PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Vince_

The massive vacant trash filled lot at 17th and Walnut where those buildings were lit on fire is not a good look. Also the city/neighborhood association should try and get a monthly event like First Friday in Old City. Imagine Walnut closed from 15th to 19th on the first Saturday of each month. Saturday makes most sense because that's when the vendors set up all around Rittenhouse Square. The sidewalks are pretty narrow and strolling in the street would be nice. But ultimately something has to give with the rents...

So Rittenhouse Row, but more frequent? I'm not against that.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Thanks for the insight W.V.A., it is as many of us have suspected. I also have never thought the lack of a "5th Ave." type stretch really mattered all that much. However, as more time goes on, I do believe it has a bit of a cascading effect on the whole retail landscape where middle-tier retailers don't even make the plunge and we are left with basically just outlets. I have made a conscience effort to buy more things in the city recently just because I worry more might close.

Not to bounce around topics too much too, because I do believe it's related, but saying "luxury brands don't think philly is a two store town" really makes me despise KOP even more and I truly believe the rail line to it is a net negative for the city and region as a whole (especially considering the price tag and what it could alternatively be used for).

I understand your point regarding “Walnut doesn’t necessarily need to be a 5th Ave” - I don’t really shop the really high end clothing stores myself, but they are an amenity and lure wealthy people to visit, shop, dine and live in the city. Furthermore, considering we’re all on this forum and value attractive skyscrapers like Arthaus, The Laurel etc, having a luxury oriented high street would certainly encourage more demand in the area for these types of buildings. That being said and as has been mentioned, I suppose it becomes a symbiotic effect in that high end retailers also need nearby high paying customers.

To be fair, pre-pandemic Walnut St had a pretty good run at becoming a legitimate high street within the last decade. As (pseudonym) William Van Alen said with that additions of Arthaus, The Laurel etc, it may start to kick into gear again within the next few years again and maybe start to duplicate some of KOP’s high end brands. The last two years have been a mess for retail so perhaps it’s difficult to make any hard and fast judgments at the moment, but hopefully things are starting to get back on track.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by William Van Alen

Long time lurker, first time poster here. Took the name of the Chrysler Building's architect as my username because it's my favorite skyscraper and this is skyscraperpage lol.

I used to work in downtown economic development (can't say more than that) so I'd like to chime in with a few points re: West Walnut.

Somebody mentioned that there needs to be more collaboration between the various agencies/bids/interest groups. Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, there is zero collaboration to speak of and there probably never will be as long as each stakeholder continues to see any other group as stepping on its toes. Each agency/group "stays in their lane" so to speak and they do not talk to each other much at all. It was honestly quite sad to see.

The Verizon/Cheesecake factory property is home to the most expensive retail lease in the city. That Verizon pays a lot of rent, which I suppose justifies the absurd underutilization of that prime corner.

Unfortunately, a lot of the luxury stores that some people would like to see in CC are already in KOP. Most of those retailers still don't see Philly as a two store market. That may change in the future with all the new luxury towers like Arthaus, Laurel, and potentially "Harper Square", but until they start to see more wealthy people in the Center City market, I really don't think we'll get any luxury retail any time soon. Frankly, I've never thought it's important. We could have a perfectly good retail scene without having a proper "high street", but everybody has a different opinion on this. I know the high street topic has been hashed out on here many times (like I said, long time lurker) so I won't say any more on that.

Most landlords, as has been mentioned, are holding out for something bigger and better in CC and seem to have enough capital to wait however long they need to. I remember speaking with some landlords who were so nonchalant about filling their retail spaces that I was genuinely kind of shocked, since they're losing tens of thousands of dollars in cash flow each year that those spaces sit vacant. I think part of the problem has been that for the last few years (before the pandemic, of course) the primary tenants looking for new space were food-related. Usually either fast casual lunch spots for office workers or more upscale restaurants. If your space isn't equipped for food service, that's an expensive fit-out that a lot of landlords aren't willing to take on if another massive corporation (like Verizon at 15th) is willing to come in a few years down the road and pay 2-3x market rent for your space. That's just a much better deal for the landlords in the long run so they're willing to make that bet and play the long game. Same thing seems to be happening a lot in other high end retail districts, especially in Manhattan.

Lastly, there used to be a zoning overlay that prohibited bank branches and several other types of uses on parts of Walnut (and maybe Chestnut?) in CC. When re-zonings were done under the Nutter admin., those were scrapped in favor of greater uniformity in the zoning code. Overlays seem to be back in style, for better or for worse, and I know there's some push from certain parts of the business community to get that overlay back. Not sure if any councilmembers feel that pressure enough to actually bring it up, but maybe somebody will eventually. Seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping CC strictly for retail/dining.

Thank you! Very well said. A lot of us have been scratching our heads about Walnut, so it’s nice to have it explained by someone in the know. Sounds like you summed it all up.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

What exactly do you mean by the bold part? Just curious.

Re: the dining scene, actually this is probably just a generational thing and probably true of a lot of similar areas in other cities. I just meant the hottest and hippest dining scene is certainly not in Rittenhouse, compared to Fishtown, Kensington, and Passyunk, but high end is certainly there. There is also a weird amount of fast food, though a lot of it has closed recently, but you would expect the dining experiences to be even more urban-chic than they are. They're either stuffy or casual, but not as much in the way of JG Skyhigh that hits fancy AND cool. Just imo

[PHL10]

But Walnut was never an exclusively high end strip and I'm thinking we are creating a strawman here. Me and my family frequented H&M, Zaras, City Sports, the Gap, Vans, Northface, etc. It once had a host of typical mid-end mall type stores which are mostly gone and that is the problem, not that we don't have Gucci or whatever.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Re: the dining scene, actually this is probably just a generational thing and probably true of a lot of similar areas in other cities. I just meant the hottest and hippest dining scene is certainly not in Rittenhouse, compared to Fishtown, Kensington, and Passyunk, but high end is certainly there. There is also a weird amount of fast food, though a lot of it has closed recently, but you would expect the dining experiences to be even more urban-chic than they are. They're either stuffy or casual, but not as much in the way of JG Skyhigh that hits fancy AND cool. Just imo

Gotcha. Dining hipness usually follows the new hot neighborhoods. The Gayborhood is a past example, but has remained a hotspot even as the area changed. Rittenhouse reminds me of the Upper East Side or Gold Coast, a lot of stalwarts, with a new concept here and there, but on the predictable side for offerings. Still many great ones though! (Harder and more expensive to experiment in Rittenhouse compared to Fishtown, so yes, part generational.)

But I am happy to see typical fast food places replaced with better fast casual concepts like Dig, &Pizza, Sweetgreen, etc. I know some lament their loss since they are cheap.

JG and the ground level Vernick Fish are amazing. But more of an anomaly since they are associated with Comcast and the 4 Seasons, but of course I'd love to see more similar concepts. The new W Hotel offerings are quite nice, but the crowd becomes a bit questionable after a certain hour.

I'm sure the Hyatt Bellevue revamp will introduce a similar concept to the 4 Seasons though.


P.S The Library Bar adjacent to Scarpetta in the Rittenhouse Hotel is another great spot, worth a visit if you dine in the area.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Not to bounce around topics too much too, because I do believe it's related, but saying "luxury brands don't think philly is a two store town" really makes me despise KOP even more and I truly believe the rail line to it is a net negative for the city and region as a whole (especially considering the price tag and what it could alternatively be used for).

Metros are going to either work together or they are going to keep up the us vs them mentality that has caused a lot of damage. KOP is now the 2nd largest employment center in the area* and it continues to grow. On the flip side, how many KOP folks work in the city? I can understand questioning the cost but some kind of connection needs to happen. I am in KOP often and the bus stops around the mall and heading down 202 are overflowing on some days, and many of those folks are heading to the transportation center in Norristown.

KOP is like our version of Tysons Corner and we would be foolish not to make this as mutually beneficial as possible.

*3rd if you separate Center City and University City.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Gotcha. Dining hipness usually follows the new hot neighborhoods. The Gayborhood is a past example, but has remained a hotspot even as the area changed. Rittenhouse reminds me of the Upper East Side or Gold Coast, a lot of stalwarts, with a new concept here and there, but on the predictable side for offerings. Still many great ones though! (Harder and more expensive to experiment in Rittenhouse compared to Fishtown, so yes, part generational.)

But I am happy to see typical fast food places replaced with better fast casual concepts like Dig, &Pizza, Sweetgreen, etc. I know some lament their loss since they are cheap.

Agreed. The 'hippest' restaurants are rarely in the most established neighborhoods.

The new W Hotel offerings are quite nice, but the crowd becomes a bit questionable after a certain hour.

This is an incredibly racially coded assessment of the W's "offerings". So what you are saying is the crowd is (mostly) black. Though it might not be "your" crowd; it doesn't mean there's anything questionable about it.

I stayed at the W to take advantage of the pool in the late fall before it got super cold and my take on "the crowd" was that it was really refreshing to see an upscale spot that was welcoming and friendly to the black professional class in Philadelphia.

Many of us have lamented that Philadelphia is losing middle class black people in droves to not just the suburbs, but to regions that have carved out spaces (culturally, professionally, etc) for upwardly mobile black people, like DC, Atlanta, Dallas, etc. That is not just about schools, or taxes, or red tape in government when starting a business, but also about social spaces and community and the ability to network.

The few nights I've hung out at the W my assessment was the exact opposite of yours. I was happy that such a social space even exists in the city. I hope more follow. It felt more like a night out in Atlanta or Dallas than it did in Philadelphia.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PHL10

But Walnut was never an exclusively high end strip and I'm thinking we are creating a strawman here. Me and my family frequented H&M, Zaras, City Sports, the Gap, Vans, Northface, etc. It once had a host of typical mid-end mall type stores which are mostly gone and that is the problem, not that we don't have Gucci or whatever.

Agreed. While there are 2 H&M's in Center City, and I don't think there needs to be a 3rd, Walnut Street has lost more than just the uber luxury brands.

There are still some luxury brands on Walnut - Tiffany & Co., Vince, Theory, Rag & Bone, etc... Walnut Street can't seem to keep a lot of retailers in general. All parties with interest in Walnut Street need to come together and work together to rebuild Walnut Street into something we can be proud of.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Agreed. While there are 2 H&M's in Center City, and I don't think there needs to be a 3rd, Walnut Street has lost more than just the uber luxury brands.

There are still some luxury brands on Walnut - Tiffany & Co., Vince, Theory, Rag & Bone, etc... Walnut Street can't seem to keep a lot of retailers in general. All parties with interest in Walnut Street need to come together and work together to rebuild Walnut Street into something we can be proud of.

Is Barneys Philly still around? I think it was on 18th/Walnut.

[Busy Bee]

Anyone care to ponder if this tragedy has any kind of modified building code implications?

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Re: the dining scene, actually this is probably just a generational thing and probably true of a lot of similar areas in other cities. I just meant the hottest and hippest dining scene is certainly not in Rittenhouse, compared to Fishtown, Kensington, and Passyunk, but high end is certainly there. There is also a weird amount of fast food, though a lot of it has closed recently, but you would expect the dining experiences to be even more urban-chic than they are. They're either stuffy or casual, but not as much in the way of JG Skyhigh that hits fancy AND cool. Just imo

Parc? Parc is still probably one of the best restaurants in Philadelphia.

I think there are quite a lot in Rittenhouse Square that you're forgetting about too:
Parc
Barclay Prime
Rouge
Devon
The Love
The Dandelion
The Continental
Harp & Crown
Mission Taqueria
Oyster House
Ocean Prime
Butcher and Singer
Tequilas
Dizengoff
Abe Fisher
Village Whiskey
The Library Bar
Pub & Kitchen
SouthGate
Condesa
El Techo
Harper's Garden
Pizzeria Vetri
DanDan
Charley Dove (replaced Audrey Claire)
Friday Saturday Sunday
Volver
Del Frisco's
El Rey
Butcher Bar
Dim Sum House by Jane G's
Veda
The Goat
Zama
Scarpetta
Bar Poulet
Gran Cafe L'Aquila
Tria
Bar Bombon
Monk's Cafe
Etc.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Is Barneys Philly still around? I think it was on 18th/Walnut.

Barney's New York went bankrupt and went out of business a few years back.

[nemesisinphilly]

Is there a CDR meeting this month? I haven't seen an agenda posted for Jan yet.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Parc? Parc is still probably one of the best restaurants in Philadelphia.

I think there are quite a lot in Rittenhouse Square that you're forgetting about too:
Parc
Barclay Prime
Rouge
Devon
The Love
The Dandelion
The Continental
Harp & Crown
Mission Taqueria
Oyster House
Ocean Prime
Butcher and Singer
Tequilas
Dizengoff
Abe Fisher
Village Whiskey
The Library Bar
Pub & Kitchen
SouthGate
Condesa
El Techo
Harper's Garden
Pizzeria Vetri
DanDan
Charley Dove (replaced Audrey Claire)
Friday Saturday Sunday
Volver
Del Frisco's
El Rey
Butcher Bar
Dim Sum House by Jane G's
Veda
The Goat
Zama
Scarpetta
Bar Poulet
Gran Cafe L'Aquila
Tria
Bar Bombon
Monk's Cafe
Etc.

Two of my favorite restaurants in the whole city are the Dandelion and Gran Cafe L'Aquila.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

Is there a CDR meeting this month? I haven't seen an agenda posted for Jan yet.

The one for January looks like it was cancelled. Next CDR is February 1st which means the projects going to the CDR for the meeting should be posted in 2 weeks.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Thanks for the insight W.V.A., it is as many of us have suspected. I also have never thought the lack of a "5th Ave." type stretch really mattered all that much. However, as more time goes on, I do believe it has a bit of a cascading effect on the whole retail landscape where middle-tier retailers don't even make the plunge and we are left with basically just outlets. I have made a conscience effort to buy more things in the city recently just because I worry more might close.

Not to bounce around topics too much too, because I do believe it's related, but saying "luxury brands don't think philly is a two store town" really makes me despise KOP even more and I truly believe the rail line to it is a net negative for the city and region as a whole (especially considering the price tag and what it could alternatively be used for).

There's no reason to despise KOP. This one is all on Philadelphia. We cannot blame KOP. Plus, without KOP at this point, most of these stores would have no presence in the Philadelphia Region at all.

Furthermore, there's no doubt there's more wealth around KOP than Center City Philadelphia. The city just needs to continue to build up, improve it's image, attract wealth and tourists and the retail will eventually follow.

Every major metropolitan area is able to support a shopping and retail corridor in the city limits, and in an upscale shopping mall outside of the city - NYC, LA, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Washington DC, Miami.... Philadelphia needs to do the same. All parties with interest in Walnut Street need to work together to rebuild it as a quality retail corridor so we can have BOTH Center City and KOP.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PHL10

But Walnut was never an exclusively high end strip and I'm thinking we are creating a strawman here. Me and my family frequented H&M, Zaras, City Sports, the Gap, Vans, Northface, etc. It once had a host of typical mid-end mall type stores which are mostly gone and that is the problem, not that we don't have Gucci or whatever.

I think it’s important to note how things were trending prior to the pandemic. I remember around 2008, the most high end clothing store was Brooks Brothers. Subsequently, around 2010 it quickly started to attract more high end retailers like Barney’s, Vince, Theory, Burberry etc. I’m not sure if that’s necessarily a strawman. Obviously, the rise of online shopping and the pandemic killed the momentum. Also, most urban high streets in the US aren’t exclusively high end. Newbury in Boston maybe has one block that is exclusively luxury brands but then it sort of trickles out the further you go from the Common. I don’t think anyone is saying that Walnut should or can be like Mayfair but at this point something similar to Newbury shouldn’t be too much to ask for.

[summersm343]

Apartment Building Under Construction at 6th & Moore, Behind a Row of Homes

Site in the past:


Current view of 6th & Moore:


New homes on McClellan Street:


6th & Moore Rendering:


6th & Moore Rendering:


7th and Moore Rendering:


Read/view more here:
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phil...a-row-of-homes

[mcgrath618]

The 6th and Moore apartment development looks great. Excited to see those go up.

Those townhomes would look amazing if they just had a cornice... how hard would it have been, even just a simple one?