CHICAGO | General Discussions

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

So we're just gonna act like this isn't gonna be catastrophic for downtown...okay.

We're also going to act like everyone has a home office setup actually suitable for real work, not just a laptop on a kitchen table with tons of distractions around?

WFH is wonderful, I'm sure, for those who have a good setup. It's going to destroy downtowns, though.

Edit: keep in mind that WFH is also exasperating the differences between the haves and have nots, given most lower paying jobs are on-site and many higher paying jobs are now WFH. So now the working class still must deal with committing costs (monetary and time), while others just lost an Albatross. Good times, at least for those who aren't working class or below!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[west-town-brad]

WFH will not kill cities

WFH will likely kill some but not all commercial real estate

People still want to live in cities and its not all about being close to an office

Downtowns and regions of cities that are mostly commercial office, will have to be reinvented - But that's what cities do all the time

my neighborhood used to be quite during the work day since most people were in the loop for the 9-5 job, now the loop is quite during the work day and my neighborhood is bustling all day every day

[marothisu]

The Loop proper SHOULD have more residential regardless of if its now or it was 5 years ago.. It's weird such an urban looking neighborhood doesn't have more residents outside of a few pockets.

My office has been hybrid since the summer and it is nice, I'll admit. I like being in the office but some days when I really need to concentrate, being at home is better. When I need to be heads down on something, I get more work done at home. Less people distracting me. Early in my career though (long before the pandemic), we would work at home once a week. I wasn't the same and didn't have even close to the level of responsibility as I have today. I spent a lot of those days sleeping, getting stuff to eat watching TV, etc. I was able to get most of my work done in 4 days a week actually and that us telling..but another story.

I think WFH benefits people who are further in their career TBH. People who are younger and early in their careers can benefit from being in the office sometimes.

Anyway, if this means we'll see some office convert to residential and retail/commercial there stays open later then I'm all for it. If successful, I think it's actually pretty important for the long term success of downtown.

[Rizzo]

Full remote work won’t last long. To those long employed with a company, it’s a wonderful benefit. You’ve proven yourself capable and coworkers and bosses know you well and and respect you based on all those years prior to the pandemic and still getting work done during it. To those coming in, it’s more challenging to adapt the workplace. Harder to ask questions and resolve complex situations. Ultimately there will be shift back to hybrid. I believe these companies may prove themselves more capable.

It’s the same psychology how people behave online. No one solves problems easily on Facebook. Same thing applied to the workplace. A new hire sending you 5 emails in an hour how to do something a certain way gets annoying. A brief conversation of the same content at the office is a lot easier.

I think this boom of workplace productivity software is trying to resolve remote work deficiencies, but it’s more of a crutch.

Then there’s the social aspect. I credit my first job in the city with building my social life starting out. Having many coworkers of the same age and we’d go to bulls games, happy hours or even just get lunch. Imagine a college grad with no money starting out at a full remote office. It’s not like you have all the money to live some place extravagant. If it’s an expensive city you’ll get a studio apartment or a coffee shop for the office but that isolation will get old.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Oh I know. It's just strange on an urbanist forum people are cheering this on. Widespread remote work has people leaving dense areas and heading to suburbia, accelerating sprawl and killing the vibrancy of a city. I have nothing against remote work. I feel like a hybrid schedule is best for the city. But if people think all these companies going 100% remote wont hurt the city are delusional.

There is a LOT of hypocrisy around here. You’ve just hit the tip of the iceberg

In the end, when all is said and done, most people—urbanist by claim or not—are very self centered. To hell with what else is going on out there. As the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

A downtown that becomes just a sleepy residential enclave. Imagine the excitement!

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

WFH will not kill cities

WFH will likely kill some but not all commercial real estate

People still want to live in cities and its not all about being close to an office

Downtowns and regions of cities that are mostly commercial office, will have to be reinvented - But that's what cities do all the time

my neighborhood used to be quite during the work day since most people were in the loop for the 9-5 job, now the loop is quite during the work day and my neighborhood is bustling all day every day

This is overly simplistic

Commercial properties generate TONS more traffic to local businesses and revenue for cities than residential does.

This is a major financial loss for the city and downtown. It will never be the same. Let’s not deny reality

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

There is a LOT of hypocrisy around here. You’ve just hit the tip of the iceberg

In the end, when all is said and done, most people—urbanist by claim or not—are very self centered. To hell with what else is going on out there. As the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

A downtown that becomes just a sleepy residential enclave. Imagine the excitement!

Talk about it...if all these companies go remote, all these mid day restaurants would have little reason to stay open because their main clientele has gone extinct. We should be advocating for hybrid work, not 100% remote. And just outside of the urbanist world, people need social interaction with each other. The Loop is far from a ghost town like how it was March/April 2020 and has come back alive, but its not like it was pre 2020, lets not kid ourselves.

Another thing these delusional "nOtHiNg WrOnG wItH rEmOtE wOrK" people are missing is that this will harm support for public transit. Ridership for CTA is no where near it was pre-2020. Same with Manhattan/MTA. Politicians will think why support more funding for transit when less people are taking it and more people are driving?

Be careful what you wish for..

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

This is overly simplistic

Commercial properties generate TONS more traffic to local businesses and revenue for cities than residential does.

This is a major financial loss for the city and downtown. It will never be the same. Let’s not deny reality

This. People are delusional acting like everything will be the same. State st is filled with vacant storefronts.

I was just in Manhattan last month and its worse their than in Chicago. Whole streets just filled with blank storefronts. The city was back alive with pedestrians all over, but the commercial properties leaving New York has left a noticeable difference.

The suburbs right now are more expensive than the city. People got mad when the NY governer was advocating for workers to return to the city, but she said nothing wrong.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Rizzo

It’s the same psychology how people behave online. No one solves problems easily on Facebook. Same thing applied to the workplace. A new hire sending you 5 emails in an hour how to do something a certain way gets annoying. A brief conversation of the same content at the office is a lot easier.

Who the hell writes emails for real time collaboration? If that's your idea of how people collaborate these days for work online then you are probably about a decade behind the times.

It's definitely not the same as Facebook. Why? Because people are actually getting paid and there are repercussions for not delivering quality work on time, committing obvious HR violations, etc.

As someone who does actually manage teams and have to look out for their employees' career progression, I think it's more complex especially when you are at a large company that collaborates with people all around the world. On a daily basis, in real time, my team problem solves with other people in the Bay Area, NYC, Seattle, India (a handful of hours a day), Dallas, Ohio, Philadelphia, Florida, Arizona, etc. This wasn't a pandemic change - this has been the way we've been working since I joined over 7 years ago.

During the pandemic, none of my teams were told to deliver less than we normally would. Actually we had to deliver more due to the sector of work we're in and our responsibilities. We ended up adapting fairly quickly and being able to do it fully remotely. We delivered more work during 2020 than we did in 2019, even with a sudden increase in March/April being told that we had to deliver even more work.

I can see how if someone only ever worked for small companies that they cannot fathom how to problem solve remotely, but for those of us who have worked or do work for large corporations with teams around the country and sometimes the globe, this is nothing new. I've been working this way for over a decade.

NOW with that being said, I am not for fully remote work especially for my team. Most of my peers aren't either. At minimum the hybrid model, but if my overlords told me we had to be in the office every single day I wouldn't be at all upset. Actually, none of my team would be as we love to work together in person.

I think there are huge benefits to being in the office, but it really depends on the type of work you do and where you are at in your career. I hired someone junior fairly recently who has needed a bit of help. We've been able to do it remotely (due to Omicron we went from hybrid to fully remote temporarily). He was able to get all the help and what not, but I kept thinking that overall it would have probably taken a few less hours total if it were in person. Overtime that has big benefits.

Hybrid is what a lot of companies will adopt and people will need to adopt too. I think commercial real estate landlords will adapt as well and probably be "forced" to convert some off space to residential. Nobody ever said all of it or most of it (TUP?). I think a healthy downtown though doesn't sway one way or another - there should be a healthy mix of office, residential, commercial, etc.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Rizzo

Full remote work won’t last long. To those long employed with a company, it’s a wonderful benefit. You’ve proven yourself capable and coworkers and bosses know you well and and respect you based on all those years prior to the pandemic and still getting work done during it. To those coming in, it’s more challenging to adapt the workplace. Harder to ask questions and resolve complex situations. Ultimately there will be shift back to hybrid. I believe these companies may prove themselves more capable.

It’s the same psychology how people behave online. No one solves problems easily on Facebook. Same thing applied to the workplace. A new hire sending you 5 emails in an hour how to do something a certain way gets annoying. A brief conversation of the same content at the office is a lot easier.

I think this boom of workplace productivity software is trying to resolve remote work deficiencies, but it’s more of a crutch.

Then there’s the social aspect. I credit my first job in the city with building my social life starting out. Having many coworkers of the same age and we’d go to bulls games, happy hours or even just get lunch. Imagine a college grad with no money starting out at a full remote office. It’s not like you have all the money to live some place extravagant. If it’s an expensive city you’ll get a studio apartment or a coffee shop for the office but that isolation will get old.

I can see the arguments for getting back into the office, but the reality is, the pandemic has proven companies can thrive without having people come into the office.....

No way anyone is going in five days a week anymore. I flew out to Colorado for a week back in July just to get some in-person time with a few folks. And honestly, I don't feel I got much out of it. Our company is so damn spread out now with employees from Tel Aviv to San Diego, there's just no reason for me to be tied down to any city just to go into an office one or two days a week. If that in-person working is absolutely needed, then fly me out a couple weeks a quarter, or a month a year. I have no problems with that, but I don't expect any company to mandate I uproot my life to move somewhere I don't want to be based out of. There's plenty of ways you can get the best of both worlds still while still being mostly remote. And if you hate working from home, get a WeWork global access pass.

I definitely see parts of downtown, like the loop, getting hurt from this. But, across various neighborhoods, I don't see the harm. People love to be in the city within walking distance to everything they need. If anything, I see working from home increasing the desire to be closer to that, as opposed to the suburbs where you have to hop in the car to go anywhere. But maybe I'm just an overly optimistic urbanist.

Thirdly, you should never rely on work to build out a social network. They are your co-workers, not your friends. You should absolutely get along with them, but don't rely on them. Again, I go to WeWork and get great social interactions with folks there, and they aren't my co-workers, which makes it even more fun because there aren't really rules. There's professional networking events and groups you can easily be a part of to meet folks and build out social networks that way.

Anyways..... The point is I think permanent remote work may hurt core parts of downtown, but I don't see it hurting the city overall.

[GarfieldMcTavish]

Originally Posted by Chisouthside

I feel like it's already lost it's sleeper vibe tbh and if I was you I would buy sooner than later if you're trying to find a place to raise a family. The neighborhood itself is pretty chill and a few of my CPS classmates decided to buy here to raise their families rather than move to the burbs and they seem pretty content.

Thanks for sharing.

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by twister244

I can see the arguments for getting back into the office, but the reality is, the pandemic has proven companies can thrive without having people come into the office.....

No way anyone is going in five days a week anymore. I flew out to Colorado for a week back in July just to get some in-person time with a few folks. And honestly, I don't feel I got much out of it. Our company is so damn spread out now with employees from Tel Aviv to San Diego, there's just no reason for me to be tied down to any city just to go into an office one or two days a week. If that in-person working is absolutely needed, then fly me out a couple weeks a quarter, or a month a year. I have no problems with that, but I don't expect any company to mandate I uproot my life to move somewhere I don't want to be based out of. There's plenty of ways you can get the best of both worlds still while still being mostly remote. And if you hate working from home, get a WeWork global access pass.

I definitely see parts of downtown, like the loop, getting hurt from this. But, across various neighborhoods, I don't see the harm. People love to be in the city within walking distance to everything they need. If anything, I see working from home increasing the desire to be closer to that, as opposed to the suburbs where you have to hop in the car to go anywhere. But maybe I'm just an overly optimistic urbanist.

Thirdly, you should never rely on work to build out a social network. They are your co-workers, not your friends. You should absolutely get along with them, but don't rely on them. Again, I go to WeWork and get great social interactions with folks there, and they aren't my co-workers, which makes it even more fun because there aren't really rules. There's professional networking events and groups you can easily be a part of to meet folks and build out social networks that way.

Anyways..... The point is I think permanent remote work may hurt core parts of downtown, but I don't see it hurting the city overall.

Yes it is. The suburbs are now more expensive than the city, that wasn't the case pre-2020. If all these companies go permanent remote work, it's going to kill foot traffic and vibrancy. Y'all sound way too optimistic here...

[Rizzo]

Seriously some of you spent 5 paragraphs picking apart my post. I think we agree on more than you think.

[Kngkyle]

Companies that go fully remote will ultimately either fail or revert back to a hybrid-model. The sudden switch to remote work was largely successful in corporate America because everyone was running off of relationships that had been built in-person prior to the pandemic.

Hybrid will be the new normal. 2-3 days per week in office, 2-3 days per week at home.

The people most fucked over by fully remote work are new grads just starting out. If we thought mental health was an issue before covid....

[Steely Dan]

Being self-employed and working out of my own house for most of the pandemic has led me to really dislike 100% WFH.

I don't exactly want to go back to the bad old days of the rigid 9-5 / M-F grind, but flexible hybrid models sound ideal to me.

[thegoatman]

^Exactly. I think the Loop and the city in general can return to its general level of vibrancy and foot traffic if hybrid becomes standard, but 100% remote, no way. Same with the CTA.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

my neighborhood used to be quite during the work day since most people were in the loop for the 9-5 job, now the loop is quite during the work day and my neighborhood is bustling all day every day

Since moving back we've been really busy but gotten out to Wicker Park a handful of times. I've been impressed on Division and Milwaukee Ave for it how many people have been out even when it's cold. Today we were there and there were way more people outside walking than when I moved away from Chicago in 2016 on a similar cold day. Back then it seemed like it would be dead on the sidewalks. Today? It was like 20 degrees and felt like 5+ years ago when it would be in the 50s outside. It just felt different - in a very, very good way.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Being self-employed and working out of my own house for most of the pandemic has led me to really dislike 100% WFH.

I don't exactly want to go back to the bad old days of the rigid 9-5 / M-F grind, but flexible hybrid models sound ideal to me.

I think hybrid is pretty ideal. 100% WFH actually nearly burned me out with the work load. Everyone knows you are there all the time too and they use it as an excuse to try and schedule 500 meetings a day. Hybrid is good because it gives you some time where people can't bother you as much in person but then you can be in the office 2 or 3 days a week and get the benefits from those types if interactions too. Again, depends on what type of work you do but for what I do, hybrid is pretty good. A few days in the office a week is good enough to deal with the types of things more suited for in person but everyone also needs at least 2 days of heads down concentration.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Companies that go fully remote will ultimately either fail or revert back to a hybrid-model. The sudden switch to remote work was largely successful in corporate America because everyone was running off of relationships that had been built in-person prior to the pandemic.

Hybrid will be the new normal. 2-3 days per week in office, 2-3 days per week at home.

The people most fucked over by fully remote work are new grads just starting out. If we thought mental health was an issue before covid....

Maybe I'm an anomaly then. Our company is based out of Boston, but only 40% of the people are in the Boston area. 10% is in Colorado. Another 30% is in Tel Aviv. The rest are literally spread out over the world. We were like this before Covid, so working between teams remotely was not a new thing for us. Even now, we have even more people spread out away from our offices.

I think the Hybrid model will work for many folks, but for many others, they will want the option to be permanently remote. I have a co-worker that is jumping between Colorado, Costa Rica, and South Africa.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Being self-employed and working out of my own house for most of the pandemic has led me to really dislike 100% WFH.

I don't exactly want to go back to the bad old days of the rigid 9-5 / M-F grind, but flexible hybrid models sound ideal to me.

Try out co-working spaces! Seriously..... Try out We-Work for a day and see if you like it. It's a great way to break that WFH routine without having to worry about a dedicated office.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Companies that go fully remote will ultimately either fail or revert back to a hybrid-model. The sudden switch to remote work was largely successful in corporate America because everyone was running off of relationships that had been built in-person prior to the pandemic.

Hybrid will be the new normal. 2-3 days per week in office, 2-3 days per week at home.

The people most fucked over by fully remote work are new grads just starting out. If we thought mental health was an issue before covid....

Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner!

WFH is just about a bunch of aging farts who want to sit on their asses and still get paid because they “paid their dues” and rode the train for “all those years”

Yeah well, those relationships and trust were already built.

If I’m the boss of a company, there ain’t no way in hell that I’m trusting a 22 year old grad that I’ve hardly met and who works from his apartment (or his parent’s house) that I’m getting productive work out of him. And if I’m that 22 year old, I’m pretty suspicious that I will never built a lucrative career doing that for the rest of my life, especially since a dude in the Philippines can do the same work as me for 1/5 the pay!

This is just bad, wishful thinking. Hybrid makes sense, but permanent WFH ultimately will lead to instability.