PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

KOP is a mistake and shouldn't exist. KOP Rail is a mistake and shouldn't be built.

I’ve lived in Philly for about 6 years. Moved here for college, left and came back again a few years ago. I’ve never been to KOP mall. It just seems like too much of a hassle to try and get there from the city. What am I going to do there besides shop and go to an overrated/over priced chain restaurant?

If anything, it’s starting to make more sense for high end retailers to choose Rittenhouse. It has an established and growing wealthy population, tourists, office commuters and people that come in from the burbs to spend a day in the city (shopping, going to restaurants, sightseeing, seeing a show etc). There really isn’t a reason to go to KOP unless you live close by or you’re REALLY into designer brands.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

I don't know. As someone who grew up here and spent all my life here, I honestly don't think culturally there's a much of an appetite for these kinds of brands anyway whether they can afford it or not, and I'd rather see the corridor continue to shift to something else. I don't think people here are as self-centered on appearance or projecting with masstige big brands vs affordable functional clothing or boutique clothing. People in Rittenhouse are actually too wealthy for masstige, and I think most.young people would prefer something more unique. More of the target demo likely do live in the suburbs and go to KoP, so personally I don't think we need them at all. I like the shift toward the e-commerce-gone-brick-and-mortar like Brooklinen, Allbirds etc. or even more dining/experience.

It's fair that many people on here think we should have them, but I've never heard the average person who could afford it wish they were here.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I don't know. As someone who grew up here and spent all my life here, I honestly don't think culturally there's a much of an appetite for these kinds of brands anyway whether they can afford it or not, and I'd rather see the corridor continue to shift to something else. I don't think people here are as self-centered on appearance or projecting with masstige big brands vs affordable functional clothing or boutique clothing. People in Rittenhouse are actually too wealthy for masstige, and I think most.young people would prefer something more unique. More of the target demo likely do live in the suburbs and go to KoP, so personally I don't think we need them at all. I like the shift toward the e-commerce-gone-brick-and-mortar like Brooklinen, Allbirds etc. or even more dining/experience.

It's fair that many people on here think we should have them, but I've never heard the average person who could afford it wish they were here.

I get what you’re saying but the city has changed quite a bit over the last 10-15 years particularly around Rittenhouse. There’s a lot of new people coming in. And as Summers point out it’s only a matter of time before retailers start catering to new demand.

High end retailers also add to the quality and ambiance of the streetscape. They tend to create visually attractive facades and displays. I can’t afford them but I appreciate their appeal to aesthetics.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I don't know. As someone who grew up here and spent all my life here, I honestly don't think culturally there's a much of an appetite for these kinds of brands anyway whether they can afford it or not, and I'd rather see the corridor continue to shift to something else. I don't think people here are as self-centered on appearance or projecting with masstige big brands vs affordable functional clothing or boutique clothing. More of those people likely do live in the suburbs and likely go to KoP and personally I don't think we need them at all. I like the shift toward the e-commerce-gone-brick-and-mortar like Brooklinen, Allbirds etc. or even more dining/experience.

I agree. Women in Philly wear trendy clothes but it's not in a flashy self-centered type of way where people are like "oh shit, that's a <insert luxury brand>". Part of it is the industries that exist here are different too. Obviously multiple times less media jobs than NYC. Less of the pure director-level wall street types trying to flaunt their wealth.

I grew up in New Hope around a lot of people who moved to cities all around the country. Most to either NYC or Philadelphia. This is purely anecdotal, but I have no problem proclaiming the people I know who came to Philly are more down to earth and less attracted to that insta-celeb type mentality.

I get what you’re saying but the city has changed quite a bit over the last 10-15 years particularly around Rittenhouse. There’s a lot of new people coming in. And as Summers point out it’s only a matter of time before retailers start catering to new demand.

High end retailers also add to the quality and ambiance of the streetscape. They tend to create visually attractive facades and displays. I can’t afford them but I appreciate their appeal to aesthetics.

I think this fails to realize that Rittenhouse has always been a wealthy neighborhood. In fact, over the last 10-15 years, I would imagine the big demographic change is the neighborhood has gotten significantly younger and, what comes along with youth, is less wealthy per capita. The very wealthy have their old-school places like Boyds and Sophy Curson.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I think this fails to realize that Rittenhouse has always been a wealthy neighborhood. In fact, over the last 10-15 years, I would imagine the big demographic change is the neighborhood has gotten significantly younger and, what comes along with youth, is less wealthy per capita. The very wealthy have their old-school places like Boyds and Sophy Curson.

So those young less wealthy people can afford multi million dollar condos at The Laurel, Arthaus, $3,000/month luxury apartments or renovated/new townhouses in Rittenhouse?

Most reports are showing CC is growing both in wealth and population. There’s people moving here from NYC, DC and all over frankly.

I think you guys are getting hung up on the flashy/pretentious folks. Not everyone that shops at Burberry or Gucci is obsessed with Instagram. I’m not saying that Walnut can or should be the next Rodeo Drive but as others have said the demand is likely there and these stores would add to the visual appeal of the streetscape.

Not to mention, most high end retail corridors don’t necessarily cater to the residents who live within a few blocks from it. They’re also counting on office commuters, tourists, people that specifically come into the city to shop/make a day of the city.

[Holt]

Speaking of Walnut.. I know this question is asked a lot, but any movement on the 3 properties that burned down?

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

So those young less wealthy people can afford multi million dollar condos at The Laurel, Arthaus, $3,000/month luxury apartments or renovated/new townhouses in Rittenhouse?

Well I already noted that I believe the lack of international tourism is a real knock on the center city retail scene. I do agree the new developments will pull the retail upwards but it's going to take some time for those condos to lease up fully. The first series of articles on the sales of the first units indicated that people were moving from other near by condo buildings. But no doubt, it will add more wealth to the neighborhood.

Most reports are showing CC is growing both in wealth and population. There’s people moving here from NYC, DC and all over frankly.

But are people buying townhouses in Northern Liberties by the hundreds or condos in Center City? There's a reason why Frankford Ave. retail seems unstoppable these days. I think Center City could offer more luxury brands, but unless something drastically changes, I don't see much change from stores just staying in KOP.

There's also the whole aspect that Rittenhouse isn't the only concentrated area of wealth in Center City. Covid has beat it up a bit, but there's a fair amount of really nice boutiques in the Old City / Society Hill area too. I have no idea, but do Society Hill residents go over to Rittenhouse to shop?

I think Center City needs more diversity in terms of retail offerings compared to just more clothing stores. An example of a store I would like to see is a new Micro Center to buy electronics and computer parts.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Holt

Speaking of Walnut.. I know this question is asked a lot, but any movement on the 3 properties that burned down?

I haven't heard of anything in a while. Hopefully some new news soon

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

But are people buying townhouses in Northern Liberties by the hundreds or condos in Center City? There's a reason why Frankford Ave. retail seems unstoppable these days. I think Center City could offer more luxury brands, but unless something drastically changes, I don't see much change from stores just staying in KOP.

There's also the whole aspect that Rittenhouse isn't the only concentrated area of wealth in Center City. Covid has beat it up a bit, but there's a far amount of really nice boutiques in the Old City / Society Hill area too. I have no idea, but Society Hill residents go over to Rittenhouse to shop?

I think Center City needs more diversity in terms of retail offerings compared to just purely more clothing stores. An example of a store I would like to see is a new Micro Center to buy electronics and computer parts.

Not sure what you mean exactly but yes people are buying condos in CC and NL by the hundreds. The Laurel alone has 66 condominiums and 187 luxury apartments. Apparently, half are already sold/leased. Piazza Alta prices in NL span between 2-12k/month. Again, it’s not necessity about needing more clothing stores. I frankly don’t shop that much but at the very least I think Walnut could be on par with say Newbury St at this point. Again, luxury retailers tend to create very visually appealing facades and displays. I’m not saying all of CC should be like this by any stretch but it would be nice to have at least a block of it. NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF, DC all have theirs at this point. If people want Philly to be a “world class city” or whatever then this is part of it.

I’m not sure where you’re going with the Micro Center but sure why not

[summersm343]

KOP vs. Center City Retail...

Guys, it's really not a matter of either or. Philadelphia and it's surrounding metropolitan region is ABSOLUTELY large enough to have two luxury retail centers. We should have a luxury mall in the suburbs and luxury retail downtown.... every major metropolitan area in the United States has this and can support this.

If it wasn't for King of Prussia, most of these retailers would have NO presence at all in the Philadelphia region at the moment. We should be happy that we do have King of Prussia honestly. Look at stores like Fendi, Bottega Veneta, Jimmy Choo, Van Cleef & Arpels, Christian Louboutin, Hermes, Dolce & Gabbana.... these luxury retailers have VERY FEW stores across the United States. The fact that the Philadelphia region has them is a huge plus for the area and the fact that King of Prussia Mall has them is a huge sign of the mall's desirability amongst luxury retailers.

We should not be rooting for Center City retail success at the expense of King of Prussia. We should be rooting for both Center City retail success and King of Prussia retail success. I think then we will truly have a very strong region when it comes to retail. Plus, I don't think the retailers I listed above will come to Center City ANYTIME SOON at all. We need to first lower crime and clean up the city and then create a luxury retail corridor to attract the likes of Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Shinola, Burberry, Cole Haan, Stuart Weitzman, Tory Burch, Longchamp, etc. etc.... only once we attract those luxury retailers to a luxury retail corridor can we start to think bigger.

I think Skyhigh's idea of a luxury retail corridor from 19th to 21st Street along Walnut Street is a brilliant idea.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

KOP vs. Center City Retail...

Guys, it's really not a matter of either or. Philadelphia and it's surrounding metropolitan region is ABSOLUTELY large enough to have two luxury retail centers. We should have a luxury mall in the suburbs and luxury retail downtown.... every major metropolitan area in the United States has this and can support this.

If it wasn't for King of Prussia, most of these retailers would have NO presence at all in the Philadelphia region at the moment. We should be happy that we do have King of Prussia honestly. Look at stores like Fendi, Bottega Veneta, Jimmy Choo, Van Cleef & Arpels, Christian Louboutin, Hermes, Dolce & Gabbana.... these luxury retailers have VERY FEW stores across the United States. The fact that the Philadelphia region has them is a huge plus for the area and the fact that King of Prussia Mall has them is a huge sign of the mall's desirability amongst luxury retailers.

We should not be rooting for Center City retail success at the expense of King of Prussia. We should be rooting for both Center City retail success and King of Prussia retail success. I think then we will truly have a very strong region when it comes to retail. Plus, I don't think the retailers I listed above will come to Center City ANYTIME SOON at all. We need to first lower crime and clean up the city and then create a luxury retail corridor to attract the likes of Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Shinola, Burberry, Cole Haan, Stuart Weitzman, Tory Burch, Longchamp, etc. etc.... only once we attract those luxury retailers to a luxury retail corridor can we start to think bigger.

I think Skyhigh's idea of a luxury retail corridor from 19th to 21st Street along Walnut Street is a brilliant idea.

I’d be completely content with just having one block of the second tier retailers you mentioned lol. While crime most certainly needs to be dealt with, it is what it is at this point. However, I think some progress has been made in terms of QOL issues as of very recently.

Getting foot traffic back post Covid and improvements with the dirt bike situation has definitely helped in terms of my perception of the city. Hopefully, others are starting to see that. However, I read somewhere that the city’s largest retail lender said that a concern among their clientele is crime. However, most cities are dealing with that right now but to some degree they’ve been able to keep and attract luxury brands. SF seems to have had the worst of QOL issues and while they’ve struggled, they still have their Saks and Hermes lol.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Not sure what you mean exactly but yes people are buying condos in CC and NL by the hundreds. The Laurel alone has 66 condominiums and 187 luxury apartments. Apparently, half are already sold/leased. Piazza Alta prices in NL span between 2-12k/month. Again, it’s not necessity about needing more clothing stores. I frankly don’t shop that much but at the very least I think Walnut could be on par with say Newbury St at this point.

The Backbay is way more exclusive and expensive than Rittenhouse. They also get a lot more international visitors.

When I made the NL/Frankford Ave. comparison, I was implying that the population and incomes of that area are skyrocketing hence blocks and blocks of new retail. Rittenhouse's baseline was already a lot higher. The new condo buildings are cool, but not earth-changing.

I’m not sure where you’re going with the Micro Center but sure why not

I was implying that instead niche luxury retailers that cater to a small group of people, there is a wide variety of stores, like a top-notch computer store, I rather see open in Center City instead.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

The Backbay is way more exclusive and expensive than Rittenhouse. They also get a lot more international visitors.

When I made the NL/Frankford Ave. comparison, I was implying that the population and incomes of that area are skyrocketing hence blocks and blocks of new retail. Rittenhouse's baseline was already a lot higher. The new condo buildings are cool, but not earth-changing.



I was implying that instead niche luxury retailers that cater to a small group of people, there is a wide variety of stores, like a top-notch computer store, I rather see open in Center City instead.

Oh I don’t dunno. I lived in the Back Bay for a few months. In terms of retail, yes - and that’s my point. In terms of restaurants, Rittenhouse is way more upscale. I think you have a point about international visitors particularly for SF, NYC, Miami etc. For Boston, I’m not entirely sure…

I don’t think the new condo towers and developments in Rittenhouse are something to dismiss as having no economic impact on the area whatsoever.

I’m not entirely sure what point you’re trying to make exactly but basically what I’m saying is there’s obviously demand for luxury retailers in the region and they tend to aesthetically enhance and diversify the streetscape and foster future high end quality development. And that’s what this forum is all about isn’t it?

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Boku

The Sixers’ ambitions for Market Street go well beyond building a sports arena

Love it! Also love the drawings, the comparisons to Barclays Center and TD Garden and this other little tidbit:

Yet, for all the possible pitfalls, this project could also be Market Street’s salvation. Despite spending $420 million to de-suburbanize the former Gallery shopping mall, its owners, Macerich and PREIT, never succeeded in bringing back shoppers to what had once been Philadelphia’s main retail corridor. The pandemic and the retail apocalypse didn’t make things easy, and now the cavernous mall feels eerily depopulated.

But once the Sixers lopped off a third of the building for the arena, the mall’s operators could concentrate the existing stores, movie theater and bowling alley into a more compact space. That could finally energize the mall.

Article:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20220808.html

[summersm343]

At University City Townhomes, officers dismantle encampment as residents protest
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20220808.html

Photos from clearing of University City Townhomes encampment in West Philadelphia
https://www.inquirer.com/photo/unive...-20220808.html

[mcgrath618]

Some info:
I am hearing that there is a large mixed-use tower soon to be proposed for a large surface lot in Center City, though not one that I think has ever been discussed on here. Can't give a height but the developer expects to start construction Q2 next year. If someone can guess which parking lot I will be more than happy to share

There is also a 15 story high rise coming to the Temple area, but not for awhile. Existing structure has to be demoed first. Apparently the building to-be-demolished in question is an open secret with Temple students, but I am not sure if it is public knowledge.

[Frontst17]

Having grown up near KOP the money that comes through those doors is stupid. We would go to the mall just to look at cars. And judging by the probably dozen different languages you’ll hear going through the mall, those cars are rentals from international travelers. They have (or used to have) private shuttle service from the airport and currency exchange booths. Those people at the time definitely weren’t staying in KOP they were definitely staying and spending money in the city. That being said even with the additions of MORE upscale stores, the experience at the mall isn’t as upscale as it used to feel where you would get wrong looks going into the wrong store. I think momentum has shifted back toward a desire to walk and shop in the city. There’s plenty of money in the burbs to support KOP there should definitely be more upscale stores in the city the region can absolutely support both and they can feed off each other

[McBane]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Some info:
I am hearing that there is a large mixed-use tower soon to be proposed for a large surface lot in Center City, though not one that I think has ever been discussed on here. Can't give a height but the developer expects to start construction Q2 next year. If someone can guess which parking lot I will be more than happy to share

If you have the inside scoop, I would have to guess it's somewhere along a SEPTA rail/subway stop. Currently a parking lot. In Center City. That we haven't discussed. The only lot I can think of that checks all of these boxes is Broad and Race. But not confident because this doesn't seem like a strong location for anything other than a hotel and you said mixed use.

2100 Market already has a proposal for it as does 1300 Market. Penn Plaza next to the Comcast Center is not a parking lot. 8th and Market and the PECO lot have been discussed ad nauseam.

I'm stumped.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by McBane

If you have the inside scoop, I would have to guess it's somewhere along a SEPTA rail/subway stop. Currently a parking lot. In Center City. That we haven't discussed. The only lot I can think of that checks all of these boxes is Broad and Race. But not confident because this doesn't seem like a strong location for anything other than a hotel and you said mixed use.

2100 Market already has a proposal for it as does 1300 Market. Penn Plaza next to the Comcast Center is not a parking lot. 8th and Market and the PECO lot have been discussed ad nauseam.

I'm stumped.

Sound logic, but in this case the development is just within a certain distance of a SEPTA stop and needs to coordinate any of its construction with the Authority to make sure it doesn't interfere with running trains.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Some info:
I am hearing that there is a large mixed-use tower soon to be proposed for a large surface lot in Center City, though not one that I think has ever been discussed on here. Can't give a height but the developer expects to start construction Q2 next year. If someone can guess which parking lot I will be more than happy to share

There is also a 15 story high rise coming to the Temple area, but not for awhile. Existing structure has to be demoed first. Apparently the building to-be-demolished in question is an open secret with Temple students, but I am not sure if it is public knowledge.

If the one in Center City is 21st and Ludlow parking lot, then I heard the same rumor. Is it that one?

Hmmm.. haven't heard the Temple one, but I would guess it's the block at Broad and Oxford??? Temple has been trying to develop this block since I was a Temple student LOL.