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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 8:28 PM
Docere Docere is online now
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White Working Class population by city/metro

What is the WWC population approximately in various US cities/metros. Whites without bachelor's degrees are an imperfect but still reasonable proxy to measure it, I think.
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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 8:36 PM
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There are a lot of white dudes in Chicagoland without degrees who work in the building trades and many of them make pretty solid money due to strong unions. Not "Porsche money" mind you (though many of their pick-ups aren't too much less expensive these days), but still comfortably above what we normally think of as "working class".

I think we'd need actual racial and income data to really get a clear focus on it.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 8:50 PM
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I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

I have respect for them because they get up at 4am every morning to make their fresh bread and feed us.
They work hard and deserve the money they make.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 9:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
There are a lot of white dudes in Chicagoland without degrees who work in the building trades and many of them make pretty solid money due to strong unions. Not "Porsche money" mind you, but still comfortably above what we normally think of as "working class".

I think we'd need actual racial and income data to really get a clear focus on it.
The unions in northern cities have been a great asset to working class whites. Unfortunately, they have a history or discrimination against the working black man.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/9/...s-trade-unions
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

I have respect for them because they get up at 4am every morning to make their fresh bread and feed us.
They work hard and deserve the money they make.

Who makes more? Plumbers or professors? The gap is really quite narrow. Meanwhile the professor (I am one) had to spend upwards of a dozen years pursing undergraduate, master's and then PhD degrees (and often, a stint or three doing a post-doc), so those potential income-earning years (the prime of one's life) are financially, very lean. There are fewer and fewer tenure-track positions in Academia (the only positions that pay decent salaries) and many in Academia now work by cobbling together potentially unrenewable contracts, often from multiple institutions. Plus, when you finally graduate, you have a wall of student debt yet you are in your thirties, when it is time to marry, start a family, etc.
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

I have respect for them because they get up at 4am every morning to make their fresh bread and feed us.
They work hard and deserve the money they make.
I'm sure the baker inherited the real estate in a desirable urban location and there's some overcomplicated permit and zoning regulations that keep competitors out.

Because I worked in a bakery briefly when I was 19 and made $7.25 an hour and the person who did the morning shift was a mentally disabled woman. Of course we weren't making fine French pastries and selling them to tourists either.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.
Money laundering.
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  #8  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 9:32 PM
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I think it's a good and priceless feeling to feel somewhat educated in some field. You feel a bit less ignorant, kinda good at something... But you should never boast about it and have respect for all those who don't know about you do, because if they focused and worked on it, they could learn and maybe beat you at it.

Like I once said, only ignorant people think they know about everything.
Truth is we don't really know about shit yet.

I mentioned my baker... I simply like the fact that everyone has some temper for some kind of occupation or trade.
That's what we call a 'vocation'. I believe everybody should follow this thing by abstracting the standard requirements from society around them.

For example these days, too many kids want to be pop stars, like rap singers or Hollywood actors, for fame and money.
That's laughable. Honestly, most rap songs or Hollywood movies are kinda pitiful these days and I think there is a whole bunch of more interesting things to do for kids.

There's one sure thing. No room for laziness. If anybody acts like a lazy parasite, you kick their butts or cure them anyhow.
Laziness is some kind of depression that requires some treatment.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
There are a lot of white dudes in Chicagoland without degrees who work in the building trades and many of them make pretty solid money due to strong unions. Not "Porsche money" mind you (though many of their pick-ups aren't too much less expensive these days), but still comfortably above what we normally think of as "working class".

I think we'd need actual racial and income data to really get a clear focus on it.
Yeah they probably make more than I do as an academic physicist (but obviously I'm not doing it for the money)

As for the original question, is working class defined by income or "blue collar" work?
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 12:28 AM
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The unions in northern cities have been a great asset to working class whites. Unfortunately, they have a history or discrimination against the working black man.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/9/...s-trade-unions
And today, xenophobia. It seems many people believe, all over the political spectrum, than the average Chinese must be 100x poorer than the Americans in order to grant US working class lavish lives.

It seems the discourse pushing for a more egalitarian society only applies inside the borders.
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 12:34 AM
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In Miami-Dade its very very tiny, maybe 2% of the total population maybe (if that). Most of the white population is educated and well off, working class white non-Hispanics largely fled for Broward and Palm Beach counties (or the Carolinas). You'll find a few hold outs out in the Redlands. Even finding someone who speaks any English for any working class jobs (any house repair, plumbing...etc) is tough.
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 12:55 AM
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Money laundering.
Nah, as llamaorama said, the best hypothesis for the wealth is inheriting the fully-paid-off-a-long-time-ago inner Paris real estate where that bakery has operated for generations.

Some industries are famous for typically having most of the gains from the real estate.

I had an acquaintance who specialized in buying gas stations. He operated them too (at approximately zero profit), but the real end game was the land and locations.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 1:29 AM
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Who makes more? Plumbers or professors? The gap is really quite narrow. Meanwhile the professor (I am one) had to spend upwards of a dozen years pursing undergraduate, master's and then PhD degrees (and often, a stint or three doing a post-doc), so those potential income-earning years (the prime of one's life) are financially, very lean. There are fewer and fewer tenure-track positions in Academia (the only positions that pay decent salaries) and many in Academia now work by cobbling together potentially unrenewable contracts, often from multiple institutions. Plus, when you finally graduate, you have a wall of student debt yet you are in your thirties, when it is time to marry, start a family, etc.
Forget about tenure. There are fewer and fewer full time positions. Which means (in the US) no health benefits. Or steady paycheck. Higher education is getting greedy; not exactly hurting for money but cheapening out on salaries and opting for adjunct professors rather than full time. I knew several people who left the profession because of this.
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  #14  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 2:36 AM
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Could have spared myself a lot of grief by just asking how many whites have college degrees (or don't). Oh well.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 2:43 AM
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Too bad the US Census website is such a disorganized mess. I'll have a look again later and try to pull some numbers.

Among 2 million+ metros, I'm guessing Pittsburgh is one of the most "WWC" - i.e. where noncollege whites make up a very large proportion, probably a majority of the population. At the bottom I guess would be DC, the Bay Area, and L.A. - the latter not because it has an especially educated white population but just because it has a low NHW population share.
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  #16  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 2:50 AM
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Could have spared myself a lot of grief by just asking how many whites have college degrees (or don't). Oh well.
maybe, but in America "working class" usually implies more of an economic status than an educational one, ie. people on the rung of the economic ladder smooshed between "middle class" and "poor". There are lots of middle class people in America who don't have degrees.

Maybe the term you were looking for was "blue collar"?
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 3:22 AM
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There may be two kids of WWC metropolitan typologies. The union trades-type population and the more lower income white population. The former really only exist in places where unions have some degree of power, however. Common in Michigan, not so much in Alabama.
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  #18  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 3:59 AM
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College graduates (NHW)

Atlanta 46.1%
Boston 53.3%
Chicago 47.6%
Dallas 43.7%
Denver 53.9%
Detroit 34.7%
Houston 44.3%
Los Angeles 51.7%
Minneapolis 46.1%
New York 53.1%
Philadelphia 44.7%
Phoenix 38.5%
Pittsburgh 36.3%
San Francisco 62.6%
Seattle 45.6%
Washington 63.7%
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  #19  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 4:49 AM
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If you are looking for the cities with the greatest number of NHW workers, just look for the cities with the greatest number of NHW residents. Where cheap labor exists (especially the immigrant and non-resident aliens) NHWs have moved on to other, higher paid, professions as trades and labor jobs are filled by the lowest bidders.

Years of low wage physically demanding work are required to get a foothold in the trades, many of which take years of training and apprenticeship. And even then, much of the higher wages often require overtime, the jobs may be seasonal and subject to layoffs during recessions, and by design are career limiting. Higher wages often come through business ownership or management, not in the trade itself. Careers are also often limited by the toll it takes on the body, and the loss of physical ability as one ages. And, not everyone has the capability to learn or perform the skills required in the trades. People predisposed to academic learning may not be suitable candidates for some trades. And to enter some trades "who you know" may matter. In some places, only fluent Spanish speakers may get in.

Starting wages are often at or below what one can get by working at a MacDonalds these days. Hours are not guaranteed. Some skilled trade jobs may become obsolete as technology changes.

As far as the wealthy baker example goes, looking at the BLS site for one city (Cleveland) showed the median wage for a baker to be 29k. If the baker was wealthy, it wasn't the baking that made them that way, perhaps it was business acumen, management of other bakers, or maybe marriage into wealth. Likely for many (most) other trades, the money comes when you start your own business, not from the trade itself. And not everyone will/can start their own business - that is the exception.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2022, 3:39 PM
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I think we're conflating bakers and small business owners.

Bakers (the dudes actually baking the bread, whether in France or U.S.) probably make modest salaries. The small business owners managing the operation may have real wealth. Yeah, some of these guys are baking too, in smaller operations, but their wealth isn't derived from the baking labor.

But an owner of a central Paris bakery probably has significant legacy wealth, especially if the real estate is owned and paid off.
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