German culture in America

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There were fascist rallies on American soil before and during WW2. The NYT recently did an expose of Third Reich-funded network of German summer camps and youth programs. There was strong support for the Third Reich from German-Americans until the end.

I'd hesitate to say there was "strong" support - I don't know what percentage of German-Americans actively participated in pro-German activities after the Nazis seized power, but I'd be surprised if it was even 1-in-10.

Keep in mind that German-American culture had already been diluted by WWI and the "anti-German hysteria" of that decade:
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=134945

There was some rounding up and jailing of German-Americans during the 1930s and 40s that mirrored Japanese internment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...0Enemies%20Act.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Pretty much every nationality that immigrated in large numbers to the Midwest, I would think, had strong representation in Chicago.

yeah, for the most part i think that's true. a giant alpha metropolis like chicago got a little taste of just about all of the different euorpean flavors that flooded into the region back in the day.

legacy cities full of white ethnic descendants really only become "known" for a specific ethnicity when that group is kind of over and above national averages, like the irish in boston, or the italians in NYC, or the scandinavians in the twin cities, or the germans in the "german triangle" cities, or the poles in chicago.

lots of other cities got plenty of polish immigrants, but chicago became "known" as the great polish-american city only because their share of the population got relatively high here compared to most other cities, and in spite of the fact that german-americans and irish-americans are more numerous here in absolute terms.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Do you ever see German flags flying outside houses in the Midwest in the same way you see Irish / Italian / Portuguese flags all over southeastern New England? Or maybe the Bavarian flag or the flag of another German state / previous kingdom instead? I'm under the impression that many Germans immigrants, especially the ones who ended up around Cincinnati, were Catholics from Bavaria.

Originally Posted by mrnyc

i dk, but if they do it in cinci they certainly don’t do it anywhere else in ohio (well, outside of sugarcreek in holmes county, which is the amish tourist town). and ohio is a strong #3 for germans in the usa, so its not like there arent reasons. i would guess that unlike more recent immigrants who are quick to fly homeboy flags germans are highly assimilated and are typical mixed amerimutts culturally by now.

Nope. Germans get a little weird about nationalism. The only person I know who displayed a West German flag was my uncle, and that was hung up in his basement because he was stationed there in the late 1980s.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

No.

Whatever lingering German nationalism that was left in the US after WWI was thoroughly annihilated by Adolf Hitler.

I remember my own great-grandfather telling me how he and every other German-American he knew in chicago "buried" their Germanness during great wars and did everything they could to prove their american patriotism.

I suspect there's a lot of people in the United States with last names like "Smith" and "Brown" whose surnames at one point where "Schmidt" and "Braun"

My maternal grandfather, who was in school in the 1940s and 1950s, said he repeatedly got called a "kraut" by other kids at his school because of his very German last name.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I'd hesitate to say there was "strong" support - I don't know what percentage of German-Americans actively participated in pro-German activities after the Nazis seized power, but I'd be surprised if it was even 1-in-10.

Keep in mind that German-American culture had already been diluted by WWI and the "anti-German hysteria" of that decade:
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=134945

There was a wave of German immigrants that came to the US in the 1920s, that included some Nazis fleeing Weimar and spreading Nazi ideology in America. These post-WWI immigrants were the base of the German American Bund.

The Bund was visible in Manhattan's Yorkville area and 20,000 attended a Bund rally at Madison Square Garden.

[Crawford]

Yeah, if you're filling Madison Square Garden with Nazis, and building permanent campgrounds on Long Island for Nazi rallies, and naming new streets on Long Island for Nazis, I'd say you have pretty strong support. Who knows of the relative level of support, but it was considerable, and not only among Germans. Henry Ford and many isolationist Americans were often pro-Nazi or at least dismissive of concerns re. Nazism. Jews knew to avoid Yorkville and other German enclaves.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, if you're filling Madison Square Garden with Nazis, and building permanent campgrounds on Long Island for Nazi rallies, and naming new streets on Long Island for Nazis, I'd say you have pretty strong support. Who knows of the relative level of support, but it was considerable, and not only among Germans. Henry Ford and many isolationist Americans were often pro-Nazi or at least dismissive of concerns re. Nazism. Jews knew to avoid Yorkville and other German enclaves.

A considerable amount of U.S. brass and proto-intelligence officers/agents were at the least annoyed that we were going to war against Germany and not Russia in 1941.

[Centropolis]

Anyway, I can’t remember the last time I saw a German flag outside of a house but if you did see one it would (again) most likely be in Milwaukee or Cincinnati. In metro St. Louis Irish tri-color flags are the most common (non US) national flags.

Some French, Bosnian and Louisiana (colonial) flags.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

Anyway, I can’t remember the last time I saw a German flag outside of a house but if you did see one it would (again) most likely be in Milwaukee or Cincinnati.

i don't think you would there either.

the germans came too long ago and had to assimilate into generic americans for ... reasons.

i guess you would see german flags if there were germans coming over today or at least in more recent times, but that isn't happening.

look for central american flags these days.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, if you're filling Madison Square Garden with Nazis, and building permanent campgrounds on Long Island for Nazi rallies, and naming new streets on Long Island for Nazis, I'd say you have pretty strong support. Who knows of the relative level of support, but it was considerable, and not only among Germans. Henry Ford and many isolationist Americans were often pro-Nazi or at least dismissive of concerns re. Nazism. Jews knew to avoid Yorkville and other German enclaves.

It's strange, but the 1920's German wave, which was modest, went disproportionately to NYC.

And yeah, the isolationist sentiment was big, And it was highest in the most German region, the Midwest. A lot of that wasn't necessarily German either, but just part of the political culture of the region. Ford was of Ulster Irish Protestant ancestry and Charles A. Lindbergh of Swedish ancestry. Another midwesterner was radio broadcaster Father Coughlin, a Canadian-born Irish Catholic out of Detroit. He had a big base among the Irish of Boston in particular.

Not all isolationists were outright Nazi supporters, but yeah, "American isolationists" and "German immigrant Bundists" weren't separate and discrete groups. Their interests and organizing overlapped.

I'm actually reading Philip Roth's The Plot Against America right now.

[Xing]

Originally Posted by Docere

German ancestry is the most common reported ancestry in the US* but there's little display of it. They've long been seen as pretty much "middle American" (it doesn't hurt they're heavily concentrated in the Midwest too, where "average" or "middle America" is defined).

For instance, German is the most commonly reported ancestry in the Chicago area. But the Irish and Poles are more visible. German isn't included under the "white ethnic" banner, you don't hear about the "German vote" etc. They're basically generic white Americans (or maybe they've intermarried with Irish and Poles and if they display an ethnic identity/pride they'll emphasize the Irish or Polish side, not German).

The group of course was already split between Protestants and Catholics, and two world wars obviously made overt displays of German pride unpalatable.

Is there any visible display of German culture or identity in America today? There's nothing resembling a "German neighborhood" AFAIK (besides historic ones). Maybe a bit in cities like Milwaukee or Cincinnati or a few German settlements in the Midwest? Or cultural clubs maintained by older postwar immigrants?

* Though there's probably more English if you add the "American" responses and certainly if you include the Scots, Scots-Irish, Irish Protestants and Welsh there's more British than German heritage in the US.

Whatever strong displays of German culture and pride were largely removed during WWII. Since there wasn’t another large wave of German immigration afterwards, such displays were not revived on a large scale. This is my understanding of why you don’t see much German culture on display.

There are some communities in the US that have made strong attempts to bring these displays back. Those are the towns I suppose you’re looking for. I went to high school in a proud German town. Props to those who want to remember their family’s roots. It was called, Belleville IL. The evidence is in the housing stock:




he brick street houses were built in the German Klassissimus Style and date from 1850 to 1895.

[Docere]

Immigration from Germany by decade

1820-1829 5,753
1830-1839 124,726
1840-1849 385,434
1850-1859 976,072
1860-1869 723,734
1870-1879 751,769
1880-1889 1,445,181
1890-1899 579,072
1900-1909 328,722
1910-1919 174,227
1920-1929 386,634
1930-1939 119,107
1940-1949 119,506
1950-1959 576,905
1960-1969 209,616
1970-1979 77,142
1980-1989 85,752
1990-1999 92,207
2000-2009 122,373

https://teacher.scholastic.com/activ...gion_table.pdf

The last sizeable influx of German immigrants occurred in the 1950s (they were the largest nationality to immigrate in that decade). They seem to have dispersed across the country and melted pretty quickly for the most part.

[Docere]

Just checked and about 1/3 of the 1920s German immigrants went to NYC, as did the majority of German Jewish refugees in the 1930s and 1940s. There was a world of difference between Yorkville and Washington Heights. So by WWII, you had two groups of German immigrants at loggerheads.

In the 19th century, it was common for German Jews to live alongside other Germans. Obviously by the 1930s German Jews were opting for Jewish neighborhoods and avoiding German areas like Yorkville: Washington Heights in particular, or if more affluent/intellectual/cosmopolitan, the Upper West Side.

[eschaton]

I had a great-grandfather who was part of (nearly) the last generation of mass German migration to the U.S. He was a little too young to have participated in World War 1, but his father told him after the war he had to get the hell out of Europe (his village was German, but in an area now part of Romania - Banat) or he would likely be drafted and shot by his commanding officer for insubordination. He ended up in Philadelphia at age 17. Married his third cousin - my great grandmother, who was from the same village but immigrated with her family at age 3 to the U.S., hence she was completely assimilated.

I am 99% certain he had no Nazi sympathies, considering all the stories I heard about him from my mother's family was that he was a strident left winger and an ardent trade unionist. He apparently liked nothing more than arguing loudly about class politics. Although his family was pure-blooded German, they had acculturated to the area for centuries, so he cooked Hungarian food instead of German food, for example.

Never got to meet him. He died shortly before my older brother was born in the mid 1970s. Made the dumb decision to go out on an winter day to cash his Social Security check. Slipped on the ice and cracked his head.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I had a great-grandfather who was part of (nearly) the last generation of mass German migration to the U.S. He was a little too young to have participated in World War 1, but his father told him after the war he had to get the hell out of Europe (his village was German, but in an area now part of Romania - Banat) or he would likely be drafted and shot by his commanding officer for insubordination. He ended up in Philadelphia at age 17. Married his third cousin - my great grandmother, who was from the same village but immigrated with her family at age 3 to the U.S., hence she was completely assimilated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Swabians

I am 99% certain he had no Nazi sympathies, considering all the stories I heard about him from my mother's family was that he was a strident left winger and an ardent trade unionist. He apparently liked nothing more than arguing loudly about class politics. Although his family was pure-blooded German, they had acculturated to the area for centuries, so he cooked Hungarian food instead of German food, for example.

Sounds like a pretty awesome guy to me.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I had a great-grandfather who was part of (nearly) the last generation of mass German migration to the U.S. He was a little too young to have participated in World War 1, but his father told him after the war he had to get the hell out of Europe (his village was German, but in an area now part of Romania - Banat) or he would likely be drafted and shot by his commanding officer for insubordination. He ended up in Philadelphia at age 17. Married his third cousin - my great grandmother, who was from the same village but immigrated with her family at age 3 to the U.S., hence she was completely assimilated.

I am 99% certain he had no Nazi sympathies, considering all the stories I heard about him from my mother's family was that he was a strident left winger and an ardent trade unionist. He apparently liked nothing more than arguing loudly about class politics. Although his family was pure-blooded German, they had acculturated to the area for centuries, so he cooked Hungarian food instead of German food, for example.

Never got to meet him. He died shortly before my older brother was born in the mid 1970s. Made the dumb decision to go out on an winter day to cash his Social Security check. Slipped on the ice and cracked his head.

True, many or most of the German immigrants after WW2 were displaced persons, most commonly departing German settlements outside Germany where they were no longer welcome or opposed to the communist takeover. Countries like Romania, Hungary, Poland, Czech. etc.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Immigration from Germany by decade

1820-1829 5,753
1830-1839 124,726
1840-1849 385,434
1850-1859 976,072
1860-1869 723,734
1870-1879 751,769
1880-1889 1,445,181
1890-1899 579,072
1900-1909 328,722
1910-1919 174,227
1920-1929 386,634
1930-1939 119,107
1940-1949 119,506
1950-1959 576,905
1960-1969 209,616
1970-1979 77,142
1980-1989 85,752
1990-1999 92,207
2000-2009 122,373

very intersting data.

not surprisingingly, all of my german-chicagoan ancestors came to the city in the decades highlighted in red above.

those were also the 5 decades when chicago was one of the fastest growing cities on the planet, so no wonder so many of them ended up here.

i knew the bulk of german immigration to the US was during the 2nd half of the 19th century, but i've never seen the actual numbers before. thanks!

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'd say you have pretty strong support. Who knows of the relative level of support, but it was considerable, and not only among Germans. Henry Ford and many isolationist Americans were often pro-Nazi or at least dismissive of concerns re. Nazism.

This is a slippery slope. It's a big mistake to insinuate that these people had any idea what they were endorsing or how that endorsement would be seen by future critics. The Nazi regime didn't exact its unprecedented violence until the late 1930s, and Americans weren't aware of the Jewish holocaust until 1945.

And if we're to accept without eveidence that the descendants of Germans in the United States were Nazi Sympathizers before the Nazis went full-Nazi, well then that justifies the internment of Japanese-Americans.

All of that said, I've suspected for a long time that for all of the criticism directed at Fox News and talk radio, the pre-television era was worse. I'd bet that went on in all of those fraternal orders (certainly not limited to the German Bund) was MUCH MORE INSANE than anything we're familiar with today.

There were many large-scale urban riots in the 1800s that we chuckle about today but no doubt were motivated by speeches in those halls. You had a bunch of dudes drinking cheap beer in buildings that were often less then a mile from neighborhoods comprised of other ethnicities and religions. On many occasions the guys were whipped into a frenzy and they walked down the street as a gang and stomped their rivals.

There were cases where mobs broke into county court houses to kill suspects who weren't sentenced to death. When was the last time something like that happened?

[Steely Dan]

with the excpetions of IL & MI, the midwest (+ rustbelt cousin PA) has german-ancestry on lockdown, nationally

from wikipedia:

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

with the excpetions of IL & MI, the midwest (+ rustbelt cousin PA) has german-ancestry on lockdown, nationally

from wikipedia:

The lower IL/MI numbers are almost assuredly due to being the least white states overall, meaning there probably isn't appreciable difference in (reported) German ancestry among whites anywhere in the Midwest).

[Docere]

There are 6 contiguous states where 30%+ are of German ancestry, located in the Upper Midwest and Great Plains. The Scandinavian American heartland is contained in this area too.