CHICAGO: 'Redefine the Drive' - 'Bike the Drive' Day!

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

This is actually one of the exact points that I have been raising.

We, in fact, don't have access to the Lake. Residents of Lake Shore Drive live in a park desert.

An informal study which I did compared Humboldt Park access to Lincoln Park access from adjacent properties.

For HP, you walk out your front door, walk to the next corner, cross the street, be it on Kedzie, California, Division, or North, and you are in the park. (truth be told, North is not as transparent a street as the others).

For LV, you have to walk significantly farther and navigate a tangle of outdated infrastructure.

If any are curious, I can post the maps I made but living on Lake Shore does not mean that you have access to or are connected to the lake shore.

My god, what hyperbole! Residents along LSD live in a park desert? How hard is it to walk a block or two to a grade-separated crossing of LSD? Between the tunnels, bridges and major roads there are many safe places to cross.

I'm not going to feel bad for Lakefront residents and their access to parks. At the same time, a few new crossings world be a good thing.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Innsertnamehere]

I don’t live in Chicago but have visited several times, as recently as a few weeks ago. I’m familiar with the Kennedy’s traffic issues, with the conditions of actually using the pedestrian tunnels, what it’s like to drive on LSD, the areas it generally serves, etc, though am obviously not an actual resident.

Chicago is new compared to Boston or New York, yes, and was even smaller than Toronto until the middle of the 19th century, but it’s urban form around LSD was mostly developed well before the automobile was really around, which is the key part, since it means the built form is generally quite supportive of transit.

Chicago has something like 26 lanes of inbound freeway capacity into its core. I posted it elsewhere but I did a similar count of other major US cities and IIRC none other than Houston, Dallas, and LA have as many. Compare to Toronto, which has 6-8 inbound lanes depending on how you count it, and which has a generally similar built form and is of similar size.

Regardless, to me the issue of LSD is the barrier it creates to the lake… and to me looking from an outsiders perspective who’s relatively familiar with the city, the highway seems largely overkill for what it needs to do and could likely be downsized significantly.

[Howard_L]

Originally Posted by glowrock

My god, what hyperbole! Residents along LSD live in a park desert?

Let me explain why I used that term. It's based on the commonly used term 'food desert' meaning that residents in certain neighborhoods need to travel farther and exert more effort to reach a supermarket than residents in other areas. Similarly residents on Lake Shore need to travel farther and exert more effort to reach the park.

They can still get to a store and we can still get to the park but it is higher than the median time/effort in other areas. Using one example, the Kedzie side of Humboldt Park between Division and North: (9) at grade access points in 1/2 mile, or park access roughly every (300) feet. Lincoln Park between Belmont and Addison (Waveland underpass): (2) tunnels, (1) highway underpass in 3520 feet, or park access roughly every +/-1100 feet.

That means it takes a person living on Lake Shore nearly three times longer to get to the park across the street than it does for person living on that stretch of Kedzie.

I think 'Park Desert' is an apt term.

[Steely Dan]

^ even if you turn north LSD into some down-sized at-grade boulevard with signaled intersections at the major streets, you're still never gonna get anywhere remotely close to ped-crossings every 300'.

every 1/4 mile or so is still the best you're gonna realistically get, which is roughly the current access interval north of addison.

south of addison there are some longer stretches without access over/under LSD, and i'm 100% in favor of spending money on more ped bridges/tunnels there.

that said, one of the longer stretches of limited access is from diversey down to the north avenue beach bridge (the fullerton underpass is the only access point within those 1.25 miles), but the real issue there isn't so much LSD as it is diversey harbor/south lagoon cutting off access. another bad stretch is the 3/4 of a mile from the chess pavilion tunnel down to the oak street beach tunnel; that could absolutely use more ped/bike permeability.


and though i'm not against your efforts to "de-expressway-ify" north LSD, i don't honestly see it happening anytime soon, so i think that getting some real dedicated bus lanes on LSD (not just a coat of paint), more ped/bike permeability with tunnels bridges, and increased parkland from north down to ohio is the best realistic outcome here.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ even if you turn north LSD into some down-sized at-grade boulevard with signaled intersections at the major streets, you're still never gonna get anywhere remotely close to ped-crossings every 300'.

every 1/4 mile or so is still the best you're gonna realistically get, which is roughly the current access interval north of addison.

south of addison there are some longer stretches without access over/under LSD, and i'm 100% in favor of spending money on more ped bridges/tunnels there.

that said, one of the longer stretches of limited access is from diversey down to the north avenue beach bridge (the fullerton underpass is the only access point within those 1.25 miles), but the real issue there isn't so much LSD as it is diversey harbor/south lagoon cutting off access. another bad stretch is the 3/4 of a mile from the chess pavilion tunnel down to the oak street beach tunnel; that could absolutely use more ped/bike permeability.


and though i'm not against your efforts to "de-expressway-ify" north LSD, i don't honestly see it happening anytime soon, so i think that getting some real dedicated bus lanes on LSD, more ped/bike permeability with tunnels bridges, and increased parkland from north down to ohio is the best realistic outcome here.

Agreed on all counts. Again, I'm totally in favor of adding grade separated pedestrian/bike crossings across LSD along with a dedicated bus lane. This makes perfect sense. Turning LSD from an effort into a pathway isn't going to happen.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Steely Dan]

I'd also like to add that calling the entire stretch of north LSD a "park desert" for all residents living along it is absurd.

there are some places where there is little to no parkland west of LSD, but there are also long stretches where there's absolutely useable parkland with direct access from the neighborhoods without even any need to cross LSD - everything north of montrose, and the 2 miles from the south end of belmont harbor down to north avenue.

[Six Corners]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

Let me explain why I used that term. It's based on the commonly used term 'food desert' meaning that residents in certain neighborhoods need to travel farther and exert more effort to reach a supermarket than residents in other areas. Similarly residents on Lake Shore need to travel farther and exert more effort to reach the park.

They can still get to a store and we can still get to the park but it is higher than the median time/effort in other areas. Using one example, the Kedzie side of Humboldt Park between Division and North: (9) at grade access points in 1/2 mile, or park access roughly every (300) feet. Lincoln Park between Belmont and Addison (Waveland underpass): (2) tunnels, (1) highway underpass in 3520 feet, or park access roughly every +/-1100 feet.

That means it takes a person living on Lake Shore nearly three times longer to get to the park across the street than it does for person living on that stretch of Kedzie.

I think 'Park Desert' is an apt term.

I'm all for creating more access points to the lake front but I think it's a little extreme to call that stretch a "park desert." The 1100 foot distance you quoted equals about 1 city block length-wise or 2.5 blocks width-wise. Anecdotally, I've never not gone to a park because it's a single city block away regardless if I can see if from my point of origin. My now wife used to live on one of the streets between Belmont and Addison off Inner Lake Shore when we were dating and I personally never thought "man, the lake shore is just too hard to get to."

Furthermore, you're only examining people who live across the street from the park rather than within the walkable catchment zone of the park and you're also not factoring in what part of the park people are interested in going to. Simply being within the boundary of a park isn't all that satisfying to most people unless they're just there to let their dog out. Most have a part of the park they want to go to and it's usually not on the fringe. But that's all getting a little too far into the weeds.

[Howard_L]

Originally Posted by Six Corners

The 1100 foot distance you quoted equals about 1 city block length-wise or 2.5 blocks width-wise.

A Chicago long block is 660 feet and a short block is 330 feet. The Addison to Belmont stretch of the Drive is a modified version of short blocks.

Also, I think several of you are proving my point: the perception of life on Lake Shore and the reality of life on Lake Shore are not congruent.

Had I bought a place a few blocks over, it can be assumed that my choice was based on other preferences: across from the school, around the corner from the L, close to my favorite shops; pick any of the factors which go into choosing where to live.

I made a choice to be close the Lake and the park. Buyer beware, living on Lake Shore does not mean that you are close to either.

The current Redefine the Drive project propagates the mistakes of the last century. To quote Bowen Yang "White Star Line, you built a bad boat."

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

I made a choice to be close the Lake and the park. Buyer beware, living on Lake Shore does not automatically mean that you are close to either.

FTFY.

my mom and dad live in park tower up at Sheridan/Balmoral.

When you walk out the back door of their building you are directly in parkland west of LSD, and a 5 minute walk through that parkland gets you to a ped tunnel under LSD that dumps you at the north end of foster beach.

We make that walk a lot with them.

#multigenerationalbeachfamily

[homebucket]

Is it feasible to bury some parts of LSD and built parkland over it in select sections where a high density walkable neighborhood interfaces directly with parts of the park which feature a lot of amenities and attractions? I agree with the others that getting rid of it entirely is not an option given it is a major thoroughfare.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Is it feasible to bury some parts of LSD and built parkland over it in select sections where a high density walkable neighborhood interfaces directly with parts of the park which feature a lot of amenities and attractions?

not being a civil engineer, i can't really speak to "feasibility" (beyond many, MANY things being feasible if the check has enough zeroes on it ), but some ambitious (pipe-dreamy?) LSD improvement plans over the years have included "buried" sections of LSD to improve connectivity as crucial spots.



current:


source: https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2017...-ohio/#slide-3



ambitious proposal:


source: https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2017...-ohio/#slide-3

[Innsertnamehere]

Another solution may be lake fill to simply extend the lake side part out to enlarge it and make sure a waterfront walk also doesn’t feel like a walk alongside a freeway.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

A Chicago long block is 660 feet and a short block is 330 feet. The Addison to Belmont stretch of the Drive is a modified version of short blocks.

Also, I think several of you are proving my point: the perception of life on Lake Shore and the reality of life on Lake Shore are not congruent.

Had I bought a place a few blocks over, it can be assumed that my choice was based on other preferences: across from the school, around the corner from the L, close to my favorite shops; pick any of the factors which go into choosing where to live.

I made a choice to be close the Lake and the park. Buyer beware, living on Lake Shore does not mean that you are close to either.

The current Redefine the Drive project propagates the mistakes of the last century. To quote Bowen Yang "White Star Line, you built a bad boat."

I get that in America walking more than a couple hundred feet is unheard of, but really??? Living along the north lakefront and having to cross at one of many bridges or tunnels every thousand feet or so makes the area a
"park desert"? That is absurd. The north lakefront has excellent access to Lincoln Park and the lakefront, this is evidenced by the fact that every weekend the lakefront is packed with tens of thousands of people. The north lakefront is the last place in the city that I would call a park desert. I live here because of the easy proximity to the lake and lakefront trail. I don't understand where you are coming from with this critique, at all.

[Howard_L]

I just did a cocktail napkin comparison among Humboldt, Garfield, Douglass, Marquette, Washington, Jackson, and the LV section of Lincoln Park to measure the number of access points per mile (sorry, Chicago's layout lends itself to Imperial measurements).

The most accessible segment of these parks is Humboldt on Division between Sacramento and California, with 19.56 access points per mile.

Second to last place, Marquette Park along the freight rail line between Marquette and 71st with 4.00 access points per mile and dead last is Lincoln Park between Belmont and Addison with 3.20 access points.

I want to double check my data one more time but I can post if anyone is interested in verifying my methodology.

Like I asserted earlier, Lake Shore is a park desert.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

Like I asserted earlier, Lake Shore is a park desert.

your assertion is ridiculous.

which is probably why no one here is buying it.


now, could some lakefront neighborhoods like lakeview benefit from more connectivity across LSD? absolutely yes!

but that is not the same thing as a park desert.

[Howard_L]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that is not the same thing as a park desert.

Help me grow as a person. How would you or anyone else define a park desert given the data I just posted?

[Six Corners]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

A Chicago long block is 660 feet and a short block is 330 feet. The Addison to Belmont stretch of the Drive is a modified version of short blocks.

You were specifically referencing the modified blocks between Addison and Belmont, hence my measurements.

I made a choice to be close the Lake and the park. Buyer beware, living on Lake Shore does not mean that you are close to either.

it sounds like your gripes stem from buying a place on this portion of LSD before exploring the area to see if it met your expectations. Fortunately real estate is cheaper on Kedzie in front of Humboldt Park.

[Six Corners]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

Help me grow as a person. How would you or anyone else define a park desert given the data I just posted?

Well it's a term you've made up. But matching to a food desert, it's a distance of 1 mile in urban areas. A quarter mile to a half mile is often the goal for max distance to walk to a park in areas like chicago.

Otherwise it's too complex of a question that has too many factors involved. What are the demographics of the local population? What will they be in the future? Are they old? School-aged? What about the park? Does it have many amenities, or few? A playground? Ball courts? Is it well designed or kinda off-putting?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Howard_L

How would you or anyone else define a park desert?

a park desert would be a place without parks in my eyes.

the parkland is there along the lake in lakeview, the city just needs to build more ped tunnels/bridges to get across LSD.

in particular the 1/2 mile stretch from the addison tunnel to the roscoe tunnel could really use an intermediate access point somewhere around stratford pl.


i would describe west lakeview away from the lake as much more of a park desert, at least in terms of convenient walking access to open green space beyond small little neighborhood playgrounds and school yard athletic fields. if you lived at say, roscoe/southport, your gonna have a pretty long walk to get to a decently-sized park.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

a park desert would be a place without parks in my eyes.

the parkland is there along the lake in lakeview, the city just needs to build more ped tunnels/bridges to get across LSD.

in particular the 1/2 mile stretch from the addison tunnel to the roscoe tunnel could really use an intermediate access point somewhere around stratford pl.


i would describe west lakeview away from the lake as much more of a park desert, at least in terms of convenient walking access to open green pace beyond small little neighborhood playgrounds and school yards. if you lived at say, roscoe/southport, your gonna have a pretty long walk to get to a decently-sized park.

Ridiculous to even think of the north side lakefront neighborhoods as a park desert. If anything, they have it great - they (as I did) can walk a few hundred feet, or better yet ride a bike to the parkland and Lake Michigan. I remember that every summer weekend, tons of cars with families would come in off of LSD exits like Belmont and Irving Park or from the east-west streets to the parks on the lake looking to picnic.