Winnipeg Ice

[BKB]

Originally Posted by esquire

No need to add a deck, they can just add seating on the one side that doesn't have any. Nice thing about that is that it would allow for construction of premium seating, team facilities, etc. They could replace the existing benches with proper seats. They could have a mostly new arena at a fraction of the cost of a totally new building. It would be a bit ramshackle but it would get the job done. I think they could probably get capacity anywhere from 2,500 (if they only add new seating on the empty side) to 4,500 (if they demolish and replace existing seating behind the nets as well), mostly depending on budget.

This is probably one of three ways the ICE could get away with not building a totally new arena from the ground up... another path would be moving the team to a place like Steinbach and using the rink there, but it would cost a ton to bring that building up to WHL spec and it would still be very small by WHL standards. The third way is to work out a deal to move into CLC. But all three alternatives have serious drawbacks, and in the latter two cases, may not even be possible.

Of course, a totally new arena would be the best bet, but the price tag would be staggering... probably somewhere between $50 and $100 million.

Isn't the "empty side" twenty or so feet from Sidney Smith Street? How would they add additional seating and team facilities?

[blueandgoldguy]

Worth noting that in Prince Albert there are plans for a new 4500 seat arena for the Raiders. The current 2500 seat arena is no longer suitable for the WHL and if the team remained there it would likely fold or be relocated. It's unlikely Steinbach would be approved as anything more than temporary home for the ICE unless they boosted seating capacity of the new proposed arena to 4,000 or more with additional suites and club seats. I realize Swift Current has an arena that only seats 2500 or so but they have essentially been grandfathered into today's WHL.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by BKB

Isn't the "empty side" twenty or so feet from Sidney Smith Street? How would they add additional seating and team facilities?

That's what I am wondering. Wouldn't it mean pushing out the wall another 30 or 40 feet and thus require a new roof. I would think such a project would cost tens of millions. Cheaper than $50 - $60 million for a new arena, but still not exactly cheap.

[drew]

^ and a renovation of that size would likely require the team to temporarily relocate for parts of a season (or two) while construction was underway.

[thurmas]

I don't think Fleming even expanded is a solution for the ice due to it being in such a dead zone. Ice desperately need an arena close to people night life and activity. Ideally something near the outlet mall.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by BKB

Isn't the "empty side" twenty or so feet from Sidney Smith Street? How would they add additional seating and team facilities?

It's a little over 40 feet from the wall to the street going by Google Maps. Of course, there is at least some usable space inside the wall itself. Maybe in the range of about 10-15 feet?

For context, 50 feet is the length of space needed for the north end zone stands at IG Field from the field to the party deck, about 24 rows.

It's possible that team facilities and what not might have to be built south of the building instead of on the east, I'm sure a creative solution could be found. The point is that there is enough room for a significant expansion to bring it into that ~4,000 seat range.

Originally Posted by drew

^ and a renovation of that size would likely require the team to temporarily relocate for parts of a season (or two) while construction was underway.

CLC would realistically be the only option to keep the team in Winnipeg if Wayne Fleming was unusable. The only alternative would be to leave town and play in Selkirk/Steinbach/Portage for a season. Would be hard to imagine them playing at Iceplex, or The Rink or whatever else.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I don't think Fleming even expanded is a solution for the ice due to it being in such a dead zone. Ice desperately need an arena close to people night life and activity. Ideally something near the outlet mall.

I don't know if that fits with what Fort Whyte is trying to do.

[BlackDog204]

I've come to the conclusion that having an NHL, AHL, and WHL team in the same Canadian city is not economically sustainable, long term, if the metro area is under 2,000,000 people. The Moose attendance has dropped by 40% since 2019-20. COVID could explain a slight decline, but the Winnipeg market has only 850,000 people, and is already over-saturated with hockey teams.

Even in Calgary, where they now have all 3 teams, as the AHL Calgary Wranglers began play this year, both the AHL and WHL clubs that they have are not drawing well at all. The attendance for the WHL Hitman for years, were averaging over 8,000 fans per game, has fallen to 2500 this season. The new AHL Wranglers are only averaging 3,200 fans/game, which is in the bottom 5 of the AHL.

The Moose have the 4th worst attendance in the AHL at 3,169. The Winnipeg Ice are dead last in the WHL, in terms of attendance, despite being the best team in the league. Winnipeggers are going to choose the Jets for obvious reasons, so eventually Winnipeg hockey fans are going to be forced to choose between the Moose and the Ice. It's just not realistic to have them both playing when a NHL team is already in the market.

[esquire]

^ Or is it possible that it simply does not take 100% capacity crowd attendance to sustain these teams? If Chipman and Fettes are happy to keep running their teams in Winnipeg, are we going to call them up and tell them to move a couple of them out of town because we have decided it simply isn't feasible?

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

I've come to the conclusion that having an NHL, AHL, and WHL team in the same Canadian city is not economically sustainable, long term, if the metro area is under 2,000,000 people. The Moose attendance has dropped by 40% since 2019-20. COVID could explain a slight decline, but the Winnipeg market has only 850,000 people, and is already over-saturated with hockey teams.

Even in Calgary, where they now have all 3 teams, as the AHL Calgary Wranglers began play this year, both the AHL and WHL clubs that they have are not drawing well at all. The attendance for the WHL Hitman for years, were averaging over 8,000 fans per game, has fallen to 2500 this season. The new AHL Wranglers are only averaging 3,200 fans/game, which is in the bottom 5 of the AHL.

The Moose have the 4th worst attendance in the AHL at 3,169. The Winnipeg Ice are dead last in the WHL, in terms of attendance, despite being the best team in the league. Winnipeggers are going to choose the Jets for obvious reasons, so eventually Winnipeg hockey fans are going to be forced to choose between the Moose and the Ice. It's just not realistic to have them both playing when a NHL team is already in the market.

The Moose are a separate case. That's a logistical convenience issue being the farm club of a NHL team. There's a lot of efficiencies around that operation that make the costs a lot lower than they would be for a normal AHL team.

One piece at a complete breaking point at the big arena are concessions. There's basically nothing you can get, food and drink for less than $10. I'm in a group of 4 that attends every game and we simply don't buy anything at the game. I think they need to take a look at what the Bombers have done to have some reasonable options along with the more upscale stuff and booze. The prices don't change for Moose games either!

San Jose's AHL team has moved into the practice facility instead of the NHL rink now.

The Ice I'm not sure how they continue to run a WHL team with WHL travel and costs with MJHL type attendance. MJHL teams have player fees now BTW. The WHL is the first level where players are not paying to play.

Ultimately I could see a partnership of the Ice and TNSE to build a 3500-4000 seat arena pretty similar to the original Ice plan. But they need $75 million to get that done. The timing is also extremely poor coming out of the pandemic.

[esquire]

^ It is worth pointing out that there are many informal ties between TNSE and the 50 Below group. Some out of town observers think that the two are bitter rivals, but I don't think that is the reality of the situation at all... many 50 Below people are connected to TNSE in one way or another, and given the frequency with which I see Jets execs and scouts at ICE games, I think they probably appreciate having the WHL in town. So it may not be outside the realm of possibility for a collaboration on an arena project to one day occur... frankly, I think the Moose might benefit from having a more "right sized" facility too, as the CLC is devoid of atmosphere when there are fewer than 4,000 fans in the joint, which is most games.

And let's face it, the ICE are peanuts in financial terms compared to TNSE. The average Moose game draws more than double the crowd as the ICE, at more than double the average price point. The ICE aren't hurting TNSE in any way.

In other news, the ICE won their 15th in a row yesterday, and now have 20 on the season.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It is worth pointing out that there are many informal ties between TNSE and the 50 Below group. Some out of town observers think that the two are bitter rivals, but I don't think that is the reality of the situation at all... many 50 Below people are connected to TNSE in one way or another, and given the frequency with which I see Jets execs and scouts at ICE games, I think they probably appreciate having the WHL in town. So it may not be outside the realm of possibility for a collaboration on an arena project to one day occur... frankly, I think the Moose might benefit from having a more "right sized" facility too, as the CLC is devoid of atmosphere when there are fewer than 4,000 fans in the joint, which is most games.

And let's face it, the ICE are peanuts in financial terms compared to TNSE. The average Moose game draws more than double the crowd as the ICE, at more than double the average price point. The ICE aren't hurting TNSE in any way.

In other news, the ICE won their 15th in a row yesterday, and now have 20 on the season.

And TNSE is basically building an empire around entertainment in the city. They'd be able to fill dates at that mid-size arena venue.

I'm just not sure if the previous proposed location is of interest. I think something a little closer to that Wilkes/Kenaston area would be ideal, or even on the U of M campus to take advantage of the infrastructure there. The U of M could use the facility too.

[blueandgoldguy]

Tell PF Chang to take a hike and build on the former stadium site.

The Old Stadium site is divided into 4 quadrants with the old target store (now winners/michaels/24-7) in the upper west quadrant. The 2 south quadrants measure about 250 m or more and close to 200m north to south from Maroons Road to that road that runs through the middle of the site. An new arena of 500 feet by 400 feet would easily fit there and provide a much larger footprint than the current arena (probably 300 feet by 430 feet). Tear down the old target building and the north side of the site (also 250+ metres by approx. 200m) and that could be your parkade and arena district in 2040.

[dennis]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Tell PF Chang to take a hike and build on the former stadium site.

The Old Stadium site is divided into 4 quadrants with the old target store (now winners/michaels/24-7) in the upper west quadrant. The 2 south quadrants measure about 250 m or more and close to 200m north to south from Maroons Road to that road that runs through the middle of the site. An new arena of 500 feet by 400 feet would easily fit there and provide a much larger footprint than the current arena (probably 300 feet by 430 feet). Tear down the old target building and the north side of the site (also 250+ metres by approx. 200m) and that could be your parkade and arena district in 2040.

You don’t have to tell anyone to leave. Look at the sites on a satellite view. You could probably put two CHL sized arenas on the site. So let me propose one arena, parking and PF Changs as the new Chi Chi’s for pre or post game dinner.

[esquire]

^ Only issue there is that the land may be too expensive for something like a junior rink... it could throw the economics of the plan out of whack. A partnership with the Kapyong consortium, the U of M, the Red River Ex or whomever could lead to 50 Below getting free land out of the deal to build on.

In other ICE news, they take on the Lethbridge Hurricanes tomorrow and Wednesday to keep the winning streak chugging along. They are number one in the WHL standings and ranked number one among all CHL teams.

[dennis]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Only issue there is that the land may be too expensive for something like a junior rink... it could throw the economics of the plan out of whack. A partnership with the Kapyong consortium, the U of M, the Red River Ex or whomever could lead to 50 Below getting free land out of the deal to build on.

In other ICE news, they take on the Lethbridge Hurricanes tomorrow and Wednesday to keep the winning streak chugging along. They are number one in the WHL standings and ranked number one among all CHL teams.

I believe 50 below has the land adjacent to their practice facility where they have originally planned to build their arena.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dennis

I believe 50 below has the land adjacent to their practice facility where they have originally planned to build their arena.

The Rink is owned by a separate group... it was reported in the Free Press a while back that there was a 'parting of the ways' between 50 Below and The Rink's owners, so that is no longer on the table.

Unless maybe fences can be mended? It seemed like a logical partnership in many ways.

[dennis]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Rink is owned by a separate group... it was reported in the Free Press a while back that there was a 'parting of the ways' between 50 Below and The Rink's owners, so that is no longer on the table.

Unless maybe fences can be mended? It seemed like a logical partnership in many ways.

I remember now.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Only issue there is that the land may be too expensive for something like a junior rink... it could throw the economics of the plan out of whack. A partnership with the Kapyong consortium, the U of M, the Red River Ex or whomever could lead to 50 Below getting free land out of the deal to build on.

In other ICE news, they take on the Lethbridge Hurricanes tomorrow and Wednesday to keep the winning streak chugging along. They are number one in the WHL standings and ranked number one among all CHL teams.

They are 20-1 and almost at a 2-1 GF-GA. Are we sure they are in the right league?

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Or is it possible that it simply does not take 100% capacity crowd attendance to sustain these teams? If Chipman and Fettes are happy to keep running their teams in Winnipeg, are we going to call them up and tell them to move a couple of them out of town because we have decided it simply isn't feasible?

I'm not saying I want any of the teams gone. It's just reality. The Ice are dead last in attendance since they relocated to Winnipeg. The numbers are not sustainable. Since the Ice began play in Winnipeg, Moose attendance has dropped by 2,000 fans/game. The Moose had traditionally strong attendance, but now barely 3,000 fans show up.

Not having capacity crowds are one thing....but having 20% of a 15,300 seat arena full may be concerning.