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  #181  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2021, 11:58 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I wonder if cities like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and St Louis should offer incentives for people to move there? If states can offer financial incentives to get businesses to move, why don't cities that have ample space and reasonable housing costs do the same?
I don't think promoting gentrification would go over that well...
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  #182  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2021, 12:04 AM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
that would fly like a lead ballon in st. louis...

i think its only feasible in towns or small cities that arent particularly politically charged. frankly i’d not be a fan of the idea unless it was a federal program.
Same for Detroit. Also, almost no one in the Detroit area thinks the problem with Detroit is the lack of outsiders moving in. Even though lack of population growth would be one of the first things that outsiders would point at. It might be feasible in a place like Pittsburgh though, where the urban/suburban fault lines don't seem as politically/racially charged.
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  #183  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2021, 3:19 AM
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  #184  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2021, 11:46 PM
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No way in hell I'd live there but travelling the back roads of West Virginia is actually a pretty fascinating experience. The town of Cameron is one of the creepiest places I've ever been to...it truly felt like I had been transported to 1930. There are some towns like that in rural Pennsylvania too.
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  #185  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2021, 1:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I wonder if cities like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and St Louis should offer incentives for people to move there? If states can offer financial incentives to get businesses to move, why don't cities that have ample space and reasonable housing costs do the same?
I don’t really think of Pittsburgh as having “ample space”. Sure, the city itself used to have more than double its current population, but that was with like 6 people per rowhouse. Pittsburgh has very little “urban prairie” in comparison to the other cities listed here.

And people are moving here... though the population is rather flat because it’s tough to keep up with the death rate. Also, as eschaton said, encouraging gentrification is definitely not going to fly here, nor in the other cities I imagine. Many neighborhoods in Pittsburgh have become pretty expensive as it is.

Plus... I am 100% totally fully absolutely content with Pittsburgh’s size. We for some reason always tend to equate population growth with being ‘good’. The Bigger is better notion. I’ll take Pittsburgh any day of the week over a Nashville, Phoenix, Columbus, Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Austin, blah blah blah (and I like all those cities, except for Charlotte and Atlanta maybe)
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  #186  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2021, 2:30 AM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I don’t really think of Pittsburgh as having “ample space”. Sure, the city itself used to have more than double its current population, but that was with like 6 people per rowhouse. Pittsburgh has very little “urban prairie” in comparison to the other cities listed here.

And people are moving here... though the population is rather flat because it’s tough to keep up with the death rate. Also, as eschaton said, encouraging gentrification is definitely not going to fly here, nor in the other cities I imagine. Many neighborhoods in Pittsburgh have become pretty expensive as it is.

Plus... I am 100% totally fully absolutely content with Pittsburgh’s size. We for some reason always tend to equate population growth with being ‘good’. The Bigger is better notion. I’ll take Pittsburgh any day of the week over a Nashville, Phoenix, Columbus, Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Austin, blah blah blah (and I like all those cities, except for Charlotte and Atlanta maybe)
I feel like most of the space in Pittsburgh is ex-industrial and likely requires remediation? Places like: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4271...7i16384!8i8192 ?
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  #187  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2021, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I feel like most of the space in Pittsburgh is ex-industrial and likely requires remediation? Places like: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4271...7i16384!8i8192 ?
As far as larger tracts of land go, yes. Usually the flat stretches along the river fronts. And these are the areas which are being developed currently. Former industrial land within city limits, like the area you highlight, has all been remediated.

The area in your link is being termed “Hazelwood Green”, which I think is a stupid, cliched, “real estate” name, but that’s another matter. There has been significant redevelopment on that site already, but clearly there is a lot of empty land where a massive steel mill once stretched. It’s definitely the only site like this in the city limits... that being such a big, continuous stretch.
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  #188  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2021, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I don’t really think of Pittsburgh as having “ample space”. Sure, the city itself used to have more than double its current population, but that was with like 6 people per rowhouse. Pittsburgh has very little “urban prairie” in comparison to the other cities listed here.

And people are moving here... though the population is rather flat because it’s tough to keep up with the death rate. Also, as eschaton said, encouraging gentrification is definitely not going to fly here, nor in the other cities I imagine. Many neighborhoods in Pittsburgh have become pretty expensive as it is.

Plus... I am 100% totally fully absolutely content with Pittsburgh’s size. We for some reason always tend to equate population growth with being ‘good’. The Bigger is better notion. I’ll take Pittsburgh any day of the week over a Nashville, Phoenix, Columbus, Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Austin, blah blah blah (and I like all those cities, except for Charlotte and Atlanta maybe)
As I've noted in the past, if you take into account the fall of household size, Pittsburgh is actually only around 110,000 below its all-time peak. And a lot of what has been lost has been due to highway construction, urban renewal (and rebuilt non-residential or at a much lower structural density) or the loss of homes on steep slopes which never should have been built at all.

That's not to say there's not vacant lots left to fill in - mostly in historically black neighborhoods (Homewood, Garfield, California-Kirkbride, Beltzhoover, etc.) but also a few white ones (Spring Garden, Esplen, etc). But I don't think a comprehensive infill of all of the blighted neighborhoods would get you more than another 50,000 people. You'd need full-scale upzoning/building at a much higher structural density than was historic to get much beyond that. Not to mention having to completely revamp our transit infrastructure.
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  #189  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2021, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I wonder if cities like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and St Louis should offer incentives for people to move there? If states can offer financial incentives to get businesses to move, why don't cities that have ample space and reasonable housing costs do the same?
The incentive is the reasonable housing cost. Especially now when housing costs everywhere are through the roof.

Detroit doesn't need to bribe individuals. There's exploding population and investment in it's central areas and the desired neighborhoods. The jobs bring in most of the people, and high paying jobs have been pouring in at an accelerated rate through various projects. Also, home buyers do get some incentive in the form of NEZ which lowers property taxes.

If you're talking more about growing the regional population then the best way to do that is immigration.

States offering business incentives to huge companies is still a losing game. I don't feel like that's a good example to go off of. That money is better spent on improvements to infrastructure and public amenities, things that improve life in cities for everybody.
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  #190  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2021, 2:37 PM
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You'd need full-scale upzoning/building at a much higher structural density than was historic to get much beyond that. Not to mention having to completely revamp our transit infrastructure.
Don't threaten me with a good time.


The hand-wringing over gentrification in Pittsburgh is so unnecessary. There are a few neighborhoods where the purchase price of homes has skyrocketed, but most of those neighborhoods were already in demand and focused on the East End. We have dozens of neighborhoods and municipalities that range from affordable to bombed out, but the people who cry the most about gentrification are mostly college-educated whites that don't want to live in Brookline, Whitehall, or Homewood because they are either not cool enough or... you know why.

East Liberty is the posterchild for Pittsburgh gentrification but the median rental price in that neighborhood is actually $100 less per month than in 2017 after accounting for inflation.

I agree that Pittsburgh doesn't need to incentivize people to move with money, grants, and such. But we do need to somehow get businesses to relocate because pre-pandemic job growth here is roughly 1% across the board and is negative in several sectors.
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  #191  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2021, 3:21 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy View Post
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The hand-wringing over gentrification in Pittsburgh is so unnecessary. There are a few neighborhoods where the purchase price of homes has skyrocketed, but most of those neighborhoods were already in demand and focused on the East End. We have dozens of neighborhoods and municipalities that range from affordable to bombed out, but the people who cry the most about gentrification are mostly college-educated whites that don't want to live in Brookline, Whitehall, or Homewood because they are either not cool enough or... you know why.

East Liberty is the posterchild for Pittsburgh gentrification but the median rental price in that neighborhood is actually $100 less per month than in 2017 after accounting for inflation.

I agree that Pittsburgh doesn't need to incentivize people to move with money, grants, and such. But we do need to somehow get businesses to relocate because pre-pandemic job growth here is roughly 1% across the board and is negative in several sectors.
To be fair, real estate prices are up basically everywhere in the city. When first started looking for homes back in 2007 you could find plenty of habitable homes in sketchy neighborhoods (not even stone-cold ghetto) for like $30,000. My first home cost $54,000. Now I'd say you generally get guts at that price, and need to pay something like $100,000 to get something habitable in a non-ghetto neighborhood. Still affordable, but not "buy a house for the price of a car" like it used to be.
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  #192  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2021, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
No way in hell I'd live there but travelling the back roads of West Virginia is actually a pretty fascinating experience. The town of Cameron is one of the creepiest places I've ever been to...it truly felt like I had been transported to 1930. There are some towns like that in rural Pennsylvania too.
I google mapped Cameron.
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  #193  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2021, 6:14 PM
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sad to see how far places like Cameron have fallen.
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  #194  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 9:14 PM
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Well, it seems like it was successful in NW Arkansas - article says 29,000 people applied... even Hawaii is trying to lure tech workers and got 90K applicants and Tulsa claims 50K applicants...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/want-move...155513178.html
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  #195  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 11:47 PM
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I don't think number of applications has any relevance to measure of success, at all.

The objective isn't to create paperwork, but to create new relocates, and who otherwise wouldn't have relocated.
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  #196  
Old Posted May 2, 2021, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Well, it seems like it was successful in NW Arkansas - article says 29,000 people applied... even Hawaii is trying to lure tech workers and got 90K applicants and Tulsa claims 50K applicants...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/want-move...155513178.html
NW Arkansas and Tulsa both have wealthy private foundations that are funding these programs. I know in Tulsa’s case some of these people relocating are working for the foundation or one of its initiatives which include parks, early childhood education, venture capital, technology incubators and real estate development.

Both areas are naturally growing, especially the NW Arkansas metro, but wanted to further diversify their economies. In Tulsa’s case it is dominated by the energy and aerospace industries but also has 4 Fortune 500 HQ’s and NW Arkansas is dominated by Wal-Mart (and its ancillary businesses), Tyson and JB Hunt.
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