HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 2:39 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post


London, ON beats New York, so I think it's safe to assume London, UK beats New York as well. Cycling rate in New York was much lower than other similarly walkable cities.
Whoa lol. The claim was that London, England, has more cyclists than New York, not more people who bike to work. It's plausible that London has more cyclists (I'm skeptical), but this isn't proof. I also don't think London's biking infrastructure was that great. I've biked London pretty extensively pre-pandemic and their bike lanes were nowhere near as developed as New York's.

Also, if we use the public bike rental data as a proxy, New York is quite a bit ahead of London. New York's CitiBike set a single day ridership record of 138k riders in 2022, while London's Santander Cycles also set a single day ridership record of 73k rides.

And I won't even get into the nonsense comparison to London, Ontario, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Cycling rates in Jersey City and Newark are also lower than other non-central cities such as Oakland, Longueuil, and Gatineau. You can also see how far behind Toronto and its suburbs are compared to Montreal and its suburbs.
Of course people don't bike to work from Jersey City. There is a very large river between Jersey City and Manhattan, and there is no bridge. And the biking infrastructure on the Jersey side of the river is far less developed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 7:28 PM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,701
Oakland, Gatineau, and Longueuil are across the bay and the river as well, so that's not a good excuse. Jersey City is also one of the leaders in the USA in people walking to work, so distance is obviously not a problem.

And if you don't use the amount of people cycling to work, then I don't know what you would use. Commute trip is almost every day mandatory trip, and represents the peak demand, what the transportation infrastructure is designed for.

It is hard to compare New York with other US cities because bicycles are usually grouped with motorcycles and taxis in US data as "other means", which might put New York at advantage or disadvantage (more taxis but fewer cyclists, or fewer motorcyclists but more cyclists). In UK data, bicycles, motorcycles, taxis, other are all separate, but in Canada bicycles are separate from taxis and motorcycles, but taxis and motorcycles are grouped together in "other methods". So hard to directly compare with those also, even with the 2021 data. And of course the 2021 is affected by the pandemic also.

New York city, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 151,774 (5.41%)
Jersey City, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 3,541 (3.84%)
Newark, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 10,975 (10.15%)

San Francisco, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 21,547 (9.02%)
Oakland, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 6,598 (4.53%)

Greater London, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 233,829 (9.26%)
Greater London, bicycle only: 128,924 (5.11%)

Ottawa, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 13,525 (4.91%)
Ottawa, bicycle only: 4,260 (1.55%)
Gatineau, taxi, bicycle, motorcycle, other: 3,270 (3.42%)
Gatineau, bicycle only: 1,115 (1.15%)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 8:09 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Oakland, Gatineau, and Longueuil are across the bay and the river as well, so that's not a good excuse. Jersey City is also one of the leaders in the USA in people walking to work, so distance is obviously not a problem.
If JC has a high walk score then that's probably why it doesn't have a high bike score. However, the vast majority of people in JC commute to NYC for work.

For the people that work in NYC, you have to either take a ferry or train to get to Manhattan. And bikes technically aren't allowed on the train during rush hour, so your only option is the ferry if you want to bike to work in NYC. However, the ferry is much more expensive than the train, and there's also an additional charge to bring your bike along on the ferry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
And if you don't use the amount of people cycling to work, then I don't know what you would use. Commute trip is almost every day mandatory trip, and represents the peak demand, what the transportation infrastructure is designed for.
Well, to start, tens of thousands of delivery workers use bikes for their livelihood every day in NYC. Since these people aren't actually traveling to a work location, I'm certain that method of measuring would completely miss counting them.

Quote:
Israel Lausell, 41, works between six and eight hours a day making evening deliveries in Manhattan for Uber Eats and Grubhub in addition to his day job at the New York City Department of Education. It is not easy money. “I’ve fallen on my bike. I’ve gotten hit by a car,” he said.

For delivery workers like him, the weather and the uncertainty are the worst: “Sometimes we’ve made 20 bucks — and we’ve been out here all day long.”

The coronavirus pandemic brought with it an explosion of demand for doorstep deliveries. In New York City, there are now an estimated 65,000 delivery workers, riding bikes and scooters, day and night, often in terrible weather. But the city has created very little infrastructure to support this work force.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/n...rs-breaks.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 8:18 PM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,701
Sigh, okay, if you want believe that higher walkability discourages cycling and that NYC is the only city with delivery workers using bicycles then more power to you, I won't argue anymore. NYC has more cyclists than London.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 8:24 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Sigh, okay, if you want believe that higher walkability discourages cycling and that NYC is the only city with delivery workers using bicycles then more power to you, I won't argue anymore. NYC has more cyclists than London.
The vast majority of deliveries in NYC are done by bike. Maybe London (England) is similar, but I strongly doubt any other U.S. or Canadian city even remotely matches NYC's mode of delivery vehicle. I've also already pointed out a strong stat to question the claims about London (England) having far more cyclists in general than NYC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 10:32 AM
nito nito is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,855
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
this is not apples to apples. as london is twice the area of nyc i would imagine if you added the corresponding inner nyc suburbs to even that acreage up it would be identical to london at least.
I don’t think you’ve thought this response through; the population of both London and New York is c.9mn. It is people that cycle, not lumps of turf or buckets of water.

I suspect even if you took all of New York’s metro area population you would struggle to discover another 314,000 daily cyclists just because the amount of infrastructure falls away/borderline non-existent, commute distances become longer and the road environment becomes ever more hostile due to the dominance of the automobile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Whoa lol. The claim was that London, England, has more cyclists than New York, not more people who bike to work. It's plausible that London has more cyclists (I'm skeptical), but this isn't proof. I also don't think London's biking infrastructure was that great. I've biked London pretty extensively pre-pandemic and their bike lanes were nowhere near as developed as New York's.

Also, if we use the public bike rental data as a proxy, New York is quite a bit ahead of London. New York's CitiBike set a single day ridership record of 138k riders in 2022, while London's Santander Cycles also set a single day ridership record of 73k rides.

And I won't even get into the nonsense comparison to London, Ontario, lol.

Of course people don't bike to work from Jersey City. There is a very large river between Jersey City and Manhattan, and there is no bridge. And the biking infrastructure on the Jersey side of the river is far less developed.
I’ve already posted the official statistics from TfL and NYC.gov, so I’m not sure why there is any scepticism.



As I’ve said, the real test of a city being receptive to cycling is how hospitable the environment is in the absence of segregated infrastructure which can mask glaring deficiencies in the wider urban environment. In my opinion, the 20mph blanket speed limit I raised before is a massive game changer in encouraging active travel in London, but the expansion of pedestrian and cycling-only streets, the Low Traffic Neighbourhoods which eliminate through-running traffic (probably unthinkable even with the New York City grid), reduction in car parking spaces (both on and off-street) and other traffic calming measures all add up to a more conducive environment. Take school streets – where roads are closed off to vehicle traffic outside schools – London has 547, New York just 41.

Bike hires aren’t a good barometer of cycling activity in New York; CitiBike accounts for just 25% of all cycling activity, let alone in London where Santander Cycles accounts for just 8% of all daily traffic. We don’t point to Amsterdam and Copenhagen’s bike hire schemes to gauge activity in those cities. I would suspect that bike ownership is higher in London which probably explains why London has 3x as much on-street bike parking as New York.

On a personal note, I mention that I cycle a lot, but I’ve only used bike hire twice in my life and my bikes (and those of my mates) are all parked off-street. For reference this is my personal Strava heatmap around Central London.



I was going to bring my bike to New York, but didn’t in the end due to the hassle of having to get out of town and Central Park laps not looking appealing.
__________________
London Transport Thread updated: 2023_07_12 | London Stadium & Arena Thread updated: 2022_03_09
London General Update Thread updated: 2019_04_03 | High Speed 2 updated: 2021_09_24
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 1:27 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is online now
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 9,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post

Commuter share is a generally poor way to measure pedestrian or bike traffic, as most trips taken with these modes are not to work (unlike say, transit or cars, which are much more likely to be used primarily for commuting). It also penalizes larger cities, as average commute distances are simply longer and thus less likely to be by active transport (even with higher average densities) - this doesn't mean that people aren't still getting around their neighbourhoods on foot or bike though.
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 12:30 AM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,701
Yes, NYC is a big city, so to expect it to be as walkable as a much small city or town is dumb. That's the whole point of increasing density, to reduce travel distances.

And size does not prevent Greater London from having more commutes via cycling and walking than London, Ontario. And I don't see the highest walking and cycling mode shares on that graph being dominated by small cities anyways.

There is nothing in any statistics out there than even suggest that NYC has more cyclists than Greater London. You guys can keep making excuses about NYC's size and non-commute trips and delivery boys, but it is just getting pathetic at this point. Greater London is city of 8 million just like NYC so you can stop complaining about fake comparisons and fake stats.



These are all large urban areas, 2 million people or more, and UK consistently trumps USA and Canada in terms active modes of transportation. It's not even close. It's very wide gap, and so stop with the excuses, they are not going make up the difference. Edi: and keep in mind the US numbers include motorcycles and taxis too, while UK and Canafa numbers exclude taxis and motorcycles, so the gap is even wider.

Last edited by Doady; Jun 13, 2023 at 1:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 1:16 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is online now
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 9,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
There is nothing in any statistics out there than even suggest that NYC has more cyclists than Greater London. You guys can keep making excuses about NYC's size and non-commute trips and delivery boys, but it is just getting pathetic at this point. Greater London is city of 8 million just like NYC so you can stop complaining about fake comparisons and fake stats.

I'm not making that claim, just pointing out that commuter modal share is a poor measure of the prevalence of cycling, as it excludes the majority of trips actually taken by bike. This data that Nito posted above that measures total daily cycling journeys is an example of good data that also shows London as having more cyclists than New York:






Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
And size does not prevent Greater London from having more commutes via cycling and walking than London, Ontario. And I don't see the highest walking and cycling mode shares on that graph being dominated by small cities anyways.

Size of course isn't everything, but the point I'm making is that the average commuting distance is usually longer in larger cities than in smaller ones, and as such, all else being equal are less likely to feasible by foot or bike. There are obviously other factors at play - density, built form, infrastructure, culture, climate, topography, etc - but regardless, larger cities tend to appear to fare more poorly than they otherwise would if all trips were being counted.

Another way of looking at it: the percentage of cycling/pedestrian trips that are to work out of the total number of cycling/pedestrian trips taken will invariably be higher in smaller cities than in larger ones; regardless of their actual commuter modal share or total number of trips taken.
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 2:42 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
I don't think the city of New York is able to track biking data that well, tbh.
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:10 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.