HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2022, 8:05 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
I've always thought that having a mostly above-ground train system made no sense in one of the coldest big cities in America. If I lived in Chicago, there's no way I'd choose to wait for a train outside on a blustery elevated platform on a cold winter day. Should have been underground.
its not that bad. the cold is one thing, but you can easily shield yourself from the blustery up there or even wait in the station entrance area until the train comes.

also out here, outlying commuter rail stations at least have small heated waiting areas. i know in minneapolis they have heated areas for people waiting on busses too. bus waits are by far the worst, those should be everywhere where it gets cold.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 12:11 AM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
The region with the most progress underway right now is Toronto. This is not me being a homer - for decades we severely underbuilt what we needed given our growth rate, and now we're playing 40 years of catch-up.

I'm not counting sunbelt cities with less than 5% transit mode share in my "least progress" category, since rail lines in those cities don't move the needle at all in terms of regional transportation dynamics.

So, I'd say that the worst performer right now is either Philly or Chicago. Actually, Philly doesn't have to do any construction, they just need a shift in operations mentality. I can't believe the embarrassment of riches that Philly just sleeps on. In terms of fixed capital, they basically have what a German city has: they have fully-electrified regional rail, a quad-track tunnel running under downtown enabling the regional rail system to form a cross at 30th St. station, and a parallel subway and streetcar subway system running in a pair of tunnels. Cities like London and NY are spending tens of billions of dollars to get what Philly already has.
I can kind of agree with the Philly point in terms of unrealized potential. SEPTA has recently been upgrading old infrastructure though and have plans to turn the trolleys into something more like Boston's green line or the streetcars in Toronto. during the pandemic there was a lot of talk about finally using regional rail like an s-bahn. They're installing raised platforms at many stations that didn't have them, which I assume is in support of this.

Last edited by Skintreesnail; Jan 22, 2022 at 12:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 5:26 AM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is online now
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
I've always thought that having a mostly above-ground train system made no sense in one of the coldest big cities in America. If I lived in Chicago, there's no way I'd choose to wait for a train outside on a blustery elevated platform on a cold winter day. Should have been underground.
Stations have heaters, it's not a big deal.
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 8:18 PM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Stations have heaters, it's not a big deal.
Not to mention that many of them have in closed lobbies that you can wait in.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 9:03 PM
ue ue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
I'd say Toronto is the clear winner here. By July of this year there will be 86.5km (~54 miles) of LRT and subway lines under construction in the city - equivalent to over doubling the entire network length of the city's rapid transit network today.

Plus, the GO expansion program is expected to begin major construction around then as well, which will electrify 263km (163 miles) of commuter rail track and provide 15-minute frequency rail services across 210km (130 miles) of those tracks with much more all day, 30 minute to hourly frequency services operating across Southern Ontario.

Plus there are more lines in the pipeline, like an LRT for Hamilton, additional Subway and LRT extensions in Toronto, and an ever increasing scope of GO expansion which keeps increasing frequencies, extending lines, and adding new stations.


All of this will be built by 2030 basically. It's an insane transformation.

In terms of the US, I think Seattle has the most transformative network under construction and planned. The City will go from having very little rapid transit to having an effective city-wide network in only a few decades.

Ottawa also has an honorable mention, which is going from basically 0km of rapid transit to a 62km (38.5 mile) rapid transit system over about a decade, and again, with more lines planned. And while it does use LRT vehicles, it's fully grade separated and functions as a metro line, which makes it all the more impressive, especially since it's serving a city of only about 1.2 million.

I did the math a little while ago and I believe Ontario is set to have more transit under construction this year than the entire US combined, to put it to scale.
Toronto is probably the winner, you're right. The urban rapid transit expansion underway is pretty impressive considering the relatively minor expansions over the past few decades. Hopefully they don't take as long to come online as Eglinton is. And then of course, as you mention, there's the GO upgrades and expansions, which aren't totally about Toronto, but for GO all roads lead to Toronto.

I'd say the second place would be Montreal, just due to the REM. It's not quite as impressive because it mostly involves repurposing existing ROWs, but it will result in 67km of 'light metro' service around Greater Montreal. I think it'll be a game-changer as the suburbs have mostly just had slow commuter rail and buses into the city.

Ottawa is probably third. Another laggard until very recently, it's really aggressively expanding the O-Train and not skipping a beat, despite its existing line being rife with issues. Far out suburbs like Orleans are going to soon have very easy access to Downtown Ottawa, uOttawa, and VIA services.

After that I'd say Edmonton. It's currently undergoing the largest single increases in track to the LRT system since it first came to be in the late '70s. There's currently 27km under construction (in two phases - the first is just wrapping up and the other has recently begun construction), with extensions to the existing lines either under construction or soon to be.

Calgary and Vancouver, which were probably the most aggressive rapid transit expansionists in recent decades seem to be taking a bit of a break. But Calgary has the Green Line and Vancouver has the Broadway extension to look forward to. Calgary also just recently implemented a BRT system.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 10:03 PM
kittyhawk28 kittyhawk28 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Share what you think are the North American cities currently making the most transit progress and which cities are the worst laggards.
Southern California, probably has by far the most rapid rail transit expansion programme in the country over the next 2 decades. LA Metro is doubling the size of its rail network in the next 10 years to 200 miles, and will likely triple the current network at full planned buildout by the 2040s-2050s (pending likely new rail transit tax measures) to up to 300 miles of light rail/subway across LA County. San Diego, as mentioned earlier, has a $160 billion vision to expand and reshape rail transit across the county. The Link Union Station Project will almost double Metrolink/Amtrak frequency and capacity by 2028, and Metrolink's $10 billion SCORE program will ensure at least 30 minute bi-directional frequencies on all Metrolink lines by 2028 through increased double tracking. Not to mention countless BRT projects planned.

LA Metro's Planned 2028 Rail Network under Twenty-eight by '28 (likely by 2030s):


LA Metro's Full Planned Buildout (Funded + Unfunded Projects):
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 2:34 AM
tech12's Avatar
tech12 tech12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland
Posts: 3,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrvineNative View Post
Even pre-COVID, SF transit was a disaster. BART violent crime per capita was quadruple that of the DC Metro. BART headways were abysmal, 15 minute workday rush hour frequencies if your station was served only by one line. (Even DC Metro stations served by only one line have 6-8 minute rush hour frequencies). And Muni Metro was the slowest urban rail transit system in the nation, averaging less than 10 mph.

And expansions like the Silicon Valley BART were moving at a snails pace with cost overruns second to only NYC. A second Transbay tube has been discussed for ages but so far no progress. Ditto with Caltrain to Downtown. Meanwhile, SF spent over 2 billion on a lavish Transbay Transit Center for a high speed rail and Caltrain extension that may never come.
I'm not sure how a transit system as extensive and widely used as Muni or BART could be called a disaster. As for Muni's average speed, train lines aren't averaging 10 mph (not in the subway or surface areas that aren't shared with traffic), and neither are certain bus lines, especially at non-rush hour times. But it is true that buses (which carry most Muni passengers, by far) and trains on some of the above ground sections, are often slowed down by traffic and the constant intersections and bus stops. Muni has been dealing with that by adding bus-only lanes to a bunch of streets, and eliminating some bus stops, and is also working out some new train route configurations to make the subway flow more efficiently, as there were too many train lines converging on the market street subway.

BART and Muni have both been expanding over the past several years, with the Central Subway, Van Ness BRT, and BART extensions to SJ, Antioch, and the Oakland airport. Muni also plans to extend the market street subway to SFSU/Park Merced, in the southwest corner of the city (replacing existing surface rail), and to possibly extend the central subway to North beach and Fisherman's wharf, as well as build a BRT line down Geary Blvd. A new transbay tube is also officially in the works, with BART and Capitol Corridor planning to have it built by 2040. That's a long time from now, but at least the idea is more than just talk these days. The rumors are that it might include a new subway through western SF (Geary blvd and 19th ave), but we'll see. Both systems are also currently updating and expanding their train fleets.

In addition to that and Caltrain electrification, there was the construction of SMART in the north bay, and its planned expansions, as well as expansions of the ferry system.

Pretty much all of this stuff has had delays and cost overruns, but that kind of thing isn't unique to the Bay Area.

Yeah, things could be better (I'm jealous of LA's rail plans!), but I don't think SF/the Bay Area has been doing terrible by American standards.

Last edited by tech12; Jan 23, 2022 at 3:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 2:52 PM
SAN Man SAN Man is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 723
When the extension of the Purple Line opens, the Red Line is no longer going to serve Downtown LA? It's seems weird that you would have to make a transfer to get from Hollywood to Downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 5:02 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAN Man View Post
When the extension of the Purple Line opens, the Red Line is no longer going to serve Downtown LA? It's seems weird that you would have to make a transfer to get from Hollywood to Downtown.
The maps don't show interlined sections properly.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 9:05 PM
kittyhawk28 kittyhawk28 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAN Man View Post
When the extension of the Purple Line opens, the Red Line is no longer going to serve Downtown LA? It's seems weird that you would have to make a transfer to get from Hollywood to Downtown.
It does, Google Earth Pro unfortunately obscures the interlining
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 9:58 PM
SAN Man SAN Man is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 723
^Thanks for the clarification guys.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 11:09 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
Unicorn Wizard!
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,056
One problem with American transit is it only serves centralized places of employment. It doesn't get people to sunday afternoon dentist appointments or that fun restaurant on the other side of town, and you can't take it to enjoy a day at the beach or go hiking. LA interestingly could be an exception to this rule, only because of it's awesome geographic location making leisure and "staycation" activities right there in the city, and almost-dense-yet-decentralized layout of the place where there's all sorts of stuff along major roads.

But I wouldn't want to be carless in Dallas-Fort Worth even if there was a multi-line metro system here, because you just couldn't go and do anything. I feel like a lot of Americans probably feel this way.

For these reasons I think buses should get more attention since they can go more places. I like Colorado's Bustang system. Also there should be subsidized, loss-leader low ridership routes to high value destinations if it means more people use transit overall. A bus to a regional park. A bus to the city's largest mall. A bus to the medical center. And so forth.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 11:37 PM
IrvineNative IrvineNative is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittyhawk28 View Post
Southern California, probably has by far the most rapid rail transit expansion programme in the country over the next 2 decades. LA Metro is doubling the size of its rail network in the next 10 years to 200 miles, and will likely triple the current network at full planned buildout by the 2040s-2050s (pending likely new rail transit tax measures) to up to 300 miles of light rail/subway across LA County. San Diego, as mentioned earlier, has a $160 billion vision to expand and reshape rail transit across the county. The Link Union Station Project will almost double Metrolink/Amtrak frequency and capacity by 2028, and Metrolink's $10 billion SCORE program will ensure at least 30 minute bi-directional frequencies on all Metrolink lines by 2028 through increased double tracking. Not to mention countless BRT projects planned.
I'm just concerned that LA's light rail is largely slow and street running unlike Seattle's Link, whose future expansions will be grade separated and be as subway like as possible.

The prioritization of rail projects in LA is also weird. East San Fernando Valley gets a street running LRT while the Vermont Corridor has to settle for BRT when it should be getting a grade separated LRT at least. LA is almost too pro-transit for its own good. Every suburb screams for light rail. In San Diego, the suburbs are all NIMBY which forces SANDAG to concentrate building rail in the urban core.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2022, 2:55 AM
saybanana saybanana is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Southern California
Posts: 197
What is missing from the metro los angeles map is the commuter rail map which would fill in the missing sections to the northwest, north east, east and south east. Some infill station, frequent trains, some grade separation and laus run thru tracks would help connect more of the county and adjacent counties that aren't building anything much except Santa Ana oc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2022, 5:18 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
One problem with American transit is it only serves centralized places of employment. It doesn't get people to sunday afternoon dentist appointments or that fun restaurant on the other side of town, and you can't take it to enjoy a day at the beach or go hiking. LA interestingly could be an exception to this rule, only because of it's awesome geographic location making leisure and "staycation" activities right there in the city, and almost-dense-yet-decentralized layout of the place where there's all sorts of stuff along major roads.
LA Metro's buses and trains are up to about 80% of pre-COVID ridership (best rebound among big agencies in the country), while NYC is hovering around 58% and SF is languishing around 45%, and it seems clear to me that the reason for those disparities is in line with your observation here.

Metro and the larger local agencies (Big Blue, Long Beach, etc.) are much more focused on local service than with getting commuters into and out of downtown LA. While downtown is physically the hub of the public transit network here and thus is very well served by bus and train, it is merely one of the larger of several employment nodes located around the city and region. And many other jobs aren't in a node at all, they're just scattered along major boulevards. Because of all that, LA's public transit system really was built in a way that gets people to the dentist and that restaurant across town, as the current ridership stats indicate.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2022, 8:00 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 9,682
I think the 2 big ones are L.A. and Toronto although Toronto will have vastly higher ridership.

Montreal is no slouch. Montreal's RER system will be completed in a couple year and will be 65km of completely grade separated automated rapid transit using LRT trains. It will include a large downtown tunnel connecting to the Metro network. Another new REM system is proposed for the city's eastside.

Seattle, Vancouver, Calgary, Dallas, Edmonton, Ottawa, Austin, SF, NYC, and Miami also get honourable mention.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2022, 8:09 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 9,682
All Canadian cities seem to be investing heavily into their transit systems and much of this is due to Trudeau sending tens of billions their way strictly for urban transit. He has even set aside billions for transit agencies to get rid of all their diesel buses and transform over to zero emissions ones.

For the US, the situation is a little less rosy as the big infrastructure fund was shrunk down so much that most of the transportation funding will go to highways and Amtrac most of which will be spent in NY on a tunnel.

Of course there are many US cities that have done little to improve their systems over the years like Chicago, Boston, and Philly and it shows with some of their rotting stations and rolling stock that looks like it should be moved to the Smithsonian.

There are many US cities with just rudimentary transit systems but the biggest failure, by far, is Detroit. It doesn't have any form of rapid transit and has none under construction or even proposed. Even BRT seems just too much for this city of 4 million. For a city the size and importance of Detroit, to not have any form of rapid transit {little alone even a passable regular bus service} is scandalous but probably even more unbelievable is that the vast majority of Detroiters don't seem to care.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2022, 3:54 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 26,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Of course there are many US cities that have done little to improve their systems over the years like Chicago, Boston, and Philly and it shows with some of their rotting stations and rolling stock that looks like it should be moved to the Smithsonian.
i can't speak for boston or philly, but i feel your assessment is overly harsh on chicago.

while it's true that the CTA hasn't engaged in the construction of any brand new el lines since the early '90s (orange line out to midway), they have been making continuous improvements to many of the archaic century-old el lines, and the the rolling stock is actually fairly up to date for a giant legacy american heavy rail rapid transit system.

over the past 30 years, the green, brown, pink, southside red, and northside blue lines lines have all gone through extensive and very expensive renovation projects to keep them running well into the 21st century. and the red/purple northside quad-track mainline is currently in a multi-billion dollar rebuild as well. many of the stations in the loop have also been extensively renovated. and new infill stations have been opened up over the years as formerly vacated sections of the near south and near west sides have been gentrifying - like morgan/lake, cermak-mccormick place, and the soon to be under construction damen stops on the green line. all told, these renovation/rehabilitation projects have cost the agency untold billions of dollars, which has made finding money for actual new-build expansions quite difficult to find. all part of the problem of having a rapid transit system that first opened back in the 19th century.

as for the rolling stock on the el, the CTA is currently in the process of acquiring 846 new 7000-series el cars to the tune of $1.3 billion. as they continue to come into service over this decade, they will eventually replace the entire 2600-series and 3200-series fleets that date from the 80s/early 90s. this will leave the 714 cars of 5000-series as the only older cars in the fleet, and they were all built between 2009 - 2015. so the el is actually well on its way to having a very up to date fleet.



So saying that the CTA "has done little to improve its system", currently and in the recent past, is a bit unfair in my eyes. Could it have been doing a whole lot more? Well of course, but given our nation's miserly attitude towards transit investment, the CTA has been lucky enough to get the billions of dollars it has gotten to rebuild its crumbling rail infrastructure and replace its outdated rolling stock. Those are still real transit wins with tangible benefits for the city of chicago, even if they aren't nearly as sexy as "OMG!!! city X is gonna build a hundred new miles of rail transit!"
__________________
"every time a strip mall dies, an angel gets its wings"

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 26, 2022 at 8:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2022, 10:43 PM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,170
I think Chicago's biggest failure in terms of growth and expansion, and it's biggest gap compared to Toronto, is in the bus network, not just of CTA but also of Pace. Compare the growth of Pace to that of Mississauga Transit and Brampton Transit since the 90s. In 1996, Brampton Transit was around 1/5 the size of Pace, carrying less than 19k riders per weekday, but by itself it is now larger than the entire Pace system, carrying 144k riders per weekday in 2016. Mississauga Transit carried 100k riders per weekday in 1996, and by 2019 the system doubled in size, carrying 201k riders per weekday. That's growth of over 220k daily boardings for just these two systems. In comparison, Pace went from 125k to 135k, only 10k growth for a much larger service area.

You think we need to focus less on "sexy" transit improvements? Not focus so much on "new miles of rail transit"? Maybe look at Pace instead. Old systems like CTA and Metra are not up-and-coming systems like TTC, GO, Mississauga, Brampton because they have such a huge rail system that they have successfully maintained and kept running, so of course they must be given credit for that, but that doesn't explain the failure of Pace Suburban Bus. 8% growth since 1996 is just pathetic. Pace serves a population of 4-5 million but ridership is lower than King County, Las Vegas, Pittsburgh, Orange County, Honolulu. Even with a "miserly attitude" towards transit, Chicagoland can do a lot better, as all of these other places show.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2022, 10:53 PM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i can't speak for boston or philly, but i feel your assessment is overly harsh on chicago.

while it's true that the CTA hasn't engaged in the construction of any brand new el lines since the early '90s (orange line out to midway), they have been making continuous improvements to many of the archaic century-old el lines, and the the rolling stock is actually fairly up to date for a giant legacy american heavy rail rapid transit system.

over the past 30 years, the green, brown, pink, southside red, and northside blue lines lines have all gone through extensive and very expensive renovation projects to keep them running well into the 21st century. and the red/purple northside quad-track mainline is currently in a multi-billion dollar rebuild as well. many of the stations in the loop have also been extensively renovated. and new infill stations have been opened up over the years as formerly vacated sections of the near south and near west sides have been gentrifying - like morgan/lake, cermak-mccormick place, and the soon to be under construction damen stops on the green line. all told, these renovation/rehabilitation projects have cost the agency untold billions of dollars, which has made finding money for actual new-build expansions quite difficult to find. all part of the problem of having a rapid transit system that first opened back in the 19th century.

as for the rolling stock on the el, the CTA is currently in the process of acquiring 846 new 7000-series el cars to the tune of $1.3 billion. as they continue to come into service over this decade, they will eventually replace the entire 2600-series and 3200-series fleets that date from the 80s/early 90s. this will leave the 714 cars of 5000-series as the only older cars in the fleet, and they were all built between 2009 - 2015. so the el is actually well on its way to having a very up to date fleet.



So saying that the CTA "has done little to improve its system", currently and in the recent past, is a bit unfair in my eyes. Could it have been doing a whole lot more? Well of course, but given our nation's miserly attitude towards transit investment, the CTA has been lucky enough to get the billions of dollars it has gotten to rebuild its crumbling rail infrastructure and replace its outdated rolling stock. Those are still real transit wins with tangible benefits for the city of chicago, even if they aren't nearly as sexy as "OMG!!! city X is gonna build a hundred new miles of rail transit!"
100% Agreed.

In addition, the one actual rail expansion being talked about is a giant waste of money that is going to serve almost nobody. So hopefully that doesn't ever see the light of day.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:14 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.