nothing to do with privatization. No private company would take over our water supply and taxpayers would still own their water treatment plants, sewer pipes and sewage treatment centres.

None of that would change.

Privatization is when government sells a public asset.

The Manitoba Telephone System, for example, was privatized in 1997. The former Crown corporation was sold on the open market through an initial share offering. Government no longer has anything to do with MTS, other than to buy telecommunication services from them.

Petro Canada and CN Rail were privatized. They were sold. Government can't get them back unless they buy back all the shares.

That's privatization.

If the city decided to sell Winnipeg Transit to a private company, that would be privatization. But that's not what we're talking about here.

What the city is proposing is to set up an independent water utility to replace the existing department of water and waste. It would not be a private company.

The organization would still be owned by the city and the unionized staff who work for water and waste now would work for the utility. That wouldn't change.

The difference is the organization would be run by a board of directors who wouldn't have to go cap-in-hand to city council every time they wanted to make a decision.

Their finances would be separate from the city's annual budgets and the money they collect would not go into city hall's general revenues.

But rather than debate those issues on their merits and ask intelligent questions about the proposal, the big-government/union crowd make stuff up, like "privatization."

I'm quite sure Mayor Sam Katz and city councillors are prepared to engage in a rational debate on the issue by discussing facts. What they can't do, however, is defend against lies, other than to try to expose the liars.

So why are the big-government/union types against this proposal?

The big-government crowd, for ideological reasons, always believes government can do things better than anybody else. So any move away from government is a threat to them.

The union types don't like it because it may erode their bargaining power.

Unions like to maximize the size of their bargaining units to have as much leverage as possible.

If a separate bargaining unit is created for the proposed utility, it would weaken the union's position.

And they don't like that.

Too bad.

If this plan makes sense for taxpayers, they should do it. If it doesn't, then we shouldn't do it. That's what we should be focusing on.

[rrskylar]

^ Got to love the way Filmon and his gang of thieves dumped millions into MTS (at taxpayer expense) before it was sold then undervalued the shares, let their friends know about it and all walked like thieves!

[slide_rule]

^at the risk of offending some right wing libertarians (see another province's section, containing a few forumers who butcher adam smith's theories), there are many pitfalls to privatizing an essential service natural monopoly like hydro.

hydro is not like a car company or dairy. the infrastructure of power companies is inherently suited for a monopoly operator. building a competing infrastructure grid just does not make sense.

the one overriding goal of any private company is to deliver the highest profit possible. in other sectors, competition forces companies to slash prices and/or improve their product, thus lowering their profit margin but benefiting the end user. with competition, a theoretical equilibrium between profit and product quality will be reached. with a monopoly (e.g. the motor vehicle office), the corporation has a captive market, and has little to no incentive to improve their product/lower their prices. on a more serious note, these problems are often seen in poorer countries with weak/corrupt governments. there, private corporations can effectively buy up utilities and hold the citizens hostage.

that said, privatization does not have to be a negative thing. ideally, monopolies (regardless of the ownership) would need strict regulation. the corporation operating the monopoly would need to conform to minimum standards of service and product cost. thus a natural monopoly like manitoba hydro should ideally be regulated.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by drew

^ I liked it better when you couldn't remember your password.

My point is that it's hard to criticize Manitobans for having "subsidized' power rates coming from a province like Alberta where royalties from oil sands, gas projects, etc. fund the Alberta's budget to such a degree that a sales tax is not required to balance the books.

Directly or indirectly, facetious or not facetious, smartass or not smartass, the wealth from oil and gas have allowed Alberta the ability not have a sales tax.

Yeah, I wasn't too choked about it because I actually kind of liked not feeling obligated to make posts like that one.

That said, the flow of money between public coffers and the energy sector is reverse in Alberta and Manitoba. If Alberta's wealth came from another industry, you wouldn't make this point.

[drew]

^ fair enough.

I'll end by saying that of the two "real" jobs I have held in my life thus far, both have been with private companies, and both have completly subsidized their empolyee's parking. I really don't think it is all that unheard of, or that much of an issue to get all worked up over.

I will say that none of the companies I have worked for offered a transit subsidy, so that is pretty cool of Hydro. I hope the employee's take advantage of it. A friend of mine will be working downtown for Hydro, lives in WAY south St. Vital and will be taking the bus...

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by DowntownWpg

Manitoba Public Insurance, another crown corporation with downtown offices, does not subsidize for parking or transit.

I thought they had subscribed to WT's "eco-pass" years ago.

[flatlander]

^^They tried and backed off due to public uproar. For some reason its ok to subsidize parking, but not transit.