CHICAGO | City Casino

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

• This will NOT improve property values, every study shows this. A couple local businesses will have increased revenue though, of course..

Links?

Interestingly, this report from an economic commission from the New Orleans area, from just a few months ago, cites multiple real examples of property value appreciation from US casinos starting on page 1:
https://sttammanycorp.org/wp-content...er_Report1.pdf

And they also say this:

CSG has examined property value appreciation rates throughout the United States in markets where new casinos have been introduced during the past decade, and for each market there has been neighborhood home value appreciation since casino opening, generally at roughly the same rate as nearby neighborhoods and towns, sometimes slightly greater and sometimes slightly smaller. There is no solid pattern to demonstrate any correlation between the introduction of a casino and residential property values, by size of town, median value of homes, or scale of casino facility.

..

We recognize that this is contradictory to a widely cited study prepared in 2013 in Massachusetts by the National Association of REALTORS®, warning of assessed residential property value declines by as much as 4.6% with the introduction of a casino to a community, but that impact has not been realized; the opposite occurred, and the host casino community has experienced valuation growth of over 21%, significantly greater than the regional average.

We note that any business or industry that is a major engine for an economy can have an impact on real estate prices. This occurred in Nevada during the Great Recession, and in Atlantic City, New Jersey when new competition from New York, Maryland and Pennsylvania cannibalized the market (while combined with the Great Recession), resulting in casino closures, high unemployment and ultimately substantial foreclosures. However, this can happen in any market from the demise of any backbone industry, such as has happened in auto manufacturing and steel towns. But we note that the P2E resort is not being promoted as being the future backbone of the Slidell or St. Tammany economy, so cautionary tales need to be carefully viewed in context.

We note also that if a casino is not the backbone of an economy, some other industry might be, and could be what has driven some of the aforementioned markets (host or neighboring community) to experience strong growth, or to experience stagnation. We cannot, however, discern a correlation between being a casino host community and there being a negative impact on home valuations.

Property value can also be easily conflated with quality of life. For some, living proximate to a casino resort could mean a job opportunity that cuts commuting time down considerably or raises income, and the ability to find entertainment nearby via boat or bike may be appealing. For others, living proximate to a casino resort can be unappealing due to issues ranging from traffic to lighting or the blocking of views – the data would suggest from a residential real estate standpoint that these pros and cons balance each other out.

In other words, it could go either way. I'm not gung ho about a casino for the record. I think it's OK and there could be better uses but I'm not as doom and gloom as others about it. Depends on how they pull it off and a lot of other factors.

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

• As noted, the thugs will be similar to those that loiter and harass people all day between the 7-11's on State (between Snickers & Rossi's basically)

Link?

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Wow. So much dishonesty. So much classism. Extreme levels of stupidity. Good amount of hidden racism thrown in for fun. Absolutely pathetic.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Casinos in reality:

The gambling crowd: richer and older than average. Typically, they’re bored retirees spending their pensions or capital gains.

The entertainment crowd: 30 year olds getting drunk and going to shows.

The older patrons can be at risk of being targeted for crime due to the money they carry - which is why I think casinos should be in wealthier areas with good prospects for pedestrian traffic, but away from major roads and subway stations.

Casinos that are built in poor or vacant areas simply reflect their neighborhoods.

But if the people of River North can deal with Hubbard and Rush St. just fine, the casino is not going to be much different.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Casinos in reality:

The gambling crowd: richer and older than average. Typically, they’re bored retirees spending their pensions or capital gains.

The entertainment crowd: 30 year olds getting drunk and going to shows.

The older patrons can be at risk of being targeted for crime due to the money they carry - which is why I think casinos should be in wealthier areas with good prospects for pedestrian traffic, but away from major roads and subway stations.

Casinos that are built in poor or vacant areas simply reflect their neighborhoods.

But if the people of River North can deal with Hubbard and Rush St. just fine, the casino is not going to be much different.

I'm curious how this area will be after the introduction of 3600+ new units right in the immediate area by Onni.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by marothisu

I'm curious how this area will be after the introduction of 3600+ new units right in the immediate area by Onni.

I’m thinking Steeterville with riverwalk vibes. High-rise curated tourist area.

If I were a casino operator, I would have been looking at City Winery and Tiny Tapp thinking there’s clearly demand for more riverwalk venues-and especially after midnight hours!

Since none of the casinos can generate returns from gambling, the focus on dining and retail and entertainment would increase.

I can’t see a Las Vegas style party scene since it’s so clearly centered around Wrigleyville and Hubbard now, and no reason to shift to a less accessible location.

The State St. issues have more to do with poor CTA Red Line security than anything else.

[rivernorthlurker]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Casinos in reality:

The gambling crowd: richer and older than average. Typically, they’re bored retirees spending their pensions or capital gains.

The entertainment crowd: 30 year olds getting drunk and going to shows.

The older patrons can be at risk of being targeted for crime due to the money they carry - which is why I think casinos should be in wealthier areas with good prospects for pedestrian traffic, but away from major roads and subway stations.

Casinos that are built in poor or vacant areas simply reflect their neighborhoods.

But if the people of River North can deal with Hubbard and Rush St. just fine, the casino is not going to be much different.

The casino is rather conveniently isolated by geographic barriers with the North Branch to the East and train tracks + The Kennedy to the West so I think some of those effects and concerns will be mitigated. To what extent people will be walking up Halsted to/from Fulton or down Chicago Ave we'll have to wait see.

[jpIllInoIs]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Casinos in reality:

The gambling crowd: richer and older than average. Typically, they’re bored retirees spending their pensions or capital gains.

The entertainment crowd: 30 year olds getting drunk and going to shows.

The older patrons can be at risk of being targeted for crime due to the money they carry - which is why I think casinos should be in wealthier areas with good prospects for pedestrian traffic, but away from major roads and subway stations.

Casinos that are built in poor or vacant areas simply reflect their neighborhoods.

But if the people of River North can deal with Hubbard and Rush St. just fine, the casino is not going to be much different.

Can you provide any data to back these statements? Is this from the casino proposals on demographic expectations?

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs

Can you provide any data to back these statements? Is this from the casino proposals on demographic expectations?

No estimates for these specific Chicago proposals, but there is national industry data. No real reason to expect that Chicago will be dramatically different from other markets.

Millennials are a huge cohort, so you have to expect some trial and error with casinos both before and after Covid-19, says Cory Morowitz, of Morowitz Gaming Advisors, LLC in Galloway, New Jersey. Again, don’t expect riches. “Since 80 percent of gaming revenue is typically driven by 20 percent of customers, I do not think this cohort is a significant driver of gaming revenue at this time,” he says.

But if they have some money to spend, millennials would rather spend it on food and beverage, clubs, and rooms in destination markets, Morowitz says. “They spend about 25 percent less as a cohort than both Generation X—the generation preceding millennials—and baby boomers on entertainment purchases (per U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics).”

Much less, Lupo says. Millennials will spend 25 percent of what a baby boomer shells out.

“The spend per player continues to be much higher with an older demographic.” Lupo says.

https://ggbmagazine.com/article/dropping-demographics/

More than 70 percent of slot revenues are coming from players over the age of 55. Players between the ages of 60 and 70 represent the largest share of slot revenue for the casino. By contrast, players between the ages of 20 and 30 represent the smallest share of revenue, even lower than that from players between the ages of 80 and 90. Those are not encouraging statistics with regard to desired players.

https://ggbnews.com/article/understa...on-of-players/

[BorisMolotov]

I can totally see that for slots, at least. They're a huge time sink and relatively antisocial. What mid-20 year old something wants to go to a casino with friends and sit by themselves for 2 hours, maybe winning a few bucks?

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by BorisMolotov

I can totally see that for slots, at least. They're a huge time sink and relatively antisocial. What mid-20 year old something wants to go to a casino with friends and sit by themselves for 2 hours, maybe winning a few bucks?

You'd be surprised. Where I grew up there were casinos on the Indian Reservations. When we turned 18 so many people went at that age. Surprisingly a lot of them were content with sitting next to each other for slots and video poker. Obviously most people playing slots are like 60+ years old but there's still a social aspect to slots at least that I saw when I was that age (I almost exclusively played Blackjack though).

As far as revenue goes, yeah. When I was younger, a $10 bet on blackjack was a medium sized deal to me. $25 was big time. Nowadays I have no issues putting down $25, $50, etc bets.


On another note....will they have a sports book? I know Bally's has multiple sports TV channels now. If they have it then I can ser that being very popular.

[Chi-Sky21]

$5 was my max then and i still look for the $5 tables now (get some interesting company at those tables) unless of course for poker! ! Only bet bigger with my friends, keep our money amongst friends.

[pip]

Oh Chicago, the major news, the major efforts and the hopes for a panacea.

[ardecila]

Bally’s will 100% have a sportsbook. That’s the answer to “what are millennials/genZs gonna do at this casino”. I’m sure there will be plenty of slots for the geezers, and a few table games just because. Then a whole lot of non-gambling entertainment.

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Links?


Link?

Take 5 seconds and Google search for one? The reddit thread on it has plenty too, as does Nextdoor. The only social platform I've seen that does not want to admit it is this one.

As I've said several times, the city is in debt, we need a casino, there's plenty of demand. I will go a bit with my friends too. Of the 3 locations, the River North one makes the least sense though.

Casinos are a vice though, they generally exploit the poor. This is not some crazy revelation. I wish it was not true, but it follows basic logic. For instance, the lottery literally started as an idiot tax for those bad at math...

https://stoppredatorygambling.org/wp...o-Research.pdf

https://www.reddit.com/r/chicago/com...roperty_value/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-even-suicide/

https://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2014/01/001.html

https://www.timesunion.com/opinion/a...or-4860312.php

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Bally’s will 100% have a sportsbook. That’s the answer to “what are millennials/genZs gonna do at this casino”. I’m sure there will be plenty of slots for the geezers, and a few table games just because. Then a whole lot of non-gambling entertainment.

The sportsbook will be the biggest draw for 'light' gamblers. Lots of my friends bet on sports casually (with their disposable income). It adds to the fun of it and is mostly for bragging rights. I wonder how much juice they will charge though?

The non-gambling entertainment is what I'd be the most excited for. I went to the Windy City Smokeout Fest when it was there and the sound clearly bounced off the condos across the street (noted at the last meeting too). I would be interested on how they plan to fix that with the new amphitheater (maybe angle it differently and/or add lots of deadening panels?). Bought tickets to 4 shows at Northerly Island this summer ($25 promo FTW), it's a short Divvy ride, but this would be even closer!

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Take 5 seconds and Google search for one? The reddit thread on it has plenty too, as does Nextdoor. The only social platform I've seen that does not want to admit it is this one.

You know that when you claim something, and someone asks for sources - the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Considering you cite "every study" that means you know exactly where to get them. I'm not sure you understand how this works.

As I've said several times, the city is in debt, we need a casino, there's plenty of demand. I will go a bit with my friends too. Of the 3 locations, the River North one makes the least sense though.

None of them make sense, which is probably why the mayor was so adamant about it having a major entertainment/dining aspect to it. I'm not sure why this makes any less sense than the others TBH.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by marothisu

You know that when you claim something, and someone asks for sources - the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Considering you cite "every study" that means you know exactly where to get them. I'm not sure you understand how this works.

The most rigorous existing study is neutral on the matter.

Yeah, when you build casinos in poor neighborhoods, the patrons do tend to be poor.

And of course the poor suffer the most from casino gambling. People who outspend their means also suffer when they spend too much on alcohol, cigarettes, fashion shopping, cars, credit cards, etc.

But the industry profits are coming from the upper income patrons


https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...l1999-1-1.html

None of them make sense, which is probably why the mayor was so adamant about it having a major entertainment/dining aspect to it. I'm not sure why this makes any less sense than the others TBH.

There’s no perfect location for a large Chicago casino, but the perfect locations are already occupied by other things.

It’s hardly a surprise that the city went for the location with the least legal conflicts. No major railroad rights, no McPier leases, no TIFs.

Just the routine land zoning, and the free market doing its thing.

[bnk]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Bally’s will 100% have a sportsbook. That’s the answer to “what are millennials/genZs gonna do at this casino”. I’m sure there will be plenty of slots for the geezers, and a few table games just because. Then a whole lot of non-gambling entertainment.

Yeah having a local and not on line sports book will be huge and really draw in the younger crowd that is not going to buy in on a craps table with a 1K buy in esp if he does not already know how to play table games like that or texas hold'em


To play real table games in this day and age you have to be willing to put up a K and be able to lose it and not be a problem.


A sportsbook is easy. Bet on a few games, have a drink at the bar.

Put a few bucks into l low cost parlay with a big potential payout with only less than 20 bucks not including your own person football bets and it makes the day a fun one.



With a real sports book



It even includes kids that don't have the money to lose but are willing to be there for the experience. Plus they get to hang out at a cool place,


These kids can be groomed later for real betting in a decade. But Bring in a dozen bros, stay at or close to the place and they will spend more on food and drinks locally than they would otherwise at a place from outside of Chicagoland.




Think of Midwest collage kids meeting up to have a good weekend that would have probably not even tried visiting. Its a big boost even if they to not gamble a lot. Its the spill over into the local area even down to the uber driver or a hotel or air BnB. Shit like that adds up if you multiply it by a factor.


These kids are not looking for the same experince in east Chicago, Gary or Hammond.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

The sportsbook will be the biggest draw for 'light' gamblers. Lots of my friends bet on sports casually (with their disposable income). It adds to the fun of it and is mostly for bragging rights. I wonder how much juice they will charge though?

The non-gambling entertainment is what I'd be the most excited for. I went to the Windy City Smokeout Fest when it was there and the sound clearly bounced off the condos across the street (noted at the last meeting too). I would be interested on how they plan to fix that with the new amphitheater (maybe angle it differently and/or add lots of deadening panels?). Bought tickets to 4 shows at Northerly Island this summer ($25 promo FTW), it's a short Divvy ride, but this would be even closer!

This is the "amphitheater". Just a handful of bench seating set up for lounging and people-watching. It's part of the park so it won't be ticketed events probably. Maybe the occasional show or busking by local musicians, but un-amplified. Or a Movie In The Park. Definitely not Alpine Valley or even Ravinia lol.

I guess that could change but Maurice Cox clearly sees this as just a quiet amenity in the park, not a serious performance venue. There will be a 3000-seat indoor venue for concerts, though. Not sure what kind of talent they will get, especially since everyone is trying to open more venues in Chicago right now (Salt Shed, Uptown Theater, Ramova, etc). Hopefully they get more exciting acts than the washed-up guys who play the suburban casinos.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This is the "amphitheater". Just a handful of bench seating set up for lounging and people-watching. It's part of the park so it won't be ticketed events probably. Maybe the occasional show or busking by local musicians, but un-amplified. Or a Movie In The Park. Definitely not Alpine Valley or even Ravinia lol.

I guess that could change but Maurice Cox clearly sees this as just a quiet amenity in the park, not a serious performance venue. There will be a 3000-seat indoor venue for concerts, though. Not sure what kind of talent they will get, especially since everyone is trying to open more venues in Chicago right now (Salt Shed, Uptown Theater, Ramova, etc). Hopefully they get more exciting acts than the washed-up guys who play the suburban casinos.

I wish there wasn't the 3k indoor venue for concerts. Perhaps there is a market for it, but I somehow see this as eating into the potential of the Congress, Park West, Chicago Theatre, and lowering the chance of the Uptown getting renovated. Now, if it was a bunch of dance clubs I think that would be great. It's close enough to the RN clubs that they all act as a club district that enhances the whole area, rather than siphon off from one another.

[ardecila]

It's possible that Bally's might target a residency model for tourists. Chicago is certainly large enough and cosmopolitan enough that you might persuade a top talent to move here for a few months or even years long residency. Obviously that's common in Vegas, but Springsteen and Billy Joel have done it in NY.