Lamenting the decline of the car

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by drew

Just don't travel too far out in the snow!

(winter battery range dig)

Depends tremendously on the model. Nissan Leaf, for example, has no battery conditioning (heating or cooling) and gets destroyed for range loss in cold weather. On the other hand, the whole Tesla fleet has conditioned batteries (heating and cooling) and experience relatively minor range loss in cold weather. Let's not pretend that ICE vehicles don't lose range in cold weather, either. Cold weather is like the honey badger when it comes to cars.

[drew]

^ maybe in SWO Ontario and Vancouver winter, but as it stands now, there is no way I would ever take an EV out on the highway during adverse winter weather in my part of the world.

[WarrenC12]

Range anxiety is a real thing until you actually live with an EV for a while.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by theman23

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ella-snow-day/

The Miata is one of the rare ICE cars that has near 50-50 weight distribution, so it makes sense that it's good in the snow. Most ICE cars are front-heavy though. EVs are typically better balanced and have a lower centre of gravity.

Originally Posted by jonny24

I wouldn't call it advocating... I just said they're not reflective of reality. Most are fine, but parking standards are set by the municipality if I'm not mistaken so could vary, so IF a truck is sticking out 1.5m as was stated, then they're too small.

I would assume most standards have shrunk over time, look at how big cars were in the 60's. I'm thinking they may have gotten too small in some places.

If a truck is sticking out 1.5 m, the parking space isn't too small, the truck is too big. Designing everything around big vehicles has ruined our cities in comparison to what they could be. We shouldn't be further compromising our cities and pedestrian safety just because people want bigger vehicles. The desire for a big truck should take a back seat to the safety of other road users.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The Miata is one of the rare ICE cars that has near 50-50 weight distribution, so it makes sense that it's good in the snow. Most ICE cars are front-heavy though. EVs are typically better balanced and have a lower centre of gravity.


If a truck is sticking out 1.5 m, the parking space isn't too small, the truck is too big. Designing everything around big vehicles has ruined our cities in comparison to what they could be. We shouldn't be further compromising our cities and pedestrian safety just because people want bigger vehicles. The desire for a big truck should take a back seat to the safety of other road users.

Most rear wheel drive cars are sports cars (or sedans)and have 50:50 weight distribution and low centers of gravity. Rear wheel drive cars being a “disaster” in the winter hasn’t been true for 40 years.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by theman23

Most rear wheel drive cars are sports cars (or sedans)and have 50:50 weight distribution and low centers of gravity. Rear wheel drive cars being a “disaster” in the winter hasn’t been true for 40 years.

How does a typical gas powered RWD car achieve 50/50 weight distribution? I used to drive a 1984 Mustang (math says that's 36 years old) and it was garbage on any kind of ice or snow. I had to put sand bags in the trunk to get anywhere. This was in Vancouver so not a ton of bad weather but I'd call that car undrivable in a prairie winter.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by theman23

Most rear wheel drive cars are sports cars (or sedans)and have 50:50 weight distribution and low centers of gravity. Rear wheel drive cars being a “disaster” in the winter hasn’t been true for 40 years.

That's just it though, that's the minority of ICE cars. Run of the mill EVs have the weight distribution that you only get in a small segment of the ICE world.

[niwell]

I recently joined Comunauto car share and have been using it fairly often recently on account of errands mostly related to our new puppy (goodbye, sleep). Most of the cars seem to be Kia Rio's or Hyudai Accent hatchback models, which are far smaller than the mid-size rental cars I'm more familiar with driving recently for road trips and occasionally for work. I obviously can't speak to reliability and there are drawbacks to the size, but wow are they easy to navigate the narrow streets around me, navigate parking structures and parallel park on busy roads. With a hatchback I have actually been able to pick up stuff from Home Depot for projects around the house, though I'm not exactly hauling sheet wood...

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Depends tremendously on the model. Nissan Leaf, for example, has no battery conditioning (heating or cooling) and gets destroyed for range loss in cold weather. On the other hand, the whole Tesla fleet has conditioned batteries (heating and cooling) and experience relatively minor range loss in cold weather. Let's not pretend that ICE vehicles don't lose range in cold weather, either. Cold weather is like the honey badger when it comes to cars.

How does the heater impact the range? This is one factor where the inefficiency of ICEs is a positive - all that energy lost as heat becomes useful in the winter.

[lio45]

Several times, when none of my trucks were available (happens on occasion), I carried several sheets of 4x8 drywall or 4x8 plywood on the roof of my Corolla winter beater. No bothering with a roof rack, straight on the paint, two binders (one through front doors, one through rear doors, doesn't prevent doors from closing). Easy and perfectly safe.

[drew]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Range anxiety is a real thing until you actually live with an EV for a while.

Enlighten me. With everything else being equal, other than temperature, what would be the difference in range of an EV (use your own EV as an example) when driving at -20C versus +20C?

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by niwell

I recently joined Comunauto car share and have been using it fairly often recently on account of errands mostly related to our new puppy (goodbye, sleep). Most of the cars seem to be Kia Rio's or Hyudai Accent hatchback models, which are far smaller than the mid-size rental cars I'm more familiar with driving recently for road trips and occasionally for work. I obviously can't speak to reliability and there are drawbacks to the size, but wow are they easy to navigate the narrow streets around me, navigate parking structures and parallel park on busy roads. With a hatchback I have actually been able to pick up stuff from Home Depot for projects around the house, though I'm not exactly hauling sheet wood...

I drive a Rio (bought new in 2019) and my best friend drives an Accent (bought new in 2020 - before covid). They're basically the same car.

I'd argue if you're a city person who isn't hauling big crap and doesn't care about having a flashy ride, they are the best ICE car available. Cheap, reliable, good on gas, very maneuverable. They're also pretty well loaded on interior comfort features for their price points, with the base models still having a sizeable feature list (as typical of the Koreans). At the time I bought it in 2019, the 2019 Kia Rio LX+ trim was the only new car available in Canada for less than $20,000 MSRP that had both automatic transmission and heated seats & steering wheel.

I've moved since I bought it and had no problems buying furniture, home renovation projects, and even going camping with the cargo space I have. The back seats and the front captain seat all come down, providing quite the cargo space if you're willing to sacrifice being able to have any passengers.

The only downside is that Kia-Hyundai have an absurdly frequent servicing schedule - I have to get servicing every 6 months or 6000 km in order to keep the warranty. Thankfully I only drive about 10,000km a year so I just do it every 6 months.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by milomilo

How does the heater impact the range? This is one factor where the inefficiency of ICEs is a positive - all that energy lost as heat becomes useful in the winter.

You could see a 30-40% drop in EV range in winter driving below -10C from using the cabin heaters. Not the vehicle you want to be driving from Calgary to Edmonton in the dead of winter. Although I heard running the air conditioner in summer is an even bigger drain.

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/...-range-loss/p2

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by jawagord

You could see a 30-40% drop in EV range in winter driving below -10C from using the cabin heaters. Not the vehicle you want to be driving from Calgary to Edmonton in the dead of winter. Although I heard running the air conditioner in summer is an even bigger drain.

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/...-range-loss/p2

I've always thought a smart thing for EVs would be to have a feature where you could turn on the car & run the cabin heat while it's still plugged in, with grid power being used to run it instead of the battery, meaning you could get your car nice and toasty before leaving. That way you wouldn't need the battery for cabin heat.

I don't know if any EVs have done that.

[urbandreamer]

Couldn't you just have the heated seats on with the main heater off? I do that sometimes in my car.

I'll probably get either a 2016/17 VW Golf or Mazda 3 as my next car.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I've always thought a smart thing for EVs would be to have a feature where you could turn on the car & run the cabin heat while it's still plugged in, with grid power being used to run it instead of the battery, meaning you could get your car nice and toasty before leaving. That way you wouldn't need the battery for cabin heat.

I don't know if any EVs have done that.

Yes. You can schedule the HVAC to turn on before you leave. There's no reason to "start" an EV to turn on the HVAC.

Just took delivery last week of what may be my last IC vehicle, a 2020 Audi Q7. I had a Tesla Model Y on order in the spring, but lack of charging infrastructure and our long family drives to the Okanagan and eastern SK made that decision premature. My neighbour has a Model X and at -20 he gets half the range as specified. We routinely make long drives in the winter and I don't want to be stuck in Hinton or Humboldt trying to find a charge.

My wire's car will be replaced in about 2 years with an EV which will be our urban vehicle.

[lio45]

But that doesn't change much, as anyone who's tried to sleep in a parked car during a typical Canadian winter night can tell you.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by drew

Enlighten me. With everything else being equal, other than temperature, what would be the difference in range of an EV (use your own EV as an example) when driving at -20C versus +20C?

I'm in Vancouver we don't get -20C

But there are lots of factors to consider. Heating the cabin is instant but a huge power drain (resistance heater). If you're plugged in overnight in your garage, you can pre-heat the car, which will also pre-condition (heat) the battery. The range impact driving to work would be negligible.

If you're parked on the street at the battery is doing all that work, you'll see a big range impact. -30% at the work case I guess, for a short commute? Once it's warm and driving, it's the same as any other day.

Lots of people have EVs in cold climates and have run a bunch of math on it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jawagord

You could see a 30-40% drop in EV range in winter driving below -10C from using the cabin heaters. Not the vehicle you want to be driving from Calgary to Edmonton in the dead of winter. Although I heard running the air conditioner in summer is an even bigger drain.

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/...-range-loss/p2

I almost never notice a difference with AC on and off. Heating is obvious, but not on for long.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I've always thought a smart thing for EVs would be to have a feature where you could turn on the car & run the cabin heat while it's still plugged in, with grid power being used to run it instead of the battery, meaning you could get your car nice and toasty before leaving. That way you wouldn't need the battery for cabin heat.

I don't know if any EVs have done that.

I'm pretty sure all of them do.

I can pre-heat and cool my car from anywhere with cell service. Even turn on the heated seats.