When does a metro become midsized or large?

[Wigs]

Posted by LeftCoaster
Greater Montreal is nowhere near twice the size of Metro Vancouver though.

Greater Montreal: 4,364,189
Metro Vancouver: 2,737,698

So about 60% larger, but it's important to note that Greater Montreal has been growing a lot simply by including smaller far flung areas in it's metro and the area now covers an almost comically large 4,600 sq km, to Vancouver's 2,800.

Comparing a similar size would contain all of the lower mainland, at about 3.1 million, which puts Montreal only about 40% larger than Vancouver on a more apples to apples measurement.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710013501

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

I don't know what is comical about the 4,600km². It's very small by North American standard. It was about 4,200km² before Saint-Jean and Saint-Lin were merged into the CMA. Saint-Jean is only 28km from downtown Montréal. You can't compare the 2 cities using similar size simply because the Montréal ''far flung'' cities meet the commuting flow threshold, and not those in Vancouver. A number of satellite cities like Valleyfield, Lachute and Joliette could be merged into the CMA in the next censuses as working from home is now a normality. That would add another 130,000 people in the CMA. Montréal is the canadian urban sprawl capital so it just follows the trend of the big north american cities.

If you want to do an apples to apples comparison to Montreal maybe Vancouver should wait until 1.42 Million passengers are riding the SkyTrain a day. It's just ~900,000 people shy currently

By that point, however, Métro de Montréal would probably have over 2 Million passengers/day.

[Razor]

I don't know about anyone else here, but if you plopped me into Atlanta, Houston Toronto or Montreal they would all just feel like big cities to me..There's no way I would be able to tell that Houston is 10% larger than Toronto (throwing out a number), or vice versa..Boston wouldn't feel larger than Montreal because it has a few hundred thousand extra people in it's metro. etc, etc.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Razor

I don't know about anyone else here, but i you plopped into Atlanta, Houston Toronto or Montreal they would just feel like big cities to me..There's no way I would be able to tell that Houston is 10% larger than Toronto (throwing out a number), or vice versa..Boston wouldn't feel larger than Montreal because it has a few hundred thousand extra people in it's metro. etc, etc.

May actually get an opposite impression of the cities. Houston may be filled with large buildings and massive freeways, but it is without the daily teeming sidewalks of pedestrians one would encounter in Toronto, Boston, and Montreal. I can't speak for Atlanta streets based on my experience, but I expect it is more like a Houston than a Toronto (certainly not like Boston or Montreal).

I recall our foreign visitors in Houston inquiring 'where are all the people?"

[llamaorama]

I think at the low end it’s subjective and decided by the city’s stature and vibrancy

Wellington, Reykjavik, and Killeen, Texas are roughly in the same population class. But then two of these are noteworthy cities and one of them is just a very large small town. A “big” metro is going to need economic and cultural things or be a seat of government that make it a destination.

I suppose the subjectivity exists on the high end too. Kinshasa is technically bigger than Paris but is essentially a massive slum with a small zone of rich people and a skyline about the size of a smaller US city. Of course with respect to large cities in presently poor nations future development could allow them to grow up one day into famed metropolises. Whereas smaller cities in slow growing developed countries will remain the same or shrink.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by benp

May actually get an opposite impression of the cities. Houston may be filled with large buildings and massive freeways, but it is without the daily teeming sidewalks of pedestrians one would encounter in Toronto, Boston, and Montreal. I can't speak for Atlanta streets based on my experience, but I expect it is more like a Houston than a Toronto (certainly not like Boston or Montreal).

I recall our foreign visitors in Houston inquiring 'where are all the people?"

By that metric I think you'd be hard pressed to consider any U.S. city large other than NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, D.C., and San Francisco.

[benp]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

By that metric I think you'd be hard pressed to consider any U.S. city large other than NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, D.C., and San Francisco.

Maybe add Seattle...

I was responding specifically to the "plopped down" part - a city with heavy foot traffic "feels" like a bigger city than one without.

But, my point was that if plopped down in downtown Houston, it would seem to be much smaller than a city with greater foot traffic.

However, if driving in on a congested 26-lane wide I-10, 25 miles from downtown, then the metro size becomes apparent.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

And both measures include ~8 billion square miles of corn fields.

Not that it moves the needle a ton, because farmland doesn't have a lot of people to begin with, but going by the far more meaningful UA definition, Chicagoland was at 8.6M in 2010.

We still don't have 2020 UA figures yet, but perhaps Chicagoland inched up to 8.7 - 8.8M on that score?

I think we can grandfather Chicago into the Xlarge/world alpha city rank even though metro is a bit under 10 mil. Skyline alone & corporate headquarters gets them in. Chicago will always be important. Capital of the heartland. Global warming and access to water will cement importance.

Alphas in N.Am: NYC, L.A., Chicago, S.F. /bay area, Toronto, Mexico City.

Near alphas: Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Boston, Wash. D.C., Philly, D-FW, Seattle, M-SP, Montreal. Houston & Atlanta & DFW may be close to alpha status, prob. Miami too. Boston &DC also close.

Important betas: San Diego, Detroit, St.Louis, KC, Cincy, Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Raleigh-Durham- Chapel Hill, Vancouver, Las Vegas, Portland, Tampa-St.Pete, Baltimore, Columbus, Indianapolis, SanAntonio/Austin area (almost near alpha), Calgary, Monterrey & Guadalajara & Puebla MX. Maybe SLC & Winnipeg?

I may have forgotten a city or 2.

[ue]

Originally Posted by benp

May actually get an opposite impression of the cities. Houston may be filled with large buildings and massive freeways, but it is without the daily teeming sidewalks of pedestrians one would encounter in Toronto, Boston, and Montreal. I can't speak for Atlanta streets based on my experience, but I expect it is more like a Houston than a Toronto (certainly not like Boston or Montreal).

I recall our foreign visitors in Houston inquiring 'where are all the people?"

They're stuck idling on the freeway trying to get to the Galleria.

[ue]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

I think we can grandfather Chicago into the Xlarge/world alpha city rank even though metro is a bit under 10 mil. Skyline alone & corporate headquarters gets them in. Chicago will always be important. Capital of the heartland. Global warming and access to water will cement importance.

Alphas in N.Am: NYC, L.A., Chicago, S.F. /bay area, Toronto, Mexico City.

Near alphas: Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Boston, Wash. D.C., Philly, D-FW, Seattle, M-SP, Montreal. Houston & Atlanta & DFW may be close to alpha status, prob. Miami too. Boston &DC also close.

Important betas: San Diego, Detroit, St.Louis, KC, Cincy, Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Raleigh-Durham- Chapel Hill, Vancouver, Las Vegas, Portland, Tampa-St.Pete, Baltimore, SanAntonio/Austin area (almost near alpha), Calgary, Monterrey & Guadalajara & Puebla MX. Maybe SLC & Winnipeg?

I may have forgotten a city or 2.

This section is all over the place. Vancouver and Winnipeg in the same tier? Calgary, but not similarly-sized Ottawa and Edmonton? Guadalajara (with over 5m) stuck in the same grouping as Raleigh-Durham?

[north 42]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

I think we can grandfather Chicago into the Xlarge/world alpha city rank even though metro is a bit under 10 mil. Skyline alone & corporate headquarters gets them in. Chicago will always be important. Capital of the heartland. Global warming and access to water will cement importance.

Alphas in N.Am: NYC, L.A., Chicago, S.F. /bay area, Toronto, Mexico City.

Near alphas: Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Boston, Wash. D.C., Philly, D-FW, Seattle, M-SP, Montreal. Houston & Atlanta & DFW may be close to alpha status, prob. Miami too. Boston &DC also close.

Important betas: San Diego, Detroit, St.Louis, KC, Cincy, Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Raleigh-Durham- Chapel Hill, Vancouver, Las Vegas, Portland, Tampa-St.Pete, Baltimore, Columbus, Indianapolis, SanAntonio/Austin area (almost near alpha), Calgary, Monterrey & Guadalajara & Puebla MX. Maybe SLC & Winnipeg?

I may have forgotten a city or 2.

I would move Detroit up to the near alphas with Minneapolis and montreal. It’s far too large and important to be in the lower ranks.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by north 42

I would move Detroit up to the near alphas with Minneapolis and montreal. It’s far too large and important to be in the lower ranks.

Yeah, Detroit is definitely more of a peer of the "near alphas" than it is the "important betas". It is still the second most important economy in the Midwest. Baltimore is also a "near alpha" because it's too hard to separate from D.C., IMO.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yeah, Detroit is definitely more of a peer of the "near alphas" than it is the "important betas". It is still the second most important economy in the Midwest.

Agreed.

If MSP is getting placed in the "near alpha" category, then it would be really hard to make an argument for Detroit not being there as well.

[Labtec]

Originally Posted by benp

May actually get an opposite impression of the cities. Houston may be filled with large buildings and massive freeways, but it is without the daily teeming sidewalks of pedestrians one would encounter in Toronto, Boston, and Montreal. I can't speak for Atlanta streets based on my experience, but I expect it is more like a Houston than a Toronto (certainly not like Boston or Montreal).

I recall our foreign visitors in Houston inquiring 'where are all the people?"

There are people out and about in downtown Atlanta, certainly more than Houston's downtown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwwyk_MMdKI

Midtown is where most of the people are at. Also, you can see lots of businessmen mixed with students in areas around downtown: https://goo.gl/maps/QuArSJpGd7xEjS679

[JManc]

Originally Posted by benp

May actually get an opposite impression of the cities. Houston may be filled with large buildings and massive freeways, but it is without the daily teeming sidewalks of pedestrians one would encounter in Toronto, Boston, and Montreal. I can't speak for Atlanta streets based on my experience, but I expect it is more like a Houston than a Toronto (certainly not like Boston or Montreal).

I recall our foreign visitors in Houston inquiring 'where are all the people?"

We hide when people come and visit.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by benp

May actually get an opposite impression of the cities. Houston may be filled with large buildings and massive freeways, but it is without the daily teeming sidewalks of pedestrians one would encounter in Toronto, Boston, and Montreal. I can't speak for Atlanta streets based on my experience, but I expect it is more like a Houston than a Toronto (certainly not like Boston or Montreal).

I recall our foreign visitors in Houston inquiring 'where are all the people?"

That type of urban bipolarness actually sounds very similar to LA.

The freeways are jam packed, but once you get onto the surface streets of DTLA, the congestion largely disappears and pedestrian activity is only apparent in certain areas. Santa Monica and Pasadena has more activity in proportion to their sizes.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yeah, Detroit is definitely more of a peer of the "near alphas" than it is the "important betas". It is still the second most important economy in the Midwest. Baltimore is also a "near alpha" because it's too hard to separate from D.C., IMO.

Yes, Detroit metro is near alpha. me bad

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Agreed.

If MSP is getting placed in the "near alpha" category, then it would be really hard to make an argument for Detroit not being there as well.

Yes, Detroit metro is a near alpha. I had a couple of martinis before I made my list. Mea culpa. Downtown Detroit has an amazing mix of new and old buildings. Happy to see the revival. It will continue.

Another observation: NYC belongs in a category of it's own. Super alpha? It is the super city of North America. Nothing else comes close in power rank, not L.A., Chicago, Mexico City, Toronto, S.F. Not quite London or Paris to the other cities of GB and France, but close in primacy. And in recent years NYC metro has been growing faster than L.A. metro and some of the other alpha metros, at least before covid struck.

It remains to be seen if the pandemic will have a longer term impact on the allure of NYC. Will the high density model regain attractiveness after covid is (hopefully) tamed? My guess is yes, since it is the economically viable way to house middle class and poor in most cities with high living costs and high property costs. But in the viral age, is the high density model less attractive from a public health perspective? Will we keep scattering to the exurbs, or has the return migration to the high rises and subways started in earnest? The defeat of covid is key, as is greater vigilance in preventing future pandemics, and somehow getting the vaccine skeptics to trust science. As I suggested on another thread, a bit tongue in cheek, maybe pay the skeptics to take the jab? A couple of $100s might be cheaper than treating them in the ICU, and get the vaccination rate to levels where the outbreak is tamed.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by homebucket

The freeways are jam packed, but once you get onto the surface streets of DTLA, the congestion largely disappears and pedestrian activity is only apparent in certain areas.

Downtown LA has a fair amount of vehicular activity, although it's not bumper-to-bumper, like you would see in Manhattan or parts of San Francisco.

The pedestrian activity is not terrible either, although, again, not nearly on the same level as New York or San Francisco, or a few others.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

It remains to be seen if the pandemic will have a longer term impact on the allure of NYC. Will the high density model regain attractiveness after covid is (hopefully) tamed? My guess is yes, since it is the economically viable way to house middle class and poor in most cities with high living costs and high property costs. But in the viral age, is the high density model less attractive from a public health perspective? Will we keep scattering to the exurbs, or has the return migration to the high rises and subways started in earnest? The defeat of covid is key, as is greater vigilance in preventing future pandemics, and somehow getting the vaccine skeptics to trust science. As I suggested on another thread, a bit tongue in cheek, maybe pay the skeptics to take the jab? A couple of $100s might be cheaper than treating them in the ICU, and get the vaccination rate to levels where the outbreak is tamed.

I think it's mostly clear that NYC will bounce back, tbh. NYC has been in full throttle recovery since spring 2021. The true lags have been international tourism, because the U.S. wasn't allowing in foreign tourists, and the commercial office districts. I think commercial real estate will recover as people sober up to the limitations of 100% remote work.

NYC also pays people to get vaccinated.

[SFBruin]

I went to Portland (OR) for the first time last week, and it felt much bigger than I was expecting.

I know that Seattle is technically larger, and the suburbs go out much farther, but the actual urban core of Seattle is relatively small.

Portland's central core seemed a little denser, and had the air of that of a bigger city, even if the overall metro isn't as expansive.