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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2008, 4:47 AM
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HooverDam HooverDam is offline
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Also, we shouldn't hate on gay men because they're just increasing our percentage chances of being able to land women! I attended a school that was 65% female and probably 20-30% gay among the males, it was awesome for us straight fellows. I dated a girl for 2.5 years who was WAY out of my league probably because she just didn't have many others choices at our school. So I encourage you to all 'become' gay
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2008, 7:28 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Also, we shouldn't hate on gay men because they're just increasing our percentage chances of being able to land women! I attended a school that was 65% female and probably 20-30% gay among the males, it was awesome for us straight fellows. I dated a girl for 2.5 years who was WAY out of my league probably because she just didn't have many others choices at our school. So I encourage you to all 'become' gay
OK, now you're speaking my language! (Although I'm already blessed with a gorgeous wife. I fooled someone way out of my league as well.)
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2008, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
You are right, we find marriage in the Bible established by God as a sacred and holy institution for one man and one woman to come together as one. It's also clear what the Bible teaches about homosexuality, like it or not. Thus, you are asking millions and millions of Americans to VOTE AGAINST their core values. How is that fair?
The bible also says, let those who are without sin cast the first stones. Why are you judging others based on consequences that sinners will supposedly face against God? The bible professes discontent with people of the same sex sharing bodies, this is not the issue with banning gay marriage, the issue is recieving government benefits through marriage, this is not a sin in itself and again does not affect you.

Btw, there is much evidence to suggest that the nature in which we have feelings for people is largely based on the anatomy of our bodies; they are basically extremely complex machines that aren't infallable, can and do malfunction. I know I sure as hell am not attracted whatsoever to men so it's not like I could suddenly change my mind, sexual attraction is a basic function of the body like eating and breathing, these exist for self preservation and continuation of the species.
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2008, 12:39 AM
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I have a hunch that someday down the road, the gays will have their victory in the Supreme Court and we'll be faced with the choice of either granting homosexuals full marital rights or just completely stripping any government recognition of marraige. That is, everyone would have to file seperate taxes, everyone would need wills/powers of attorney for your spouse to have any priority over your blood relatives when it comes to inheriting your estate or making medical decisions on your behalf, and the whole concept of divorce court would be unnecessary if the marraige had no legal standing to begin with (it would be like dumping a girlfriend/boyfriend is now, you're more or less on your own to fight over who gets what). Those are the two options I see as not being discriminatory.

I wonder how many 102 backers would be willing to go that far to preserve their whole man+woman ideal?
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2008, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
I dated a girl for 2.5 years who was WAY out of my league probably because she just didn't have many others choices at our school.
Wow, that really sucks for her. Sure she didn't have like Daddy issues or something? I mean really, where is this school that she couldn't meet anyone for 2.5 years?
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2008, 4:09 PM
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Nockkoto, I think more conservatives then you might think would be willing to go down that road, and not just for the purposes of being discriminatory. Its quite sad when the government must legitimize your marriage for it to be valid to you. Additionally, it strips people of choices when you have laws that say that marriage comes with XYZ bundle of rights and obligations. It's more in the sprit of freedom to keep marriage purely a religious/spiritual institution and then have people choose the legal ramifications for themselves. Also, this would solve the problem of "endorsement" whereby Paul doesn't want the government to sanction being gay by giving homosexuals the right to marry and Peter doesn't want to sanction polygamists by giving people the right to marry multiple spouses and Sue doesn't want to sanction marriage at all because she thinks that it is a vestige of the old patriarchy, etc. That’s why conservatives like Mike Huckabe among others agitate for this solution.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2008, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
OK, now you're speaking my language! (Although I'm already blessed with a gorgeous wife. I fooled someone way out of my league as well.)
You didn't take more than a few posts to explain your own blatant hypocrisy.

The Bible uses the same admonishments for the gays you posted above as for the straight couples that "fooled" as much as you probably have.

Why should you get a free pass until you're ready for your "blessed gorgeous wife?" Your act(s) of pre-marital sex are just as impure in God's eyes.

But you were given the opportunity of marriage, a holy path to follow, something to "settle down" into to repeat one of the most peculiar euphemisms for youth and all its indiscretions. Gays, by in large, have fittingly reacted with it's perpetual youth and all its indiscretions.

Personally, if the sluts and whores that I deal with in the gay community were at all like they were in Biblical times, I could see somebody's written justification for it. But I don't blame them. I've just taken a different path because I actually grew up and still have hope. I'm as disgusted by the community's anonymous oversexed tendencies just like the churches, but for different reasons. They fear the sin, I fear for our survival. I've seen the very, very real implications of what happens when it goes out of control. I have to sort through what's left of the broken relationships, the diseases, and the sluts and whores that have lost the purist feelings I long for.

I know way too many people with HIV.

Sometimes I question from my own perspective after seeing the community in its near-failed state whether it's really ready for marriage and its rights and responsibilities.

And then I see committed couples that actually have found true and everlasting love despite all the outward pressures against them. That gives me hope because there could be some long-term salvation yet.

Where in the Bible does God condemn a monogamous, commited, everlasting homosexual relationship? Every instance I see in the bible of homosexuality view inherently describes it along with a very slutty, murdering, raping, stealing sort of individuals. None of those campaigning for marriage equality are Sodomites for the true reasons that God destroyed that city.

Might I add that the author of Corinthians condoned slavery and scorned women. Thomas Jefferson thought he was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." And why do you tell me to ignore the part about Leviticus because it's in the old testament when you cite Genesis in the next post?

Do I still "reject" the Bible when I'm using the brain God gave me to question the motives of the mortal men that interpreted and re-interpreted what he said? When I question those who speak for God when the God I know is too awesome to be spoken for? When I wonder that if there were a devil, it would exist within the church as evidenced by your tone in this discussion? I don't reject the Bible. I reject those who pick and choose from the Bible to defend their own bigotry and chastise others as you have.

Last edited by combusean; Nov 9, 2008 at 5:43 AM.
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2008, 1:33 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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^ Wow, you seem really jaded about the gay community. Are you in a relationship now?

An interesting article I found online, which touches on some of the points you raised:

GAY RIGHTS ADVOCATES sometimes suggest that if the Bible condemns homosexuality, so much the worse for the Bible. Yet that position hardly works for everyone. Many people maintain that the Bible is the true word of God, and not all who do are die-hard homophobes. Some are social liberals who feel torn between their political and their religious convictions. Others are gay and lesbian youth who feel forced to choose between being gay and following God. To tell such people “so much the worse for the Bible” seems counterproductive, even cruel.

But what is the alternative? Is it possible to affirm the truth of the Bible yet deny the anti-gay conclusions the Church has drawn from it for centuries? To answer that question, I want to explore another case where the Church has re-interpreted Scripture: usury. For centuries the Catholic Church used the Bible to condemn the lending of money for interest — for any interest, not just excessive interest. Today it has more money in the bank than many major corporations. And its explanation for this shift — that cultural changes render the Biblical prohibitions inapplicable — works just as well for homosexuality as for interest banking.

The Bible condemns usury in no uncertain terms. In the Book of Exodus God says “if you lend money to my people, to the poor among you. you shall not exact interest from them” (22: 25). The fifteenth Psalm says that those who lend at interest may not abide in the Lord's tent or dwell on his holy hill (1-5). Ezekiel compares usury to adultery, robbery, idolatry, and bribery, and asks whether he who “takes advanced or accrued interest; shall he then live? He shall not. He. shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.” (18: 10-13; see also Deut. 23:19, Lev. 25: 35-37, Neh. 5: 7-10, Jer. 15:10, Ezek. 22: 12, and Luke 6:35).

The Biblical case against usury does not stand alone. Plato and Aristotle condemned the practice, as did Aristophanes, Cato, Seneca, and Plutarch. So did Saints Anselm, Augustine, Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Jerome, and Ambrose, citing both Scripture and natural law. Numerous church councils and synods forbade usury: for instance, at the Third Council of Lateran (1179 C.E.), Pope Alexander III declared that both the Old and New Testaments condemn it and that violators should be excommunicated. Subsequent popes repeated these sanctions. In 1745, in the encyclical Vix Pervenit, Benedict XIV pronounced that “any gain which exceeds the amount the creditor gave is illicit and usurious.” Protestant opponents of usury included Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, and Urlich Zwingli. Nor is this condemnation unique to the Judeo-Christian tradition: the Qur'an condemns usury as well (2: 275, 3: 130). In short, the case against usury, like the case against homosexuality, appears to have strong biblical, philosophical, patristic, ecclesiastical, and theological grounds.

So what happened? Did the Church suddenly realize that it was missing out on something lucrative, and thus rescind its earlier prohibition? Not surprisingly, Church leaders offer a quite different explanation. According to them, economic conditions have changed substantially since Biblical times, such that usury no longer has the same consequences as it did when the prohibitions were issued. Therefore, those prohibitions no longer apply. As Father Richard McBrien, former chair of the University of Notre Dame theology department, writes:

"The teaching on usury changed because certain theologians in the sixteenth century concluded that economic conditions had changed, making the old condemnations obsolete, and that the experience of lay Christians had to be listened to." Thus, Navarrus (d. 1586), a professor at Salamanca in Spain and author of a Manual for Confessors, argued that an “infinite number of decent Christians” were engaged in exchange-banking, and he objected to any analysis which would “damn the whole world.”

McBrien's example of Navarrus is helpful here, for it shows how the Church's pastoral experience influenced its understanding of Scripture. Faced with otherwise “decent Christians” engaging in a traditionally forbidden practice, the Church re-examined the earlier prohibitions and found that they depended on conditions that no longer held.

Yet are we not today in a similar position regarding homosexuality? Even Christian traditionalists have begun to recognize that the stereotype of all gays as corrupt, hedonistic, sex-crazed heathens is unsupportable. On the contrary, many gay and lesbian relationships appear loving, nurturing, and fulfilling. As Richard B. Hays, a Methodist professor of New Testament at Duke University, points out, “There are numerous homosexual Christians whose lives show signs of the presence of God, whose work in ministry is genuine and effective. How is such experiential evidence to be assessed?”

"For centuries the Church quoted the Bible in condemning the lending of money at interest — any interest, not just "excessive" interest. Theologians concluded that economic circumstances had changed, and dogma should too. Some theologians seem uninterested in the evidence that gay and lesbian relationships can manifest themselves as a good. Reconciling deference to the authority of scripture with deference to the evidence of experience. Leviticus: "You may acquire slaves from the pagan nations that are around you." "Hays is appealing to a familiar Biblical principle here: “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt. 7:20). Surprisingly, however, he ultimately concludes that homosexual relationships are immoral. I suggest that Hays, and countless other theologians like him, have dropped the ball. They notice that many gay and lesbian relationships manifest themselves as good, but then opt for the prohibitions of Scripture over the evidence of their own experience. What they fail to notice is that the Church's history on usury provides a way out of this apparent dilemma.

Consider the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans, perhaps the most problematic text for gay and lesbian advocates. Paul writes of Gentiles who have given themselves up to “dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons due penalty for their error” (1:26-7).

It seems fairly clear that Paul viewed such acts as a sign and consequence of the Fall. (Some, like John Boswell and William Countryman, have argued that Paul's use of “unnatural” — para physin — carries no moral force. My argument does not require this conclusion, but if it is true, so much the better.) Granting (for the sake of argument) that Paul morally condemned such relationships, must contemporary Christians condemn homosexual relationships as well? Not necessarily. Suppose that in Paul's time homosexual relationships were typically exploitative, paganistic, or pederastic — as virtually all scholars would agree. If Paul condemned homosexuality because it had such features, but such features are no longer typical, then Paul's condemnation no longer applies. Substantial changes in cultural context have altered the meaning and consequences — and thus the moral value — of homosexual relationships. Put another way, using the Bible's condemnations of homosexuality against contemporary homosexuality is like using its condemnations of usury against contemporary banking.

This context-sensitive approach preserves not only the inerrancy of the Bible but also the authenticity of experience. For the religious believer, both are important: surely the Creator of all things reveals himself in lived experience as well as ancient texts. Indeed, to accept the text at face value while ignoring the evidence of experience would be to betray a rather impoverished view of revelation — one that has been rejected by centuries of official Church teaching.

But does this approach leave any room for mystery or for faith? If we need only consult experiential evidence to determine God's will, of what use is the Bible? I have not suggested, however, that we need only consult experiential evidence; I have merely suggested that experiential evidence, like Biblical evidence, is an important source of revelation. Nor have I denied that Biblical evidence may contradict experiential evidence and thus result in mystery. In this case, however, the contradiction is merely apparent. There is still room for mysteries of faith; this just happens not to be one of them.

The usury analogy also provides a better model for re-interpretation than do the more commonly cited issues of divorce and slavery. The Biblical case against divorce is at least as strong as that against homosexuality; indeed, Jesus forcefully condemns divorce (Matt. 5: 31-32) but never mentions homosexuality. This fact is startling when one considers how many advocates of “traditional Christian values” — Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole, and Phil Gramm, for instance — are divorced. Perhaps they consider divorce a one-time failure as opposed to an inveterate sin (though Jesus, who likened divorce to adultery, apparently disagrees). Or perhaps they accept an argument similar in strategy to the usury argument: divorce during Jesus's time had disastrous social consequences for women that it no longer has; thus, the Biblical condemnations are obsolete. The problem with the divorce analogy is many fundamentalists maintain that those who divorce and remarry are inveterate sinners, just as Jesus's words suggest.

By contrast, virtually no one wants to maintain the Bible's approval of slavery. Nevertheless, the Bible's position appears clear: Leviticus states, “You may acquire slaves from the pagan nations that are around you” (25:44). St. Paul writes, “Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ” (Eph. 6:5). Are such pronouncements (and many more like them) context-specific in a way that renders them inapplicable today?

Many believers think so. They argue that during Biblical times slavery was significantly different from its antebellum American form; specifically, Biblical masters were much kinder to their slaves. This argument concedes that cultural context is relevant to interpretation, and thus buttresses the case in favor of homosexuality. But it also concedes that under some certain circumstances human beings may own one another — a repugnant conclusion. Some believers try to avoid this conclusion by noting that according to St. Paul, “there is no longer slave or free” (Gal. 3:28). Yet this response also buttresses the pro-gay case, for the same passage says, “there is no longer male and female.” Erase that distinction, and homosexuality becomes a non-issue.

Perhaps the slavery example shows that the revisionist approach — or at least, the assumption that the Bible is inerrant — inevitably leads to absurdity. Perhaps it is time for gay rights advocates to bite the bullet and say, “Look, the Bible's just wrong sometimes.” For those unprepared to make that concession, the Church's stance on usury suggests a useful and coherent alternative.

--don
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2008, 7:20 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Combusean,

To this point, you've accused me of bigotry, hatefulness, judging others unfairly, chastising others, hypocrisy, being exclusionary, and other slams I've now lost track of...and yet, if you re-read my posts, you'll be hard-pressed to pull specific examples of any of the above.

I attempted to lighten the tone with some simple self-deprecation by essentially saying I over-achieved in marriage, and you seem to have mistaken my comment to read LITERALLY as I "fooled" my wife. I don't even know the point you were trying to make there, but no, in reality, I did not fool my wife at all. She knows me better than anyone else on earth.

You speak of me being judgemental, although I have not judged anyone here. Presenting Bible verses does not equate to hostility. On the flipside, you've made a major assumption as to my pre-marriage sexual history. Would you care to explain the basis for that assumption?

And yes, as I've referenced in previous posts, I do believe God views heterosexual acts outside of marriage the same way he views homosexual acts... a sin is a sin. We need to turn away from any and all such transgressions.

You've referenced alleged Biblical viewpoints of "openness" (I don't even know what that means) and "acceptance". Acceptance of sin? Certainly not! In fact, we're told to approach our brother in sin and rebuke him. Another verse that those not very familiar with scripture often take out of context is "Judge not, lest ye be judged." They use it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin. In the context of the verse Jesus is telling His disciples not to judge one another, something the Bible condemns (Romans 14:10; James 4:11). In John 7:24 He said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If someone steals, lies, commits adultery, murder, etc., we CAN AND SHOULD make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences.

I understand why many try to spin what the Bible says about homosexuality because it would certainly make life easier. My life in business might be much easier if God did not condemn lying also. But He does.

The verses are clear. Here's another:

-1 Timothy 1:8-10 (I want to make you actually open the Bible and read it...)


My positon is clear and simple really:

1) I believe the Bible to be authoritative, divine, and timeless.

2) A thorough study of God's word leaves no question as to the morality of homosexual behavior.

3) When presented with a ballot initiative surrounding gay marriage, I decide to vote in line with my beliefs.

If you re-read through the posts, you'll see that I've received a steady stream of crossfire for simply stating the above positions. Again, I HAVE NOT directed hate at anyone, despite your best efforts to paint me as some loony hate-monger looking to eliminate gays worldwide.

I know gay people. I'm friendly with gay people. I will socialize with gay people. I will help gay people. I will show love to gay people. And if they ask me, I'll tell them that I believe homosexual behavior to be wrong.

If you can't accept that, so be it.

Last edited by PHX NATIVE 929; Nov 10, 2008 at 12:40 AM.
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2008, 7:28 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Phx Native 929, I did not "choose" to be gay any more than I chose to be blond. I just am. Gays are born, not created. I like the color blue, I dislike Brussels sprouts, and I like men. In fact, I knew when I was five years old that I was different, although I did not understand my true nature until I was 12 years old.

I am fairly convinced that being gay is an immutable characteristic, probably genetically determined at birth. My parents (who were both straight and decent people) taught me right from wrong and raised me the best they could in trying circumstances.

God does create homosexual people as well, and whatever ignorant source you cited is obviously still stuck in the tenth century.

--don

Don,

I hear you, but let's look at this one other way...

Let's just take a black man. When a black man gets into bed at night, he has no choice what color his skin will be when he gets into that bed. It is what it is. Now, when a gay man gets into bed at night, does he not have the choice to get into bed solo, with a member of the opposite sex, or with a member of his own sex? Bear with me... I agree, that he might have a burning desire to choose one over the other, but ultimately it's still a choice to move forward. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to steal. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to lie. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to get drunk. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to view pornography. Maybe even from a very young age. But, at the end of the day, they are still capable of making a decision to stop or to go ahead.

Is what I've said here not true???
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  #91  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2008, 12:36 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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^ Could you "get into bed with a guy?" Sure you could, but why? You couldn't function. You'd be unhappy on a good day.

To expect me to get into bed with a woman is the same as me expecting you to get into a bed with a man. It just won't work, and it won't happen.

We could lay there and look at each other, I suppose, or even talk, but in terms of sex? Ain't gonna happen...doesn't get my motor running, so to speak.

Being gay isn't like some "compulsive urge" to commit a crime (and thanks for that thought...), being gay is like being straight. You just is, just like the black guy staying black.

--don
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2008, 1:47 AM
BA744PHX BA744PHX is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Don,

I hear you, but let's look at this one other way...

Let's just take a black man. When a black man gets into bed at night, he has no choice what color his skin will be when he gets into that bed. It is what it is. Now, when a gay man gets into bed at night, does he not have the choice to get into bed solo, with a member of the opposite sex, or with a member of his own sex? Bear with me... I agree, that he might have a burning desire to choose one over the other, but ultimately it's still a choice to move forward. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to steal. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to lie. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to get drunk. Some people struggle with the compulsive urge to view pornography. Maybe even from a very young age. But, at the end of the day, they are still capable of making a decision to stop or to go ahead.

Is what I've said here not true???
Well don't you have the urge to sleep with your wife in your bed? That is a compulsive urge right? It is your choice not to sleep with men like it's my choice not to sleep with a women. The only difference you are the one judging me on my life style. I was born gay like you were born "straight" so that does not make my choice a compulsive urge. We can always switch the position here and makes this about you and why don't you sleep with men???????

I mean come on.... a man has more to offer if you know what I mean Dorothy!!!

LOL LOL LOL
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  #93  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2008, 4:22 AM
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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2008, 4:50 AM
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^^^^^
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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2008, 7:05 AM
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I mean come on.... a man has more to offer if you know what I mean Dorothy!!!
I have to disagree with you there.
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  #96  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2008, 1:44 PM
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In trying to find more about the Criminal Court Tower I found this interesting response from Mr. Bible Thumper amidst some other noise to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

Spoken like a true idiot. Jerry Colangelo has meant more to this city than any other single individual that I can think of. He's a man of integrity and character. He's been one of the most charitable/community oriented businessmen this city has ever seen (most of it done behind the scenes). He saved the Suns and led the charge to bring baseball and hockey, helping to make Phoenix a true major league city. He actually GETS THINGS DONE.

It's sad and unfortunate when spineless, unthankful twats like yourself come on a message board and call a great man a "legendary pighead". Sorry the stadiums he helped get built ruined your precious downtown. We'd be rocking for sure without them! Are you still bitter about a tax that probably cost you the equivalent of buying a 6-pack of beer? Go back to one of your "causes" like preserving Patriot's Park. What a joke.
Not very Christian like huh? Go figure.
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2008, 8:09 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
In trying to find more about the Criminal Court Tower I found this interesting response from Mr. Bible Thumper amidst some other noise to me.



Not very Christian like huh? Go figure.
Oh, I see. So if you believe the Bible to be true and you call yourself a Christian, then you will automatically be perfect, without sin, never get angry and you will certainly never use profanity....

I regret my use of the word twat. Please forgive me. It was profane, indeed.

However, I do not regret standing up for Jerry Colangelo and I believe the fact that you decided to post this after things in this thread had cooled off completely as well as mocking me as a "Bible-Thumper" shows very little character on your part.

Some moderator.... Keep it classy, Combusean. And go clean up that apartment of yours! Run along now.
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2008, 9:17 PM
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My positions are clear and simple.
  1. I believe God is no different than any other deity that has existed throughout the history of man kind and is simply an attempt to appease the fear of death. As such the existence of any God is simply human fantasy.

  2. I believe in science and have an innate desire for things to make sense. Religion requires that you suspend your belief in science and believe that something that cannot be proven to be true, hence why its called ‘faith’ and not fact. The idea that there is a “higher power” in the cosmos keeping a running tab on my actions and judging there pros and cons to then pass on a final judgment onto me which will send me to damnation or eternal salvation borders on insanity.

  3. Fact the bible was written by men not God but by men and men certainly are very fallible. So taking it at face value requires that I pretend that so much of what I know to be true, science, biology, math etc. to be incorrect that I find it impossible to do so and causes me to view anyone who does with suspicion and pity.
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Old Posted Nov 18, 2008, 11:05 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Certainly entitled to that opinion as well and I actually appreciate your honesty, although I could debate you for hours as to the authenticity/historical nature of the Bible. Do you not believe in Alexander the Great? Are you aware that historical evidence for Jesus FAR surpasses historical evidence for Alexander the Great? I also certainly disagree with your viewpoint that having a faith in a God/Creator requires one to suspend any and all reasonable thinking. There is much that science has not answered and I would argue will never be able to answer because man's mind will never be on par with God's.

I could also argue that by refusing to acknowledge anything of a spiritual nature, one is attempting to convince oneself that there is zero chance of eternal consequences thus making their lives on earth guilt-free. Much easier that way.

I guess we'll all find out in the end.

Cheers!
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2008, 11:28 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Location: Phoenix
Posts: 505
"The idea that there is a “higher power” in the cosmos keeping a running tab on my actions and judging there pros and cons to then pass on a final judgment onto me which will send me to damnation or eternal salvation borders on insanity."

Where does this "running tabs" idea come from? Certainly not the Bible. It does not teach salvation to be a matter of credits outweighing debits.

Its Teachings:

-"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." -John 3:17

-"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." -Revelation 3:20

-"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -John 14:6

-"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." -John 3:16

-"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." -Ephesians 2:8,9


CANUC, my only piece of advice would be to not go off of what you've heard or seen from other "Christians" (myself included), but to pick up the book you've discredited and TRULY read it. Carefully. Repeatedly. Then start doing some research and see that there is no insanity in the faith. After all, your president-elect has expressed faith in Christ... Are you telling me your main man, Obama, deserves your pity also???
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