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  #401  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 7:33 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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^Black isn't an ethnic group, so I'm sure they'd correct that too. Especially in NYC, where that truth is glaringly obvious.
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  #402  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 7:42 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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At the time, they (mainly) meant African American. They did mention the older West Indian community though. In the 1920s about a quarter of the black population was West Indian. By the 1960s the share that was West Indian origin was probably 10% as the Second Great Migration increased the AA population. But then Caribbean immigration took off again. Today I think NYC blacks are roughly evenly split between AA and West Indian.
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  #403  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 7:47 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
At the time, they (mainly) meant African American. They did mention the older West Indian community though. In the 1920s about a quarter of the black population was West Indian. By the 1960s the share that was West Indian origin was probably 10% as the Second Great Migration increased the AA population. But then Caribbean immigration took off again. Today I think NYC blacks are roughly evenly split between AA and West Indian.
Almost certainly more West Indians in NYC than AA, but maybe even metro wide. And I would guess that about 10-20% of the Black population in NYC is African immigrant or first generation.
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  #404  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 7:56 PM
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Today, Dominicans and Chinese would be added as major ethnic groups in NYC. Even if the Irish stay on the list, we're probably at less than two-thirds with seven groups.

There's likely more South Asians than Irish Americans in the five boroughs at this point.
When did the Chinese start to be a major presence in NYC (I'm guessing it might have taken over some west coast spots for largest presence similar to in terms of timing, Canada's switchover of Toronto from Vancouver as largest Chinese population).

Yet East Coast Chinatowns including NYC probably have enough of a history that New Yorkers wouldn't forget that they don't exist. Surely, the history and jokes/humor of Jewish patronage of Chinese restaurants must heavily feature in awareness of the Chinese at least existing for a sizeable number of generations (even if in small numbers) as a community in NYC.
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  #405  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Almost certainly more West Indians in NYC than AA, but maybe even metro wide. And I would guess that about 10-20% of the Black population in NYC is African immigrant or first generation.
Isn't there a lot of mixed ancestry so it'd be hard to tell, right? Does self-report capture it accurately.

For white Americans, there's a trend of identifying with the most recent immigrant group -- e.g. someone mixed colonial English-origin Yankee with Irish or German or whatever will report Irish and German but ignore English.

Is there a similar phenomenon with African Americans? Would a mixed Jamaican-old South African American tend to report "Jamaican"?
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  #406  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
At the time, they (mainly) meant African American. They did mention the older West Indian community though. In the 1920s about a quarter of the black population was West Indian. By the 1960s the share that was West Indian origin was probably 10% as the Second Great Migration increased the AA population. But then Caribbean immigration took off again. Today I think NYC blacks are roughly evenly split between AA and West Indian.
Was there ever a specific term that local AA used to distinguish themselves from later immigrant-origin blacks or endonyms/exonyms used at the time the two groups had for each other (I mean, black would have been ambiguous even then, right, from an outsider's perspective the color line dominated, but members of a group tend to draw distinctions lost on outsiders like assimilated German Jews did with their later Eastern European peers, or how there are more specific terms for "old stock Hispanics" in the Southwest USA etc. Tejanos, Hispanos, Californios etc. It's not uncommon for insider/outsider lines to be drawn differently looking in and out)?

Kind of reminds me of how "Scots-Irish" later distinguished themselves from Irish Catholics but they didn't need to make this distinction until the latter were arriving in large numbers.

I guess in much of US history, there were not enough non-"old stock" AA to define themselves in opposition to.
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  #407  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:12 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Isn't there a lot of mixed ancestry so it'd be hard to tell, right? Does self-report capture it accurately.
Yes, quite a bit but I'm almost certain that New Yorkers with all West Indian lineage outnumber those with only African American lineage. West Indians are still migrating to NYC from the Caribbean, but African Americans have mostly been migrating out of NYC. It is a fairly similar trend to Dominicans and Puerto Ricans. Puerto Ricans have not been receiving replacement influx from the island as PRs that have been here for a while have started to migrate to the suburbs or other parts of the country. Dominicans are still migrating to the U.S., and the communities here already are still relatively early arrivals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
For white Americans, there's a trend of identifying with the most recent immigrant group -- e.g. someone mixed colonial English-origin Yankee with Irish or German or whatever will report Irish and German but ignore English.

Is there a similar phenomenon with African Americans? Would a mixed Jamaican-old South African American tend to report "Jamaican"?
I think it's the opposite. West Indians tend to identify as African American the longer they are here. A lot of the 90s era New York rappers came from early wave West Indian families but tended to identify as African American. This also happens with some dark skinned Hispanics from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, etc.
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  #408  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:21 PM
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Even the old line AA neighborhoods are pretty African and Carribean these days. Black people in Bed Stuy and Harlem are often of recent immigrant heritage, and those are the quintessential AA NYC neighborhoods (granted, both neighborhoods are nowhere near as black as in past years).

But the outlying black neighborhoods - places like East Flatbush, Canarsie, parts of SE Queens and NE Bronx, are very heavily West Indian. I don't think you find a ton of people originally from the Carolinas or wherever. Same for inner burbs. Mt. Vernon, in Westchester, or Irvington, in NJ, or Elmont, on LI, are all heavily West Indian.

And probably the only area of the city where black share is growing is increasingly African. The mid-Concourse neighborhoods in the Bronx appear to be growing more black and less Hispanic, which is all due to African immigration. Almost everywhere else, the black share is stable or declining.
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  #409  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:22 PM
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How high is the intermarriage rate between "old stock (e.g. old southern)" AA and newer black immigrants? Do black immigrants tend to marry with other black immigrants, old stock AA, or non-blacks the most?

Kind of reminds me of other questions of immigrant intermarriage (e.g. do white ethnics marry white ethnics vs. old time WASPs, Asian/Hispanics other Asians or Hispanics of the same/different origin or different groups). But the black experience in the US is different I guess and that's been talked about a lot.
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  #410  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
How high is the intermarriage rate between "old stock (e.g. old southern)" AA and newer black immigrants? Do black immigrants tend to marry with other black immigrants, old stock AA, or non-blacks the most?
I think after 2-3 generations, most would identify as AA. People who stay for generations in deeply Caribbean areas, like East Flatbush, might be exceptions.

I think it also may vary a bit by background? I've noticed those from Trinidad really like to emphasize their Trini background. Maybe bc I think they're more an African-South Asian mix? Guyanese and Belizeans and Panamanians have aspects where they may or may not be West Indian. Also there are some subtle (to outsiders) cultural and ethnic differences. Guyanese would merge into South Asian identity. Panamanians speak Spanish but in NYC identify more with black culture than Latino culture, Dominicans are often adamant that they're not of Afro-Carribean heritage and overlap more with PRs and Colombians.
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  #411  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:29 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
How high is the intermarriage rate between "old stock (e.g. old southern)" AA and newer black immigrants? Do black immigrants tend to marry with other black immigrants, old stock AA, or non-blacks the most?
I doubt that's tracked in detail by anyone, but it's probably common for well educated AAs to marry Black immigrants or first generation.
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  #412  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:21 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Chinese population, NYC:

1980 124,372 1.8%
1990 240,014 3.3%
2000 374,321 4.7%
2010 486,463 6%
2021 603,040 7.1%
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  #413  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:25 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Posted this on page 15 of this thread. First- and second-generation West Indians made up 11% of NYC's population ca. 2005.

Source: John Mollnenkopf, Immigrant Political Empowerment in New York and Los Angeles (2008)
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  #414  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:37 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Pre-1965 legacy groups: Jews (11.5%), African Americans (maybe 10%?), Puerto Ricans (7%), Italians (6%), Irish (4%)

Less than 40% now.

Leading post-1965 groups: West Indians (est. 11%), Dominicans (9%), Chinese (7%)
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  #415  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2024, 11:17 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Birthplace of Black immigrants in New York State (2018)

Jamaica 226,898
Haiti 126,572
Trinidad and Tobago 73,294
Guyana 60,896
Ghana 35,838
Nigeria 34,671
Barbados 25,836
Grenada 24,732
Africa, ns/nec 14,325
Western Africa, ns 11,875
St. Vincent 13,274
St. Lucia 9,612
West Indies, ns 8,919
Antigua-Barbuda 7,648
Senegal 7,104
Ethiopia 7,008
Caribbean, ns 5,239

https://depts.washington.edu/moving1/NewYork.shtml
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