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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:10 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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How is DC "culturally Northeastern" again?
Culture can transcend religion and ethnic background. In 2020, Park Ave. Jews aren't really culturally distinct from Park Ave. WASPs. Similarly, DC-area Episcopalians, controlling for income and education, probably aren't that different from NY, Philly or Boston-area Catholics and (secular) Jews.
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:29 PM
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And I suspect this is why a majority of Irish-Americans identify as Protestant (51% vs. 36%, according to Wikipedia).
wow! is that really true?

that's absolutely shocking to me, but my entire paternal lineage is all southside irish catholic (though none of us actually live there anymore), so the idea that an american of irish descent would identify as "protestant" is extremely foreign to me.

perhaps that's because my entire maternal lineage is all northside german/french catholic (chicago has a crapload of german catholics; we're not all lutherans in the windy city), so i never got the diluted irish-american experience of protestantism creeping in.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:45 PM
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wow! is that really true?

that's absolutely shocking to me, but my entire paternal lineage is all southside irish catholic (though none of us actually live there anymore), so the idea that an american of irish descent would identify as "protestant" is extremely foreign to me.
you're talking about the most recent wave but protestants of irish descent have been here 300 + years.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:48 PM
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wow! is that really true?

that's absolutely shocking to me, but my entire paternal lineage is all southside irish catholic (though none of us actually live there anymore), so the idea that an american of irish descent would identify as "protestant" is extremely foreign to me.

perhaps that's because my entire maternal lineage is all northside german/french catholic (chicago has a crapload of german catholics; we're not all lutherans in the windy city), so i never got the diluted irish-american experience of protestantism creeping in.
Ulster (NI) Irish are largely protestant. My Irish relatives were all protestants. NOt that uncommon.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:50 PM
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Culture can transcend religion and ethnic background. In 2020, Park Ave. Jews aren't really culturally distinct from Park Ave. WASPs. Similarly, DC-area Episcopalians, controlling for income and education, probably aren't that different from NY, Philly or Boston-area Catholics and (secular) Jews.
I see the NPR-listening, Trader Joe's-shopping, liberal Democrat-voting upper middle class culture as not particularly "Northeastern" but very "standardized American." It's not that different in the Bay Area, NOVA, suburban Boston or for that matter suburban Atlanta. Transplant-driven culture I see as more New South than Northeast.

It's really the more working class and "ethnic" cultures that makes the urban Northeastern culturally distinctive, in my opinion. Also the lack of unincorporated suburbs, the older housing stock and lac of Sunbelt-type sprawl etc.

I'd say there is a sort of Mid-Atlantic culture that's found not in the "official" Census division but found around DC/Maryland/Virginia though that's sort of transitional between North and South.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:52 PM
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wow! is that really true?

that's absolutely shocking to me, but my entire paternal lineage is all southside irish catholic (though none of us actually live there anymore), so the idea that an american of irish descent would identify as "protestant" is extremely foreign to me.

perhaps that's because my entire maternal lineage is all northside german/french catholic (chicago has a crapload of german catholics; we're not all lutherans in the windy city), so i never got the diluted irish-american experience of protestantism creeping in.
I think the "proud to be Irish" types and the Irish American community are mostly Catholic. But a lot of the Irish ancestry responses are little more than a declaration of one of many ancestries.

Last edited by Docere; Nov 30, 2020 at 7:11 PM.
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:52 PM
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Ulster (NI) Irish are largely protestant. My Irish relatives were all protestants. NOt that uncommon.
yeah i mean these people are who arguably “filled out” almost the entire south, eastern uplands and lower midwest between cities.

i also have protestant irish ancestry, along with huguenot (french protestant) and scottish - they all sort of welded together into the scots-irish people who rampaged over the appalachians basically on foot.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:55 PM
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It's really the more working class and "ethnic" cultures that makes the urban Northeastern culturally distinctive, in my opinion. Also the lack of unincorporated suburbs, the older housing stock and lac of Sunbelt-type sprawl etc.
This. New York, Boston, Philly and the myriad of smaller cities throughout the NE are well known and highly influenced by their working class. The accents, the food, local lore,etc.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 7:03 PM
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A British major general testified to the House of Commons that "half the rebel Continental Army were from Ireland".[67]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 7:27 PM
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I think the "proud to be Irish" types and the Irish American community are mostly Catholic. But a lot of the Irish ancestry responses are little more than a declaration of one of many ancestries.
yeah, i guess so. the protestant form of irish-american simply isn't one that has much of any presence in my world.

hence why i was so shocked to see protestantism actually outweigh catholicism among americans of irish descent.

i mean, generally speaking, you don't see too many protestant groups pulling off drunken feats of stupidity like this.



source: https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/3/17...me-lapse-video
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 7:48 PM
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yeah, i guess so. the protestant form of irish-american simply isn't one that has much of any presence in my world.

hence why i was so shocked to see protestantism actually outweigh catholicism among americans of irish descent.

i mean, generally speaking, you don't see too many protestant groups pulling off drunken feats of stupidity like this.



source: https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/3/17...me-lapse-video
ha, not like that. but instagram is full of people of protestant-irish descent crashing monster trucks and blowing shit up in the countryside. i mean that’s basically the genesis of american “redneck” culture. or...”hillbilly” if you don’t take kindly to that term...


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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 8:38 PM
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And I suspect this is why a majority of Irish-Americans identify as Protestant (51% vs. 36%, according to Wikipedia). Most self-identified “Irish” likely also have German and/or English ancestry mixed in with it (and as such assimilated into Protestant faith), the result having been a steady erosion of Catholic identity since all other American ethnic groups of “fair-skin” Northern/Western European ancestry are generally Protestant-based, French excepted.
No

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The only other explanation is that a good amount of self-identified Irish-Americans are actually Scotch-Irish, but I think this is far less likely of the two.
Yes

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you're talking about the most recent wave but protestants of irish descent have been here 300 + years.
The Pittsburgh region had and likely still has the largest population of Presbyterians in the nation -- these are mainly the "Scots-Irish" (i.e., Northern Irish) who were the first large wave of settlers to the first frontier in the original Colonies way back in the early 1700s.

Irish Catholics didn't immigrate to the US and Canada in large numbers until the 1820s on.
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 8:47 PM
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instagram is full of people of protestant-irish descent crashing monster trucks and blowing shit up in the countryside. i mean that’s basically the genesis of american “redneck” culture. or...”hillbilly” if you don’t take kindly to that term...
yeah, i guess i've never mentally associated "irish" with "redneck".

when you grow up irish catholic in a town like chicago, it's not hard to get the impression that all irish people are catholic by default, even if it's a grossly inaccurate one.

that's why i was so shocked.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 8:50 PM
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Using First Ancestry (2013 is the latest available) to avoid overlap and add some groups together. In other words, this is people's primary identity.



Boston

Irish 16%
British/American 11.9%
Italian 10.5%

Chicago

German 9.8%
Irish 7.1%
Polish 6.8%
British/American 6%
Italian 5.2%

New York

Italian 11%
Irish 6.8%
British/American 6.3%
German 3.9%

Philadelphia

Irish 13%
Italian 10.9%
German 9.9%
British/American 8.6%
I've always been fascinated that Boston is every bit as Italian as NYC, yet that demographic reality hasn't really been interpreted through stereotypes or pop culture. Jay Leno and Steve Carrell (nee Caroselli) are the only Italian Bostonians that immediately come to mind.

I also wonder if NYC's "Irish-ness" is now more legacy than anything else, especially compared to Boston. Boston's Irish heritage is still strong today; parents still name their kids "Ryan Patrick Dolan" or "Shea Keegan McDonagh." There's even a band from Quincy named "Dropkick Murphys." Does that sort of alacrity to proudly identify and proclaim oneself as "Irish" exist in NYC like it does with the Italian and Jewish communities? For what it's worth though, NYPD's police commissioner is named "Dermot Shea" and one "Sean Patrick Maloney" is vying for the chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 8:54 PM
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... the idea that an american of irish descent would identify as "protestant" is extremely foreign to me.
These are the Scots-Irish. People from Northern Ireland. They are the "early arrivers" and settled primarily SW Pennsylvania, and gradually moved west and south.

Irish people identifying as Protestant, especially Presbyterian, is very common.

Once Irish Catholics started coming over a century later, the early arrivals made it clear that they were of "Scots-Irish" stock in order to differentiate themselves from the dirty, poor, union laborer, Catholic Irish of the time.

The Mellon Family are likely the most prominent Irish Protestant WASPs in American history.
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 8:57 PM
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yeah, i guess i've never mentally associated "irish" with "redneck".

when you grow up irish catholic in a town like chicago, it's not hard to get the impression that all irish people are catholic by default, even if it's a grossly inaccurate one.

that's why i was so shocked.
I imagine that there are plenty of Irish Protestants in the Chicago area.
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 8:59 PM
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Yes



The Pittsburgh region had and likely still has the largest population of Presbyterians in the nation -- these are mainly the "Scots-Irish" (i.e., Northern Irish) who were the first large wave of settlers to the first frontier in the original Colonies way back in the early 1700s.

i did overlook the urban populations of scots-irish. even my german ancestors basically jumped on the scots-irish crazy-train, landing at philadelphia first pre-revolution. i did so primarily because, well, they simply arrived so early - flowing into a crazy post-apocalyptic vacuum (collapse of native societies) developing their own traits in isolation - aside from the “western” cities of course like pgh, cincy, even st. louis. the creole population had some interesting commentary when the “kentuckians” (or pennsylvanians) arrived en masse...
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 9:03 PM
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I imagine that there are plenty of Irish Protestants in the Chicago area.
there very well might be (i honestly don't know*), but if there are, they're essentially invisible in relation to chicago's irish catholics, who tend to be a lot more in your face about it.



(*) anecdotal, but i can't remember ever hearing anyone in chicago describe themselves as being "scots-irish". however, that doesn't mean they don't exist here, it just speaks to their "invisibility".
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 30, 2020 at 9:26 PM.
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 9:11 PM
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i did overlook the urban populations of scots-irish. even my german ancestors basically jumped on the scots-irish crazy-train, landing at philadelphia first pre-revolution. i did so primarily because, well, they simply arrived so early - flowing into a crazy post-apocalyptic vacuum (collapse of native societies) developing their own traits in isolation - aside from the “western” cities of course like pgh, cincy, even st. louis. the creole population had some interesting commentary when the “kentuckians” (or pennsylvanians) arrived en masse...
Well, much of rural/small town Pennsylvania is Scots-Irish too.

Not sure what you mean by "Scots-Irish crazy train"..?
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 9:15 PM
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I also wonder if NYC's "Irish-ness" is now more legacy than anything else, especially compared to Boston.
Boston is waaaay more Irish than NYC, but NYC has far more actual Irish immigrants and their kids. The only neighborhoods in the U.S. where you have a substantial concentration of Irish immigrants are along the North Bronx/Yonkers border and in Sunnyside, Queens.

But the Boston area is Irish like the NY area is Jewish. It totally pervades the local gestalt.

Philly is also very Irish. It's probably as Irish as it is Italian. Even South Philly is very Irish towards the river.
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