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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 11:45 PM
Docere Docere is online now
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You can enter pharmacy school without completing a 4-year degree:

https://blog.neomed.edu/no-bachelors...-prerequisites

I think you can get into MD and DDS with 3 years completed as a minimum requirement, but it's super-rare.

There are also some 6-year BS/MD combined degrees in the US, kind of like the MBBS degree.

The main distinction between masters and professional doctorates seems to be the following:

1. Master's degrees generally take 1 or 2 years; professional doctor's degrees take 3 or 4 years

2. The professional doctor's degree is an entry-to-practice degrees for everyone entering the profession.

Some professional fields - like education, social work and engineering - follow the bachelor's/master's/doctorate hierarchy. There' not one common degree required by all.
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 11:53 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
You can enter pharmacy school without completing a 4-year degree:

https://blog.neomed.edu/no-bachelors...-prerequisites

I think you can get into MD and DDS with 3 years completed as a minimum requirement, but it's super-rare.

There are also some 6-year BS/MD combined degrees in the US, kind of like the MBBS degree.

The main distinction between masters and professional doctorates seems to be the following:

1. Master's degrees generally take 1 or 2 years; professional doctor's degrees take 3 or 4 years

2. The professional doctor's degree is an entry-to-practice degrees for everyone entering the profession.

Some professional fields - like education, social work and engineering - follow the bachelor's/master's/doctorate hierarchy. There' not one common degree required by all.
Just quickly scanning, but I think the bachelors is awarded concurrently with the pharmacy degree in those programs. At least in the US:

Quote:
Six pharmacy schools in the U.S. still offer a high school student to enroll directly into the School of Pharmacy for a six-year PharmD. degree. In most other Schools of Pharmacy, after completing the required prerequisites or obtaining a transferable bachelor's degree, pharmacy school is another four years. In general, the total collegiate timeline to become an entry-level pharmacist is six to eight years; three to four years undergraduate prerequisite is a bachelor's degree then 3 to 4 years (accelerated track) professional doctorate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor...#United_States
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Just quickly scanning, but I think the bachelors is awarded concurrently with the pharmacy degree in those programs. At least in the US:
Thank you

Anyone that thinks they can be a Doctor of Pharmacy in 6 years out of Hs is delusional


Six pharmacy schools in the U.S. still offer a high school student to enroll directly into the School of Pharmacy for a six-year PharmD. degree. In most other Schools of Pharmacy, after completing the required prerequisites or obtaining a transferable bachelor's degree, pharmacy school is another four years. In general, the total collegiate timeline to become an entry-level pharmacist is six to eight years; three to four years undergraduate prerequisite is a bachelor's degree then 3 to 4 years (accelerated track) professional doctorate.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 1:32 AM
Docere Docere is online now
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Right, but the requirement of a completed bachelor's to enter is not what separates master's from doctorates.
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 5:19 AM
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you technically can go to law school without a BS/BA though extremely rare. Just as it is rare for someone to get a masters without one as well. Hell, in CA, you can pass the bar without even going to law school.
Law schools accredited by the American Bar Association--the gold standard nationwide--require students to have previously earned a baccalaureate degree. There are schools that are not accredited by the ABA, but they are usually just diploma mills and their students have deplorable bar passage rates. As for taking the bar without going to law school, which is exceedingly rare and even more rarely successful, California has all kinds of burdensome alternative requirements.
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 6:23 AM
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[QUOTE=fleonzo;9859912]It was a general statement directed at the public at large but if you thought it was meant towards you....then that's on you. [/QUO

You replied directly to me and that's why I assumed that you were addressing me. So whatever.

Last edited by Dariusb; Feb 8, 2023 at 6:33 AM.
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 6:35 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Right, but the requirement of a completed bachelor's to enter is not what separates master's from doctorates.
I believe it was when the professional doctor degrees were created, hence why MDs and JDs were created as doctors. At the time that professional doctor degrees were created the criteria for a master's was a lot less formal than it is now. You could be awarded a master's without having previously studied for a bachelor's. Medical schools and law schools opted to make an undergraduate education a requirement and thus created their degrees as doctors, despite there not being a research component needed to fulfill the degree requirements.
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 7:44 PM
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The origin of physicians getting doctor's degrees goes back to 18th century Scotland when medical faculties decided to grant the Doctor of Medicine (M.D.)

That practice spread to North America.

In England, they still got the MB/MBBS. But physicians are called doctor as a matter of courtesy (but oddly surgeons are not).

Medical education was quite uneven until the early 20th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report

As for law, the LL.B. was a second-entry degree until the 1960s in much of the US. Interestingly Yale was among the last to switch to the J.D.

Canada kept granting the LL.B. until the 2000s, even though it followed the American pattern of law being a second-entry degree.
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
The origin of physicians getting doctor's degrees goes back to 18th century Scotland when medical faculties decided to grant the Doctor of Medicine (M.D.)

That practice spread to North America.

In England, they still got the MB/MBBS. But physicians are called doctor as a matter of courtesy (but oddly surgeons are not).

Medical education was quite uneven until the early 20th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report

As for law, the LL.B. was a second-entry degree until the 1960s in much of the US. Interestingly Yale was among the last to switch to the J.D.

Canada kept granting the LL.B. until the 2000s, even though it followed the American pattern of law being a second-entry degree.
I don't think the LL.B. was universally a second-entry degree. That's why the J.D. was adopted:

Quote:
After the 1930s, the LL.B. and the J.D. degrees co‑existed in some American law schools. Some law schools, especially in Illinois and the Midwest, awarded both (like Marquette University, beginning in 1926), conferring J.D. degrees only to those with a bachelor's degree (as opposed to two or three years of college before law school), and those who met a higher academic standard in undergraduate studies, finishing a thesis in their third year of law school.[60] Because the J.D. degree was no more advantageous for bar admissions or for employment, the vast majority of Marquette students preferred to seek the LL.B. degree.[60]

As more law students entered law schools with college degrees in the 1950s and 1960s, a number of law schools may have introduced the J.D. to encourage law students to complete their undergraduate degrees.[60] As late as 1961, there were still 15 ABA-accredited law schools in the United States which awarded both LL.B. and J.D. degrees. Thirteen of the 15 were located in the Midwest, which may indicate regional variations in the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 9:01 PM
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Yes, there was a period of many decades when both the J.D. and LL.B. granted by law schools as an entry-to-practice degree. Eventually it was standardized to the J.D.

Ultimately I see the professional school degree as kind of its own thing that doesn't really neatly fit the bachelor's/master's/doctorate hierarchy. And the Census Bureau and the Department of Education do as well (hence the specific classification).

Last edited by Docere; Feb 8, 2023 at 9:14 PM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 9:31 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Ultimately I see the professional school degree as kind of its own thing that doesn't really neatly fit the bachelor's/master's/doctorate hierarchy. And the Census Bureau and the Department of Education do as well (hence the specific classification).
It makes sense for the DoE to make the distinction, but I think it's kind of hair-splitting for demographic tracking purposes. In terms of socioeconomics, professional degree holders are likely going to be in the same economic class as research degree holders. If anything, professional degree holders are likely to be much more affluent than research degree holders.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 9:39 PM
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Right in terms of socioeconomics, most of both belong to the professional class yes.

But yeah, there's a reason why there's all these if "nobody asks for an art history Ph.D. when someone's having a heart attack" jokes abound in a culture that values money more than intellectualism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BCXJ3yC65o
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 10:08 PM
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Most stats separate college vs. noncollege, and sometimes advanced degrees. Only 14% of Americans have advanced degrees of any sort. Those with doctorates or professional school degrees are only around 2% of the population each (way too small to be separated out meaningfully in surveys), about 10% have masters' degrees. A sizeable majority in all three belong better-off strata and part of a relative elite, even if physicians earn a lot more than librarians.
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  #54  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Right in terms of socioeconomics, most of both belong to the professional class yes.

But yeah, there's a reason why there's all these if "nobody asks for an art history Ph.D. when someone's having a heart attack" jokes abound in a culture that values money more than intellectualism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BCXJ3yC65o
Speak for yourself but if I'm having shooting pain up my left arm, I want someone to be there and tell be which battle was the major turning point of the Peloponnesian War.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 4:32 PM
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There used to be quite a difference in voting between bachelor's-only college grads and those with postgraduate degrees, with the latter being much more Democratic (though they didn't really start separating out this data until the 1980s or 1990s I think when there were enough to separate out postgrads for national surveys). Interestingly there was little difference in 2020 (56-42 Dvs. 58-40 D).

My guess is the difference has narrowed because having a postgrad degree isn't as niche as it used to be, and that academicians make up a smaller proportion of postgrads than they did in the past.

The number of postgrads has doubled since 1990 (from 7% to 14%).
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 6:20 PM
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I view JDs on the same level as MBAs.
Those are professional "masters-level" accreditations. Roughly equivalent difficulty and time spent getting them.
MDs are equivalent to PhDs.

Then there is a proliferation of what I call "mickey mouse" degrees, masters and PhD level, especially in education and in some social sciences. My friend is a teacher and she has 3 masters degrees... they are all just joke degrees to fulfill school department requirements for either specific teaching positions or payscale raise. In most other fields they are just called "certificates".
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 6:41 PM
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I don't think an MBA should be bucketed with a JD. You can complete MBA requirements concurrently with completing a bachelor's (also can be done while completing a JD at some schools). But you cannot complete JD requirements concurrently with an undergrad degree. You also cannot backdoor your way into a JD program through an MBA program. JD programs are more similar to MD programs in that they require prerequisites to be fulfilled before starting the program at all.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 6:56 PM
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The masters degree has the most variation. It ranges from glorified certificates to degrees only granted after the professional degree (for example the LL.M. or MS degrees in dental specialties).

On the rise of the master's degree:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=30c220fc2ff3
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:03 PM
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So, uhh, how about those most educated states...
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't think an MBA should be bucketed with a JD. You can complete MBA requirements concurrently with completing a bachelor's (also can be done while completing a JD at some schools). But you cannot complete JD requirements concurrently with an undergrad degree. You also cannot backdoor your way into a JD program through an MBA program. JD programs are more similar to MD programs in that they require prerequisites to be fulfilled before starting the program at all.
They are fairly comparable professionally even if the path to entry differs somewhat. MBA programs are (were) a huge cash cow which means universities competing with one another loosening some requirements. Law schools are not as prolific and more selective on average.
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