WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[thebasketballgeek]

In a city that is as risk adverse as Winnipeg, it’s always the ones who are willing to take a risk that end up being the most successful. True North has been the leading example of that and it makes me wonder how much more of a wasteland Downtown would be if it wasn’t for their presence. True North is seriously backpacking this city’s Downtown development and has been for awhile. I really wish we had more people with pockets who are willing to invest in the core instead of living in their suburban bubble.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

In a city that is as risk adverse as Winnipeg, it’s always the ones who are willing to take a risk that end up being the most successful. True North has been the leading example of that and it makes me wonder how much more of a wasteland Downtown would be if it wasn’t for their presence. True North is seriously backpacking this city’s Downtown development and has been for awhile. I really wish we had more people with pockets who are willing to invest in the core instead of living in their suburban bubble.

I agree that it is good to have visionaries, and often they are rewarded for taking those risks. But not all visionaries are successful.

I'm happy that TN seems to be willing to try. I mean, it makes sense for them on a business level too as a bad downtown image is bad for their business interests too, so pouring more investment into the core would help buttress their existing interests too while having the potential to even be an economic success for them. Win-win as far as I'm concerned. Plus they have a good track record.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I agree that it is good to have visionaries, and often they are rewarded for taking those risks. But not all visionaries are successful.

I'm happy that TN seems to be willing to try. I mean, it makes sense for them on a business level too as a bad downtown image is bad for their business interests too, so pouring more investment into the core would help buttress their existing interests too while having the potential to even be an economic success for them. Win-win as far as I'm concerned. Plus they have a good track record.

The challenge is that you need visionary ideas and heavy capital (or big gov't bucks) for downtown Winnipeg. The minimum capital investment tends to be very high and the risk if it not paying off is also high.

Suburban projects are almost guaranteed a success (at least for the last 10 years) and it is a lot more scalable in terms of scope. Some could be one-off 3 story multi-family projects or multi-phase 6-8 floor complexes. All pretty much guaranteed success. I can't think of any suburban projects that outright failed and wasn't taken over by another developer and completed. Downtown there have been many.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

TN’s plans include a significant investment to redevelop Portage Place Mall into a vibrant mixed use building. TN is a well-known Winnipeg-based developer and owner of mixed use real estate and sports and entertainment assets in Winnipeg with relationships throughout Canada.

https://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/DMIS/Vie...8&isMobile=yes

This is what I think is most encouraging as far as the success of this proposal. TN is Winnipeg-based, and I'm sure Chipman sees the downtown issues every day he is in one of his buildings. I don't think we can under-estimate the motivation factor that TN and city have for the possible success of this project, and the overall health of the downtown.

I think we've all seen that downtown hasn't been a major shopping destination for quite a while now, but with the potential redevelopment of PP and the Bay, I can live quite happily with a nice residential, office and entertainment mix downtown.

[Gravity Wins]

The way I see it, the concerns about True North having a monopoly / owning too much of downtown are a 2nd level concern. The 1st level concern is making Winnipeg safe enough that people want to live and visit downtown. First things first, and then 10 years down the road (if we're lucky) things will be much better and we'll be able to think about questions of who owns what.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Gravity Wins

The way I see it, the concerns about True North having a monopoly / owning too much of downtown are a 2nd level concern. The 1st level concern is making Winnipeg safe enough that people want to live and visit downtown. First things first, and then 10 years down the road (if we're lucky) things will be much better and we'll be able to think about questions of who owns what.

I agree. In True North we have a property developer with local interest who wants to take on a very big redevelopment challenge.

In terms of "taking over" the downtown I wonder if people had the same concerns about the Richardsons and the Aspers? It seems that so much in the city ends up being done by it's wealthy families, it doesn't seem unusual that the Chipmans seem to have taken over the role of wealthy benefactor to the city.

[Norquay]

Wow, big news. Does anyone have any guesses as to what sort of programming we might see ? id love to see as much housing as possible, but theres so much space im not sure what they can even do with it all.

[BlackDog204]

Residential and affordable housing, a shift from shopping to services and a greenway running through what's now a mall are among options being considered by the possible redeveloper of downtown Winnipeg's Portage Place.

Jim Ludlow, president of True North Real Estate Development — a division of True North Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Winnipeg Jets — said the company's plan will both diverge from and mirror the one pitched by the Toronto developer that previously struck a deal to revamp the beleaguered mall.

For example, True North's plan will likely include a residential component and affordable housing in the 440,000-square-foot property.

But it won't be as "residential-centric" as the idea proposed by Starlight Investments — which included building two 20-storey residential towers above the mall — before the developer pulled out of its deal in 2021, Ludlow said.

In other ways, the new plan would also borrow from the one pitched by Starlight by potentially taking the roof off part of the building to make way for green space to run through it, Ludlow said in an interview on Monday.


source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ium%3Dsharebar

[Biff]

I think this could be troubling for True North though. I get the feeling that TN is not planning the level of community features that some groups are expecting.



"Some social advocates, meanwhile, called for features such as community space to be included in the plans and said True North doesn't have a track record of serving the community.

Ludlow said there's no logistical or financial reason True North would choose not to go ahead with the deal, hinting only that intangible obstacles such as potential community opposition may stand in the way.

"It's not whether capital exists. It's not whether you can create a vision. It's whether you can align as a group on what it takes to drive the city forward," he said."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ium%3Dsharebar



"The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives — Manitoba is calling on governments to reject the agreement, arguing it lacks Indigenous leadership.

“The City of Winnipeg, Government of Manitoba and federal government should decline this offer and move forward in meaningful partnership with First Nations, Métis and Indigenous community leadership on the redevelopment of Portage Place,” the organization said, in a statement."

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ty-report-says

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by Biff

I think this could be troubling for True North though. I get the feeling that TN is not planning the level of community features that some groups are expecting.



"Some social advocates, meanwhile, called for features such as community space to be included in the plans and said True North doesn't have a track record of serving the community.

Ludlow said there's no logistical or financial reason True North would choose not to go ahead with the deal, hinting only that intangible obstacles such as potential community opposition may stand in the way.

"It's not whether capital exists. It's not whether you can create a vision. It's whether you can align as a group on what it takes to drive the city forward," he said."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ium%3Dsharebar



"The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives — Manitoba is calling on governments to reject the agreement, arguing it lacks Indigenous leadership.

“The City of Winnipeg, Government of Manitoba and federal government should decline this offer and move forward in meaningful partnership with First Nations, Métis and Indigenous community leadership on the redevelopment of Portage Place,” the organization said, in a statement."

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ty-report-says

Haven’t these community advocates received all they are calling for with the development of the Hudson Bay building?

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Biff

"The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives — Manitoba is calling on governments to reject the agreement, arguing it lacks Indigenous leadership.

“The City of Winnipeg, Government of Manitoba and federal government should decline this offer and move forward in meaningful partnership with First Nations, Métis and Indigenous community leadership on the redevelopment of Portage Place,” the organization said, in a statement."

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ty-report-says

Oh please.

https://twitter.com/TJM_PlayByPlay/s...49978086735872

First they try to paint Connor Bedard as a racist against Indigenous children.

Now they are impeding on a positive development for the community, since it "lacks Indigenous leadership."

Newsflash: Winnipeg is 88% Non-Indigenous.

1. Outbid TNSE, and buy it yourself, and do as you please. and if that is not possible:

2. Stop trying to dictate the way things are run in Winnipeg.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

Arnt these community advocates getting all they are calling on with the development of the Hudson Bay building?

Many of them have become career complainers. I respect our Indigenous people, and even they will tell you this. A vocal minority of the people in their culture, has become obsessed with the "victim" mentality, and only cause problems, and play the race card, whenever it suits their agenda.

Incidentally, it's usually the criminal element that gravitates to this mindset. I know, since many of my Indigenous friends in Alberta (who are very hard workers), can't stand the 10-15% of parasites reinforcing the "lazy Native" stereotype.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Biff

I think this could be troubling for True North though. I get the feeling that TN is not planning the level of community features that some groups are expecting.



"Some social advocates, meanwhile, called for features such as community space to be included in the plans and said True North doesn't have a track record of serving the community.

Ludlow said there's no logistical or financial reason True North would choose not to go ahead with the deal, hinting only that intangible obstacles such as potential community opposition may stand in the way.

"It's not whether capital exists. It's not whether you can create a vision. It's whether you can align as a group on what it takes to drive the city forward," he said."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ium%3Dsharebar



"The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives — Manitoba is calling on governments to reject the agreement, arguing it lacks Indigenous leadership.

“The City of Winnipeg, Government of Manitoba and federal government should decline this offer and move forward in meaningful partnership with First Nations, Métis and Indigenous community leadership on the redevelopment of Portage Place,” the organization said, in a statement."

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ty-report-says

Re: Community space. Didn't the same thing happen when Starlight first announced their plans to redevelop the mall? I think during that process there were negotiations that resulted in plans for a drop-in centre being included, or space set aside for one. One may not be part of the plans right now, but I don't doubt that something could be arranged as the plans are drawn up.

Re: Indigenous leadership/financing. Okay, sure in theory this would be great, but there wasn't a proposal from Indigenous groups like there was for The Bay. In fact, since the Bay will still be linked by skywalk to PP, doesn't that make a sizeable indigenous component to the entire project?

I think we all want to see this succeed, and probably many of us see this as a "last chance" for PP to be redeveloped in a meaningful way (at least in our life-times). I am trying very hard not to be spooked by these two statements. I am not a part of the development planning or negotiations, so I can't say how serious a threat either of these two statements might be.

I also try to remember that the media pushes the negative, or potential negative, to a much greater degree than the positive, so I try to take these statements in that perspective.

That being said, it does make my gut twinge to think that anyone would want to potentially kibosh a proposal that has so much potential positive for the city. It seems the powers that be are really behind this, and if that's so I am hoping they can manage the negativity that will inevitably spring up when there is a high profile project like this.

Positive thoughts, positive thoughts.....

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Biff

I think this could be troubling for True North though. I get the feeling that TN is not planning the level of community features that some groups are expecting.



"Some social advocates, meanwhile, called for features such as community space to be included in the plans and said True North doesn't have a track record of serving the community.

Ludlow said there's no logistical or financial reason True North would choose not to go ahead with the deal, hinting only that intangible obstacles such as potential community opposition may stand in the way.

"It's not whether capital exists. It's not whether you can create a vision. It's whether you can align as a group on what it takes to drive the city forward," he said."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ium%3Dsharebar



"The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives — Manitoba is calling on governments to reject the agreement, arguing it lacks Indigenous leadership.

“The City of Winnipeg, Government of Manitoba and federal government should decline this offer and move forward in meaningful partnership with First Nations, Métis and Indigenous community leadership on the redevelopment of Portage Place,” the organization said, in a statement."

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ty-report-says

JFC its the same crap all the time. If Indigenous groups love portage place so much why don they buy it?

This is why things will never change in downtown Winnipeg. Companies shouldn't be pressured into doing things for a specific group. SMH.

[drew]

Unless TN is willing to pay for this with 100% of their own money, these issues are going to come up. I doubt TN is touching this project without at least the same type of government assistance that they other project had lined up.

I suspect that TN will be encouraged to involve these types of community-oriented features, as funding - especially from the Federal government - is going to be larger and more easily accessible if they do.

[esquire]

Between what I've read about the TN plan and from what I heard on CJOB during their interview with Jim Ludlow yesterday (which basically sounded like an exercise in managing expectations), this sounds to me like another milestone in the continuing decline of Portage Avenue.

Unlike Starlight's proposal which called for a major refresh of the property and further development in the form of new residential towers, it sounds like, reading between the lines, TN is going to get access to parking revenue, maybe finagle some subsidies, and reinvest a bit of that into the building itself. Maybe make it slightly less embarrassing. But with all the emphasis on community use, etc., it sounds like a step in the Selkirk Avenue-fication of Portage where, much like Selkirk Avenue over the last 40 years, businesses are being displaced by social agencies and the like.

I'm not saying it's bad, there's clearly a need for it. It's just disappointing that our main drag is taking another step in that direction and the disappearance of retailers isn't just a temporary, cyclical blip but a permanent change to the downtown environment.

I don't blame TN for taking this on and trying to make a buck while hopefully doing some good. However, as with SCO and the old HBC Building, it's a little sad that it has come to this.

[drew]

I think the profitable parking and the foundations in place for 2 towers make PP an intriguing opportunity for prospective purchasers.

If TN is thinking of more residential buildings down the road, they can get the foundations for these buildings at pennies on the dollar at PP. Add in 2 levels of underground parking, which is not economically feasible for any other developments they may be considering. Just buy it and keep the heat on for now.

[esquire]

^ That may be how TN is looking at it. Kind of a long term play where, if things change in 25 years, maybe they can redevelop the place and build the residential towers, etc.

Anyone expecting some dramatic improvement to the place in the near term is going to be sorely disappointed IMO. Ludlow on CJOB did not sound like someone pitching the idea of dramatic improvements along the lines of what Starlight was proposing.

[GreyGarden]

True North is in an interesting position. They have sunk a significant amount of money into downtown over the last 20 years and they must be looking around rather nervously. They have a direct financial interest in keeping the area from declining any further.

This is good news imo. Like most winnipeg proposals, I’ll believe it when I see cranes in the sky (but even then… see Sutton place). I think TN’s interest in protecting their existing investments gives me hope for this.

[esquire]

^ There won't be cranes. Unless I'm missing something, TN hasn't even alluded to building anything the way that Starlight was talking about it.

In 2019 new residential towers on top of Portage Place seemed realistic, but I don't think anyone would be pitching that now.