Phoenix Development News (3)

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Arquitect

Structurally, it almost certainly would be an issue. A parking structure, such as it is mentioned above, spreads its load around a greater surface area. The Pin, would in fact be a pin of a lot of stress in one single point, I doubt the tunnel's support was engineered to take amount of weight in a single spot. Especially if you advocate to make it taller, since that would only add more weight to the structure.

The Pin won't be changing locations to Hance. That was idea thrown around this forum, but the people trying to make it happen are really set at having it at Heritage Square.

I still think the best option for the Pin would be Civic Space Park. It would be a great spot for an attraction of this type and could be a marker for ASU's downtown campus. Added height would also be a plus at this location along with the light rail stations on both sides and it would fill what I think is a big gap in the center of Downtown Phoenix.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

I do not see any possible way that the tunnel would be able to support the added weight of the observation tower without some serious structural work and I'm sure a tower of that type would need a semi-deep foundation for support. The tunnel does not appear to be more than about 15 feet at the most and the base of the pin would need to be spread over a larger area for support. Are there any areas of Hance that are NOT over the tunnel?

Yes, some of the edges aren't over the tunnel. I've seen diagrams before (but dont have one handy, sorry) that shows an outline of the tunnel overlaid onto the park.

The ugly surface lot north of the library of course isn't over the tunnel. Originally, the plans for the new Hance included that lot as an area that could be incorporated. However, the designers have apparently backed off that and decided a parking lot, in the middle of our city next to a LRT stop and the library is the way to go.

[Spitfiredude]

The pin won't get built. I'll put money on it. The developer said he hasn't secured financing because a site has not been selected. I doubt financing will happen either way. You put it away from downtown, it loses a lot of business potential. The fact that the science center did not support it shows that the project is probably loose-ended. Waste of time to talk about it. Not trying to be a debbie-downer, but to build this thing in a matter of 2 years without secure financing or a site selection is doubtful. Think realistically.

[rocksteady]

I think there was good intent behind this idea in terms of creating an iconic building for Phoenix, which is something we really need in our skyline. Unfortunately it was poorly planned and thought out. If you are going to build something like this, go for the maximum height allowed and in a more ideal location. I think a redesign and a better site which allows the max 500 ft would have my full support.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Spitfiredude

The pin won't get built. I'll put money on it. The developer said he hasn't secured financing because a site has not been selected. I doubt financing will happen either way. You put it away from downtown, it loses a lot of business potential. The fact that the science center did not support it shows that the project is probably loose-ended. Waste of time to talk about it. Not trying to be a debbie-downer, but to build this thing in a matter of 2 years without secure financing or a site selection is doubtful. Think realistically.

I don't disagree at all, though I think its kinda fun to talk about/think about. Is a big landmark skyline attraction what we need? If not, what other things would be better? Most American cities haven't been building these sorts of things since the Knoxville Worlds Fair bust in the 80s...so maybe its a relic of another time. On the other hand, living in St Louis for 4 years, I can tell you the Arch is extremely important to that city and always something to take visitors to.

[exit2lef]

The City Council just voted to continue the issue of the 3rd Ave / Camelback development until a hearing on March 19.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by Spitfiredude

The pin won't get built. I'll put money on it. The developer said he hasn't secured financing because a site has not been selected. I doubt financing will happen either way. You put it away from downtown, it loses a lot of business potential. The fact that the science center did not support it shows that the project is probably loose-ended. Waste of time to talk about it. Not trying to be a debbie-downer, but to build this thing in a matter of 2 years without secure financing or a site selection is doubtful. Think realistically.

That's not how the article reads. It doesn't sound like the Science Center didn't support it. It sounds like the developers were under a time crunch that the Science Center couldn't meet. Therefore, developers have chosen to look elsewhere. Who knows how far along in site selection the developer actually is. They could find a site in the next month. Who knows?

I find the comments to the article to be hilarious. Tram up South Mountain? Tourists biking from the top of South Mountain to downtown Phoenix? Ziplining between the communication towers on South Mountain? Really?

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

I still think the best option for the Pin would be Civic Space Park. It would be a great spot for an attraction of this type and could be a marker for ASU's downtown campus. Added height would also be a plus at this location along with the light rail stations on both sides and it would fill what I think is a big gap in the center of Downtown Phoenix.

Where in the park would this fit? That giant "art piece" suspended in the air takes up a lot of space and the city is seeking proposals for a high rise where the transit center is. I don't see where there is any space for a 430+ foot structure. Although it would be interesting if The Pin responded to the RFP issued for the transit center...

[RichTempe]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

Where in the park would this fit? That giant "art piece" suspended in the air takes up a lot of space and the city is seeking proposals for a high rise where the transit center is. I don't see where there is any space for a 430+ foot structure. Although it would be interesting if The Pin responded to the RFP issued for the transit center...

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Sean1187]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I don't disagree at all, though I think its kinda fun to talk about/think about. Is a big landmark skyline attraction what we need? If not, what other things would be better? Most American cities haven't been building these sorts of things since the Knoxville Worlds Fair bust in the 80s...so maybe its a relic of another time. On the other hand, living in St Louis for 4 years, I can tell you the Arch is extremely important to that city and always something to take visitors to.

I think that if it's done correctly, these types of structures can be successful for a city. Being from San Antonio, I loved the Tower of the Americas and still do. I mean, it's by no means the prettiest tower, but it adds to the skyline. Gives visitors great views of San Antonio. I've also been up Reunion Tower in Dallas, which just finished a huge renovation on the inside and has some pretty awesome interactive things to make the experience even greater.

My thoughts on the failure of Knoxville's world's fair and it's Sunsphere:
1) It's in Knoxville. Not a knock on them, but they're not exactly San Antonio, Dallas, Seattle, Las Vegas, or Toronto; just to name a few cities that have observation towers.
2) All of the cities I listed in #1 have towers greater that 500 feet. The Sunsphere in Knoxville is a measly 266 feet.

My fear is that Phoenix will keep this tower to below 500' and it won't seem as impressive nor give the views one could get from a little higher up. If you're level with all of the buildings that are around it, they just block your view and make going up there pointless.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by Sean1187

I think that if it's done correctly, these types of structures can be successful for a city. Being from San Antonio, I loved the Tower of the Americas and still do. I mean, it's by no means the prettiest tower, but it adds to the skyline. Gives visitors great views of San Antonio. I've also been up Reunion Tower in Dallas, which just finished a huge renovation on the inside and has some pretty awesome interactive things to make the experience even greater.

My thoughts on the failure of Knoxville's world's fair and it's Sunsphere:
1) It's in Knoxville. Not a knock on them, but they're not exactly San Antonio, Dallas, Seattle, Las Vegas, or Toronto; just to name a few cities that have observation towers.
2) All of the cities I listed in #1 have towers greater that 500 feet. The Sunsphere in Knoxville is a measly 266 feet.

My fear is that Phoenix will keep this tower to below 500' and it won't seem as impressive nor give the views one could get from a little higher up. If you're level with all of the buildings that are around it, they just block your view and make going up there pointless.

If this tower were to be proposed to go above 500 feet, I think there would be very large scale opposition throughout neighborhood groups within Central Phoenix. Many people think our mountains are more than sufficient observation points. Something over 500 feet outside of the downtown core would definitely be visible and would stand out from many vantage points in the city. It's a wonder to me how any of the high rises along Central got through the vehement neighborhood opposition that seems to be ever present in this city.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

I find the comments to the article to be hilarious. Tram up South Mountain? Tourists biking from the top of South Mountain to downtown Phoenix? Ziplining between the communication towers on South Mountain? Really?

After seeing this I had to go read with my own eyes to believe it! haha Wow, some people. A zipline between radio towers on top of a mountain....sounds safe. Maybe we can string some up between the towers and become the new Vegas! And a tram to the top of South Mountain?! haha Maybe we can bring Disneyland's old People Mover to Phoenix and connect it from the Pin to the top of SM. These people are nuts.

[poconoboy61]

@phxtower has indicated that the entire Pin project is officially dead. The information in the Eugene Scott article is outdated. You would think a media outlet would want to fact check, but AZ media obviously marches to the beat of its own drum. I guess we don't need to speculate any longer on where it might go! It was a very strange project and had lukewarm support at best. I wonder how long it'll take before media outlets provide the latest update...

Originally Posted by rocksteady

After seeing this I had to go read with my own eyes to believe it! haha Wow, some people. A zipline between radio towers on top of a mountain....sounds safe. Maybe we can string some up between the towers and become the new Vegas! And a tram to the top of South Mountain?! haha Maybe we can bring Disneyland's old People Mover to Phoenix and connect it from the Pin to the top of SM. These people are nuts.

They are. Just the image of any of these proposals is truly hysterical. We could just turn the city into one giant theme park. Base jumping off the Chase Tower, perhaps?

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

It is definitely a concern that market rate is having a hard time out there. This is one of the reasons I posted that article about Charlotte. It seems their market rate housing is exploding along their light rail line in certain areas.

And yeah, the residents can't believe some of that stuff they are saying, can they? They can't be that stupid. And they can't be that stupid that they'd think anyone else would believe what they are saying.

Yes, I've been saying that both Tempe and Phoenix should be more worried about the glut of subsidized + student residential projects being built in their cores than about a 4th story impacting property values. Clearly, developers are finding it easier to get financing, but than there are market rate projects underway so it can't be impossible- is it just cheap developers trying to get as many incentives as possible? Shouldn't the cities be alert to what they're doing and realize that's not the best approach to the future of each city?

And, I'm so sick of hearing the word TOD. First of all, if it's 3 stories, 1-use, and within .5 miles of one of the busiest LRT stations, it isn't TOD. Neither are really any of the few market rate projects being built; they're all low-rise, single use, with no entrances to the street. Elevation, for example, is 4 walls of windows around a monstrous center garage. It's crap. No wonder retail can't survive in midtown when sprawling apartment complexes don't allow their residents easy access to the street, or incorporate their own pieces of retail so that complementary services can come on board.

[KevininPhx]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Yes, I've been saying that both Tempe and Phoenix should be more worried about the glut of subsidized + student residential projects being built in their cores than about a 4th story impacting property values. Clearly, developers are finding it easier to get financing, but than there are market rate projects underway so it can't be impossible- is it just cheap developers trying to get as many incentives as possible? Shouldn't the cities be alert to what they're doing and realize that's not the best approach to the future of each city?

And, I'm so sick of hearing the word TOD. First of all, if it's 3 stories, 1-use, and within .5 miles of one of the busiest LRT stations, it isn't TOD. Neither are really any of the few market rate projects being built; they're all low-rise, single use, with no entrances to the street. Elevation, for example, is 4 walls of windows around a monstrous center garage. It's crap. No wonder retail can't survive in midtown when sprawling apartment complexes don't allow their residents easy access to the street, or incorporate their own pieces of retail so that complementary services can come on board.

You have a lot of opinions but I wonder if you've studied city planning.

Literally everything you moan about is what people in downtown LA were moaning about when I lived there 15 years ago. You know, when no one else was downtown and it was creepy at night. Downtown LA turned around for one reason. The city rezoned a bunch of rundown properties as residential that ended up attracting young people with their low rents.

Basic city planning begins with luring young, working people into the heart of downtown. That's stage 1. Stage 2 is more of the stuff you're daydreaming about, rightfully so. So, in essence, you are complaining about the stage that needs to happen in order for the stage you want to happen to be possible. Unfortunately, you can't rush past stage 1 to get to stage 2.

I applaud Mayor Gordon for his approach to downtown Phoenix. We're not finished with it yet, but Gordon had it right when he focused on students.

[Phxguy]

Found this comment on an article on Azcentral. Ben Bethel, for those who don't know, owns the Clarendon Hotel in Midtown. Can anyone confirm these projects? The Foundry Hotel sounds like it might be where the Lexington Hotel used to be as it's "right down the street" from the Canvas building. Or could it be the Building next to the old Matt's Big Breakfast?

Ben Bethel
Awesome downtown news.... and they'll be happy to know that The Foundry Hotel should be opening by December right down the street, and there's a 12 story condo building on Portland west of Central breaking ground soon, and a 12-15 story student housing project about to get underway on 1st Street and Roosevelt... a lot happening. Glad to see the late night hours... now, just as a suggestion, please please please deliver late-night within a mile or two, and you'll absolutely generate a lot of extra sales... there's a lot of us who just don't want to leave the house.

[poconoboy61]

Isn't the 12 story building part of the second of phase of Portland Place? Haven't heard about the student project. Where is there space for this on 1st Street and Roosevelt? Seeing as Mr. Bethel suggested the idea of developing a zipline between the communication towers on South Mountain, in addition to a tram up the mountain, I'm not sure how serious he is with his statements....

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by Phxguy

Found this comment on an article on Azcentral. Ben Bethel, for those who don't know, owns the Clarendon Hotel in Midtown. Can anyone confirm these projects? The Foundry Hotel sounds like it might be where the Lexington Hotel used to be as it's "right down the street" from the Canvas building. Or could it be the Building next to the old Matt's Big Breakfast?

Ben Bethel
Awesome downtown news.... and they'll be happy to know that The Foundry Hotel should be opening by December right down the street, and there's a 12 story condo building on Portland west of Central breaking ground soon, and a 12-15 story student housing project about to get underway on 1st Street and Roosevelt... a lot happening. Glad to see the late night hours... now, just as a suggestion, please please please deliver late-night within a mile or two, and you'll absolutely generate a lot of extra sales... there's a lot of us who just don't want to leave the house.

1st Street and Roosevelt? Did that one fly right underneath our radar? That would bring great height to the area, but I wonder where it would be placed?

[PHX31]

Did he mean 1st Ave?

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Yes, I've been saying that both Tempe and Phoenix should be more worried about the glut of subsidized + student residential projects being built in their cores than about a 4th story impacting property values. Clearly, developers are finding it easier to get financing, but than there are market rate projects underway so it can't be impossible- is it just cheap developers trying to get as many incentives as possible? Shouldn't the cities be alert to what they're doing and realize that's not the best approach to the future of each city?

And, I'm so sick of hearing the word TOD. First of all, if it's 3 stories, 1-use, and within .5 miles of one of the busiest LRT stations, it isn't TOD. Neither are really any of the few market rate projects being built; they're all low-rise, single use, with no entrances to the street. Elevation, for example, is 4 walls of windows around a monstrous center garage. It's crap. No wonder retail can't survive in midtown when sprawling apartment complexes don't allow their residents easy access to the street, or incorporate their own pieces of retail so that complementary services can come on board.

As I have mentioned multiple times before, student housing is not dorms. It is just your typical market rate apartments marketed towards students. In fact, you don't even have to be a student to live in one of these. The reason they are popping up all over the place is because there is a huge demand across the country for student housing. Even though universities like ASU have continued to grow, they have really reduced or eliminated the construction of dorms, and because of this the private sector began to exploit this demand. The big demand has made it a lot easier for developers to secure funding for these apartment buildings. Neither Tempe nor Phoenix have to worry about these popping up. As the market evolves, they could shift their marketing towards a broader range (Roosevelt Point is already deemphasizing the student housing part of its marketing).

As for low income housing, it is not as the place is being flooded by low income and age restricted housing. Yes, there are some projects going up, but for how much land is available, it is not anything to worry about. The reason that these are being built rather than market rate apartments also has everything to do with funding. It is really difficult to get funding for market rate projects in downtown right now (trust me, I've tried with multiple different projects). So developers are going to where the money is. And it is not because they are horrible people who only care about money, but rather because most of these developers can't afford to build an entire project without financing. Therefore they do what they can.

Even if some might not think these groups of people are not the ideal mix, just having more people around downtown is helpful. As more and more people move here, the services and retail that they require will continue to grow, which will incentivize other projects to be developed. Eventually, banks and investors won't be as tight with financing in the core.