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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
The thing is "essential character" is a fluid subject. I bet you would feel a lot more at home in modern day Lhasa than in 1820s Toronto.
If by Lhasa you mean the Western expat part, i.e. a few days in a backpacker hostel hoisting beers with Brits and Germans, then sure. But my concern is with the rates and amounts of change. I don't think it's right to hold people in disdain for not being happy about sudden shifts in demographics.

This doesn't apply to bigger cities, of course. Obviously the rate of flux is going to be higher and inevitable.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 10:52 PM
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To me, the big issue is where one particular ethnicity/race completely dominates all others.
Whites? You want to limit white immigration??

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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I think it is vastly more healthy for the cities and immigrants themselves where you have 8 groups with 5% of the population as opposed to 2 with 20% each.
why not 10 groups with 5%? Or is that too dangerous lol
There is no optimal population composition in terms of ethnicity or race, either in one direction or the other.
I agree, but it seems some here don't!
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 11:04 PM
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Would could possibly be wrong about not welcoming massive changes to the essential character of your neighbourhood or community? Your notion that one should simply "evolve" past that is incredibly sinister.
On one hand it's hard to imagine going to Krakow and suggesting it is too Polish, or going to Osaka and suggesting it is too Japanese... but Canada is not really the same. We have adopted policies that embrace diversity.

I'm not saying it's wrong to want your community to remain the same, but there is a legitimate basis for taking the opposite viewpoint.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 11:14 PM
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Grabbed this off the Vancouver demographics wiki page and its getting a bit dated now but this is what the pan-ethnic breakdown looked like in metro vancouver in 2016. Compared to other metro areas in Canada, the east asian and south asian populations are rather significant.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 11:30 PM
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That's not quite true – Nunavik is next to Nunatsiavut, and it's part of Quebec.
Yes, you're right. I forgot about Nunavik. Nunatsiavut feels different in that it's the most southerly Inuit region, and somewhat less remote, and I guess I confused that distinction with being nominally part of the "south." But of course Nunavik is part of Quebec!
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 11:39 PM
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People seem to forget that culture is not ethnicity. The qualities that give a city its essence are generational, fluid and durable. In terms of race and ethnicity, New York is absolutely not the same city it was in the 1970s. But culturally it isn't that different. I know quite a few people who were raised in New York City and they are of Chinese, Jamaican, Egyptian, Italian, etc. descent... and all similarly "New York" in their outlook and mannerisms. Similarly, I have friends raised in Vancouver, all from different backgrounds — Persian, Chinese, Korean, Pakistani, anglo WASP — and despite having different mother tongues and ethnic origins, they all share a certain fundamental Vancouverness that is quite distinctive.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
People seem to forget that culture is not ethnicity. The qualities that give a city its essence are generational, fluid and durable. In terms of race and ethnicity, New York is absolutely not the same city it was in the 1970s. But culturally it isn't that different. I know quite a few people who were raised in New York City and they are of Chinese, Jamaican, Egyptian, Italian, etc. descent... and all similarly "New York" in their outlook and mannerisms. Similarly, I have friends raised in Vancouver, all from different backgrounds — Persian, Chinese, Korean, Pakistani, anglo WASP — and despite having different mother tongues and ethnic origins, they all share a certain fundamental Vancouverness that is quite distinctive.
This is something that the woketarian left either doesn't know or doesn't acknowledge due to how it conflicts with its essentialist view of race and ethnicity (which is, erm, essentially racist).

They approve of race as an initial marker for cultural difference when it comes to assigning virtue, entitlements and victim status, but don't if it gets used in the same way by long-time residents of neighbourhoods who are apprehensive about dramatic demographic changes.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
If by Lhasa you mean the Western expat part, i.e. a few days in a backpacker hostel hoisting beers with Brits and Germans, then sure. But my concern is with the rates and amounts of change. I don't think it's right to hold people in disdain for not being happy about sudden shifts in demographics.

This doesn't apply to bigger cities, of course. Obviously the rate of flux is going to be higher and inevitable.
I mean that you'd probably have more in common with a modern Han Chinese or Tibetan today than someone of your own ethnicity from 4 or 5 generations back
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 12:10 AM
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I mean that you'd probably have more in common with a modern Han Chinese or Tibetan today than someone of your own ethnicity from 4 or 5 generations back
Yeah, probably. Save for certain philosophical reference points in the form of first principles, I guess.

Actually, this could be an interesting exercise. How far back would you have to go to where you'd have less in common with a Han Chinese person in China than a Torontonian in 1890? I'm thinking anything Mao. You'd have to get to the 1990s before your average person in Beijing seemed closer in commonality than 19th century Toronto.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 1:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
The thing is "essential character" is a fluid subject. I bet you would feel a lot more at home in modern day Lhasa than in 1820s Toronto.
I never thought about it this way before, but you're absolutely right.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 1:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
That's because of the Hasidic enclave of Kiryas Tosh. You can see it on Street View, it's a strange place:

https://goo.gl/maps/qHiYx9p4hUt9VbvP6
Yes, I know.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
That's because of the Hasidic enclave of Kiryas Tosh. You can see it on Street View, it's a strange place:

https://goo.gl/maps/qHiYx9p4hUt9VbvP6
Oy Vey, that road is pot-holed beyond belief.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 2:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
People seem to forget that culture is not ethnicity. The qualities that give a city its essence are generational, fluid and durable. In terms of race and ethnicity, New York is absolutely not the same city it was in the 1970s. But culturally it isn't that different. I know quite a few people who were raised in New York City and they are of Chinese, Jamaican, Egyptian, Italian, etc. descent... and all similarly "New York" in their outlook and mannerisms. Similarly, I have friends raised in Vancouver, all from different backgrounds — Persian, Chinese, Korean, Pakistani, anglo WASP — and despite having different mother tongues and ethnic origins, they all share a certain fundamental Vancouverness that is quite distinctive.
This also speaks to one of my favourite themes: that culture is more acquired than it is innate.

I've mentioned before that I have neighbours who are African who are more "French Canadian" in terms of contemporary French Canadian culture than some of my own siblings.

That said, the continuity of a culture that absorbs newcomers is not a perfectly seamless or linear thing.

The newcomers do transform the place they come to, and add their own touch to the place's overall character.

This is actually a positive thing and if paced properly, most people don't really notice and few complain.

I won't gloss over the conflicts that have occurred there but generally speaking NYC and the NE US is a pretty good example of this type of smooth transition.

21st century NYC isn't Cornelius Vanderbilt's NYC (and even he was descended from Dutch immigrants) but it's still the modern incarnation of NYC: a clear point on an obvious historical continuum as opposed to a place that's left the continuum altogether and hitched its wagon to something else (think Dantzig-to-Gdansk, or even what happened to Miami in the last 50 years).
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 2:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
What could possibly be wrong about not welcoming massive changes to the essential character of your neighbourhood or community? Your notion that one should simply "evolve" past that is incredibly sinister.

That is precisely what the Communist Party of China wants Tibetans to do as they shift Han Chinese to Tibet in order to change the demographics and prevent Tibetan independence movements.
A lot of the glee associated with the decline of the power of"white Anglos" or even "white Euros" for lack of a better term, is related to turnabout-is-fair-play, ie you did it to indigenous people, so it's only fair that people from countries X, Y and Z do it to you.

History is history and we can't change what happened, but if we think that a whole bunch of people moving to a place and snubbing their noses (or worse) at the people already there, taking control of things due to numerical superiority, and changing the way of a place more or less unilaterally, is a bad thing (because it's ''colonialism"), then it seems like what some people have in mind isn't a recipe for a future of milk and honey.

This isn't even a question of preferring having white cashiers at the grocery or a fondness for the dour, reserved British demeanour.

It's about what's best for social peace.

The imposition of different ways on an geographically established group, against their will, almost always leads to strife and division.

BTW this is not to say that the majority of newcomers to Canada actually want this. I think that most of them don't.

Ironically I think that most people who get a hard-on thinking of the exotic ways of newcomers taking root and being predominant in Canada aren't actually newcomers themselves, but Canadians of longer establishment who fetishize such things as an escape from the banality of their own colourless culture.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 2:56 AM
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This also speaks to one of my favourite themes: that culture is more acquired than it is innate.
Well, it couldn't be any other way, right? Because the very meaning of culture is socially accquired, learned stuff, which by definition can't be purely innate.

I'm still surprised at the fact that people express great amounts of shock that adopted kids from abroad (e.g. some Canadian or American who's a Ethiopian or Korean adoptee etc.) who've never been raised in anything but western culture, surprise, suprise, are fully western.

For those who think otherwise, do they really expect, given anything that's ever been known about human nature, think if you were to leave babies unattended in the woods to be raised by wolves, as if like in the Jungle Book, that they would suddenly start expressing, unsupervised, the cultural attributes of their absentee parents? So, that a French baby could start singing the Marseillaise without being taught the words, and a Japanese baby would somehow know how to make sushi for lunch by himself?
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 3:49 AM
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StatCan's qualifiers and categories for ethnic communities needs a serious do-over. Some of the categories and answers overlap over and over again.
The numbers seem off in Nova Scotia, you'll see on the census people checking off 'Irish', 'Scottish' or plain 'Canadian'. I'd rather just see it as 'Celtic' as a lot of people are a mixture of Irish/Scottish (myself included). Same with Black Nova Scotian. There are at least a couple thousand 'native' Black people in southern New Brunswick that fit the same historical ethnic background as Black Nova Scotian; say, 'Black Atlanticáns'? Seems more inclusive.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 3:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
A lot of the glee associated with the decline of the power of"white Anglos" or even "white Euros" for lack of a better term, is related to turnabout-is-fair-play, ie you did it to indigenous people, so it's only fair that people from countries X, Y and Z do it to you.
This is definitely a controversial observation but don't you think that Old Stock Canadians (i.e. European Canadians) see what happened to First Nations people are recognize the same pattern in modernized Canada; like looking into a mirror? We all are aware of what happened to First Nations people after migration demographics rapidly flipped against them... do you think the same pattern would repeat in the 21st century as immigration explodes and the country doesn't maintain ethnic/cultural continuity or is Canada 'globalized' enough that none of that even matters?
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2021, 3:56 AM
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Of course culture is acquired. Who thinks otherwise? Enculturation is the process of acquiring one's ingroup culture(s) through socialization processes*. Acculturation is acquiring another or other (outgroup) culture(s). It is absolutely not innate (heritable).

*typically through culture agents like parents, education, peers, media, religious groups, etc.
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