PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Love the ticket idea, but SEPTA needs to get past the already outdated Key system and go with Apple Wallet and the like.

The septa payment situation is pretty mind blowing. My family was just in town last month for a few days and we took Ubers several times instead of getting on the bus b/c the system is so wonky. Just let me pay for multiple people. That would solve the entire issue. Actually also moving the key to Apple Pay and allowing me to pay with my phone is needed too. As soon as I get in NYC I get a notification that I can use my card in my Apple wallet to pay. How SEPTA hasn’t done that yet is beyond me.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Love the ticket idea, but SEPTA needs to get past the already outdated Key system and go with Apple Wallet and the like.

It needs both.

No 75 year old is going to use their Apple Wallet to get on Septa.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Love the ticket idea, but SEPTA needs to get past the already outdated Key system and go with Apple Wallet and the like.

God I hope they don't do that. I hate that the 6ers don't give out real tickets anymore and I need to have a charged phone to get into the building. Making sure I'm charged to leave the game too? No thanks. I'm fine with the option existing, but give me a way to pay that doesn't require a phone battery lasting all day and night.

That's not to say there aren't issues with the current key system. Paying for multiple people, getting new users cards, the current website UI, etc can all be rough. I just don't want to rely fully on my phone for EVERYTHING. It can and will die. [/end old man rant]

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

It needs both.

No 75 year old is going to use their Apple Wallet to get on Septa.

Maybe? I'm 55 and I find the Key way more cumbersome than simply buying a ticket or using Apple (which, I think, is simpler yet). It was cool that, just before COVID, I could finally ditch standing in line at an MTA machine and just tap my way onto the subway.

[christof]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

36th and Market has buildings on all four corners.

Typo - 34th & Market.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

The septa payment situation is pretty mind blowing. My family was just in town last month for a few days and we took Ubers several times instead of getting on the bus b/c the system is so wonky. Just let me pay for multiple people. That would solve the entire issue. Actually also moving the key to Apple Pay and allowing me to pay with my phone is needed too. As soon as I get in NYC I get a notification that I can use my card in my Apple wallet to pay. How SEPTA hasn’t done that yet is beyond me.

Bingo. I'd almost rather drive than deal with the unnecessary complexity of riding the electric sewer. I'd rather keep track of tokens if I can't Apple Pay.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

How SEPTA hasn’t done that yet is beyond me.

The turnstiles/software that SEPTA was forced to buy because of the "lowest bidder" process literally cannot support Apple Pay in their current form. The hardware, despite being RFID enabled, apparently has some issues with contactless credit cards, and the software does NOT have Apple/Google Pay compatibility built in.

There is currently a discussion of getting new turnstiles, and Key 2.0 should hopefully have contactless pay.

The whole not being able to double tap the key comes from the desire to have fare capping. I am not sure how OMNY in NYC handles double tapping of credit cards/Apple Pay, but I would be very interested in seeing if it even allows it.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Bingo. I'd almost rather drive than deal with the unnecessary complexity of riding the electric sewer. I'd rather keep track of tokens if I can't Apple Pay.

I don't understand why any metro system has to reinvent payment systems. Go to nearly any metro system in Europe or Asia and simply implement their system. I'm sure it's more complicated than that but I'm always blown away how much nicer almost every other transit system is outside the U.S.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by japmes

I don't understand why any metro system has to reinvent payment systems. Go to nearly any metro system in Europe or Asia and simply implement their system. I'm sure it's more complicated than that but I'm always blown away how much nicer almost every other transit system is outside the U.S.

It's a bidding and public money thing. Public Transit agencies here have much less agency than those in Europe because they're 1) Less Ridden and 2) Use archaic charters that barely give them any autonomy over themselves. SEPTA has been trying to adopt "Best Qualified" bidding for awhile now, and the fact that it's taken any more time than a few meetings and a snap of some fingers is reflective of the fact that bureaucracy sucks.

[William Van Alen]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It's a bidding and public money thing. Public Transit agencies here have much less agency than those in Europe because they're 1) Less Ridden and 2) Use archaic charters that barely give them any autonomy over themselves. SEPTA has been trying to adopt "Best Qualified" bidding for awhile now, and the fact that it's taken any more time than a few meetings and a snap of some fingers is reflective of the fact that bureaucracy sucks.

Curious to hear more about the differences between Best Qualified vs Lowest Bid methods. I think I get the general gist, but is there any history as to why things are done like that here? Do you have some good examples of when lowest bid worked out poorly? Why has it not been changed?

I work in real estate development now for a smaller company that typically goes with the lowest bidder. However, we recently signed some large tenants who run their own fit out projects who don't go with the lowest bidder. Seeing the difference in quality, organization, and responsiveness is really pretty eye opening.

Maybe this discussion belongs in the transportation thread?

[PurpleWhiteOut]

I just want to chime in as another of the minority opinion. I hate everything about the stadium location plan between the waste of tax dollars poured into the renovation, the mall probably shooting itself in the foot for the next 5 years since no one will want to sign a lease there now, and just imagining how much of a cluster this is going to be for Chinatown and Washington Square West. Unless they can move to the rest of the FD, there aren't any good large footprints in CC for a movie theater and arcade which have been great additions to the city. Unless there's good street facing retail, which I'm not sure there will be space for, it could be a pedestrian dead zone most of the year/most of the day. There are so many venues these days that they'll be competing with for concerts. 8th and Market would be better, but I'm not personally a fan of a downtown stadium at all.

5 years is a long time, so maybe I'll change my mind by then, but I doubt it. A mixed use residential/office overbuild for the FD is still the best use for this area imo.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by William Van Alen

Curious to hear more about the differences between Best Qualified vs Lowest Bid methods. I think I get the general gist, but is there any history as to why things are done like that here? Do you have some good examples of when lowest bid worked out poorly? Why has it not been changed?

I work in real estate development now for a smaller company that typically goes with the lowest bidder. However, we recently signed some large tenants who run their own fit out projects who don't go with the lowest bidder. Seeing the difference in quality, organization, and responsiveness is really pretty eye opening.

Maybe this discussion belongs in the transportation thread?

I think it still is appropriate to talk about here because it doesn't just apply to SEPTA, or any transit agency alone. It applies to government agencies, private companies, and certainly land development.

Going with the lowest bidder no matter what leads to some pretty crappy products. The SEPTA Key, MBTA CRRC Subway Cars, etc. all came about as a result of going with the lowest bidder, even if they weren't well qualified. I'm sure that the City bids on some projects that get a horrible low-ball bid that ends up completely backfiring.

Best Qualified Bidding can still mean the lowest bidder, but it essentially requires companies putting out for bids to give a list of qualifications and how important each qualification is. For instance, if I solicit bids on a construction project and get two bids, one from a well-respected company known for quality work and another from a little-known company that is about 2/3 the price of the other, I may choose to go with the former, depending on how little faith I have in the latter.

[skyhigh07]

I honestly don’t get all of the concerns. It won’t be the first basketball venue in an urban area. See MSQ, Boston Celtics etc etc. As for retail, I’m glad the mall is going by the wayside. Stores there will likely just relocate to street accessible storefronts which is a good thing.. I’m sure AMC can plan ahead to find another suitable location.

And it’s not like they’re putting the Phillies or Eagles stadiums downtown - it’s a basketball court, it’ll just take up one block.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

The septa payment situation is pretty mind blowing. My family was just in town last month for a few days and we took Ubers several times instead of getting on the bus b/c the system is so wonky. Just let me pay for multiple people. That would solve the entire issue. Actually also moving the key to Apple Pay and allowing me to pay with my phone is needed too. As soon as I get in NYC I get a notification that I can use my card in my Apple wallet to pay. How SEPTA hasn’t done that yet is beyond me.

Ugh, don't even get me started. Too late. Key sucks ass and so does SEPTA. I recall using it with my wife and excuse me for thinking that a ticketing system unveiled what a solid decade (longer?) after NYC would be comparable. Imagine my shock when I swiped my Key card and - gasp - attempted to swipe it a second time for my wife. No, no, she needs her own Key card. Why? If you purchase a set number of trips, why would it matter who you pay for? (I've done this numerous times in NYC.) It makes zero sense when your Key card is loaded with a fixed dollar amount.

Now, SEPTA better get ready. I can see it now: a family from the burbs looking to take the train to the Sixers game; going on SEPTA's website, and discovering how complicated and difficult it is to acquire a Key Card (most stations don't have a kiosk); they'll look at the infrequent headways and relative expense of tickets for a family; and they'll decide that driving is just easier - and they'd probably be right. Any other transit agency, I would say, well they have about 10 years to figure it out. SEPTA? I have no faith. The Key debacle just shows, no matter how much time you give SEPTA, they'll still figure out a way to eff it up.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by McBane

Ugh, don't even get me started. Too late. Key sucks ass and so does SEPTA. I recall using it with my wife and excuse me for thinking that a ticketing system unveiled what a solid decade (longer?) after NYC would be comparable. Imagine my shock when I swiped my Key card and - gasp - attempted to swipe it a second time for my wife. No, no, she needs her own Key card. Why? If you purchase a set number of trips, why would it matter who you pay for? (I've done this numerous times in NYC.) It makes zero sense.

Now, SEPTA better get ready. I can see it now: a family from the burbs looking to take the train to the Sixers game; going on SEPTA's website, and discovering how complicated and difficult it is to acquire a Key Card (most stations don't have a kiosk); they'll look at the infrequent headways and relative expense of tickets for a family; and they'll decide that driving is just easier - and they'd probably be right. Any other transit agency, I would say, well they have about 10 years to figure it out. SEPTA? I have no faith. The Key debacle just shows, no matter how much time you give SEPTA, they'll still figure out a way to eff it up.

Again, I don't understand what there is to figure out. There are great models of payment systems all over the world. Just pick one and do it! I'm sure it's all about the money...but then we hear about the billions the agency intends to spend on a silly spur line to KOP.

[William Van Alen]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I think it still is appropriate to talk about here because it doesn't just apply to SEPTA, or any transit agency alone. It applies to government agencies, private companies, and certainly land development.

Going with the lowest bidder no matter what leads to some pretty crappy products. The SEPTA Key, MBTA CRRC Subway Cars, etc. all came about as a result of going with the lowest bidder, even if they weren't well qualified. I'm sure that the City bids on some projects that get a horrible low-ball bid that ends up completely backfiring.

Best Qualified Bidding can still mean the lowest bidder, but it essentially requires companies putting out for bids to give a list of qualifications and how important each qualification is. For instance, if I solicit bids on a construction project and get two bids, one from a well-respected company known for quality work and another from a little-known company that is about 2/3 the price of the other, I may choose to go with the former, depending on how little faith I have in the latter.

Makes sense, thanks! Is best qualified typically how things are done in Europe/Asia (or anywhere else that has good transit)? I wish I could utilize this method more in my own work, but unfortunately those decisions aren't up to me.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by William Van Alen

Makes sense, thanks! Is best qualified typically how things are done in Europe/Asia (or anywhere else that has good transit)? I wish I could utilize this method more in my own work, but unfortunately those decisions aren't up to me.

Obviously, I don't understand the RFP process for public agencies, but it seems like SEPTA should be able to put out an RFP for a particular payment system instead of just say, give us the cheapest system you can devise. Even with "Lowest Bid", the agency should still be able to define the payment system it wants. I'm just an old man yelling at clouds at this point.

[El Duderino]

https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phil...nother-thought

thoughts? could be pretty interesting

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phil...nother-thought

thoughts? could be pretty interesting

I have been suggesting this for well over two years now. I feel like I've been screaming into the void.

[Raja]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phil...nother-thought

thoughts? could be pretty interesting

Better for traffic; not quite as good in terms of surrounding business, dining, and entertainment options; doesn't come with the bonus of ripping off the band aid and fixing FD. All in all, I'd still strongly, strongly support it.