The future: enclavism or the melting pot?

[liat91]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Understandable but still very pointless. As this country becomes more minority-majority, of course the pie will be more equally distributed, with the non-Hispanic white portion being reduced as a result.

And even then, as others have pointed out, not much will change in the mainstream culture. Millennial blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc are roughly the same as millennial whites. After a few generations within the US, everyone shares into the American vision.

Not true. I’ve lived all over this country and this is far from the case. There may be the talented and tantalizing tenth who might tolerate each other, but that’s as far as it goes.

[liat91]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

People by in large self segregate. The melting pot notion is noble in that it means all are welcome, but when it comes to neighborhoods, people choose to live by those who are like themselves.

When we’ve reached a certain level of diversity where the main stream means looks and money, this country will fragment to the point of a truly insidious slide to sub super power status. We can be the great experiment all we want, but it will cost us globally.

I have a feeling that the grand architects believe that if we strongly represent all areas of the globe that we'll be in a stronger position to lead the world. They need however, to ask WHY the world respects our strengths besides our military. It’s isn’t because of our diversity, I can assure you of that.

I’ve seen our military become more fractured as well.

[homebucket]

I think millennial blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc are more aware and appreciative of their ancestry and cultures that came before them, than ever before. There's a huge push towards language retention, maintaining unique cultural practices, and enclavism that has really picked up in the last 5 years, whereas before I think we were sorta heading towards a melting pot. There has definitely been a paradigm shift largely as a result of a push back from MAGAism.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I think millennial blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc are more aware and appreciative of their ancestry and cultures that came before them, than ever before. There's a huge push towards language retention, maintaining unique cultural practices, and enclavism that has really picked up in the last 5 years, whereas before I think we were sorta heading towards a melting pot. There has definitely been a paradigm shift largely as a result of a push back from MAGAism.

I haven't really seen that. At least in the under 20 crowd. All the Hispanic immigrants that I work with are always complaining that their American born children can't speak Spanish and that they never use it.

[bossabreezes]

I think a few years ago we were on the track to melting pot, but not anymore. The mainstream flow is extremely self segregating.

In the past there was an equalizing culture that united everyone regardless of their external/superficial factors. This has completely flipped since around 2010ish.

Although, at second thought, Americans have always been pathologically obsessed with race/ethnicity, so maybe this has always been this way but now its just supercharged and in your face every waking second.

[RST500]

California NIMBY Cities must pursue Enclave Status or embrace the inevitable YIMBY Future:


https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...es-must-pursue

[craigs]

Originally Posted by RST500

California NIMBY Cities must pursue Enclave Status or embrace the inevitable YIMBY Future:

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...es-must-pursue

RST, are you Robert Stark?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dave8721

I haven't really seen that. At least in the under 20 crowd. All the Hispanic immigrants that I work with are always complaining that their American born children can't speak Spanish and that they never use it.

This is true, though ethnic enclaves can still persist even in the context where a community has mostly assimilated to English.

[RST500]

Pan-enclavism:

"Pan-Enclavism calls for a serious of homogenous and semi-autonomous communities that are part of a broader multi-ethnic and multi-cultural patchwork. It encourages neighborhoods to think of themselves as a people with shared bonds and it celebrates and supports existing ethnic and immigrant enclaves. It also calls for those who don’t currently take part in enclavism to emulate diasporas in creating their own enclaves, for building communities based on an identity, for freedom of association as the main principle, for the creation of opt-in groups, places value in people having these groups to help fulfill their personal needs, and opposes primary loyalty to mass society. These enclaves could be based upon an ethnic background but are flexible in that they could be multi-ethnic communities of people with shared values, such as politics, religion, culture, or aesthetic preference. It calls for thinking in terms of an area as a community that serves its residents rather than just a place to live and work with the added benefit of a balance in political and economic power."


https://robertstark.substack.com/p/alt-center-lexicon

[isaidso]

I'd take multiculturalism over both of those options (melting pot and enclavism). Multiculturalism encourages people to celebrate the culture of their home country along side the culture of their adopted country. The goal is to have people of all stripes living side by side, not in enclaves. It's much harder to learn about your adopted country if you live in an enclave so it doesn't mesh with the concept of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism was enshrined in our Constitution in 1982. No one feels pressure to play baseball, eat pancakes, or wear a toque to feel Canadian. What makes you Canadian is having respect for the values and principles set out in the Charter of Rights & Freedoms and becoming a citizen. Immigrants feel Canadian and part of the greater society very quickly. Within 1-2 generations we all end up in the same place any way. We meld together naturally over time.

[craigs]

I see you are quoting yourself again.

Originally Posted by RST500

Pan-enclavism:

"Pan-Enclavism calls for a serious of homogenous and semi-autonomous communities that are part of a broader multi-ethnic and multi-cultural patchwork. It encourages neighborhoods to think of themselves as a people with shared bonds and it celebrates and supports existing ethnic and immigrant enclaves. It also calls for those who don’t currently take part in enclavism to emulate diasporas in creating their own enclaves, for building communities based on an identity, for freedom of association as the main principle, for the creation of opt-in groups, places value in people having these groups to help fulfill their personal needs, and opposes primary loyalty to mass society. These enclaves could be based upon an ethnic background but are flexible in that they could be multi-ethnic communities of people with shared values, such as politics, religion, culture, or aesthetic preference. It calls for thinking in terms of an area as a community that serves its residents rather than just a place to live and work with the added benefit of a balance in political and economic power."

So . . . once again you are basically making an argument for the establishment of "semi-autonomous" conservative white homelands. Everyone to their racial bunkers! Sounds like a bad idea.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'd take multiculturalism over both of those options (melting pot and enclavism). Multiculturalism encourages people to celebrate the culture of their home country along side the culture of their adopted country. The goal is to have people of all stripes living side by side, not in enclaves. It's much harder to learn about your adopted country if you live in an enclave so it doesn't mesh with the concept of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism was enshrined in our Constitution in 1982. No one feels pressure to play baseball, eat pancakes, or wear a toque to feel Canadian. What makes you Canadian is having respect for the values and principles set out in the Charter of Rights & Freedoms and becoming a citizen. Immigrants feel Canadian and part of the greater society very quickly. Within 1-2 generations we all end up in the same place any way. We meld together naturally over time.

Such an odd choice of sport. I mean baseball does have long roots in Canada and is one of our traditional sports, but still...

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by ocman

Old enough to remember when enclavism or “mosaic” urban cities, especially when talking about LA, was looked down upon and the melting pot model was held up as being the only model for racial harmony. Now, it’s constantly challenged as being an outdated, very white narrative that didn’t account for input from ethnic minorities who celebrate rather than see problems with ethnic neighborhoods.

I can’t speak for every sector of society but as someone who has worked in healthcare for 28 years, that becomes problematic in healthcare delivery, for both the patient and hospitals. There are some immigrant families who might rarely venture outside their comfort zones or “enclaves” depending upon how tight the enclave community is. When that happens it can lead to economic and educational disparities.

In Western European countries, some Mideast and African immigrant enclaves have become economically isolated in such a way that many of the young men feel at odds with their new home nations.

We can and should embrace immigrant cultures and even regional historical influences without fragmenting our neighborhoods. Now that’s not to say that we need to breakup Chinatowns, the Mexican, Central and South American neighborhoods etc. But “enclaves” are by definition distinct and separate. Separation can and lead to many other problems that include tensions between ethnic and religious groups and as I mentioned above economic disparities.

Neighborhoods are richer when they’re diverse. If that’s a ‘melting pot’ then great.

There’s a reason our motto in the U.S. is “e plu·ri·bus u·num” (out of many) one). And as mottos go, it’s not bad.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'd take multiculturalism over both of those options (melting pot and enclavism). Multiculturalism encourages people to celebrate the culture of their home country along side the culture of their adopted country. The goal is to have people of all stripes living side by side, not in enclaves. It's much harder to learn about your adopted country if you live in an enclave so it doesn't mesh with the concept of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism was enshrined in our Constitution in 1982. No one feels pressure to play baseball, eat pancakes, or wear a toque to feel Canadian. What makes you Canadian is having respect for the values and principles set out in the Charter of Rights & Freedoms and becoming a citizen. Immigrants feel Canadian and part of the greater society very quickly. Within 1-2 generations we all end up in the same place any way. We meld together naturally over time.

Well said.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

I can’t speak for every sector of society but as someone who has worked in healthcare for 28 years, that becomes problematic in healthcare delivery, for both the patient and hospitals. There are some immigrant families who might rarely venture outside their comfort zones or “enclaves” depending upon how tight the enclave community is. When that happens it can lead to economic and educational disparities.

In Western European countries, some Mideast and African immigrant enclaves have become economically isolated in such a way that many of the young men feel at odds with their new home nations.

We can and should embrace immigrant cultures and even regional historical influences without fragmenting our neighborhoods. Now that’s not to say that we need to breakup Chinatowns, the Mexican, Central and South American neighborhoods etc. But “enclaves” are by definition distinct and separate. Separation can and lead to many other problems that include tensions between ethnic and religious groups and as I mentioned above economic disparities.

Neighborhoods are richer when they’re diverse. If that’s a ‘melting pot’ then great.

There’s a reason our motto in the U.S. is “e plu·ri·bus u·num” (out of many) one). And as mottos go, it’s not bad.

Economic disparities aren’t caused by enclavism. Disparities are built in through racial and socioeconomic factors that already exist and that cause ghettoization. It’s the common fallacy of melting potism to undifferentiate ghettos from enclaves. Just as there are poor asian or black communities, there are also wealthy asian and black communities spread about enclave cities like LA. There’s an assumption that certain racial neighborhoods must be ghettos, even if people with means choose to live in a predominantly black neighborhood or asian neighborhood. Cities are richer when they’re diverse. But in enclavism, that diversity is expressed through strong ethnic neighborhoods. It isn’t “richer” because it’s a melting pot. A neighborhood like Leimart Park is a cultural hub for black communities. It’s “rich” because its beacon for black culture, and the food, businesses etc. that go along with that neighborhoods’ strong cultural and ethnic identification.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by ocman

It isn’t “richer” because it’s a melting pot. A neighborhood like Leimart Park is a cultural hub for black communities. It’s “rich” because its beacon for black culture, and the food, businesses etc. that go along with that neighborhoods’ strong cultural and ethnic identification.

Well we agree on a few points and disagree on a few.

But suffice to say that I believe isaidso summed it up perfectly:

” Multiculturalism encourages people to celebrate the culture of their home country along side the culture of their adopted country. The goal is to have people of all stripes living side by side, not in enclaves. It's much harder to learn about your adopted country if you live in an enclave so it doesn't mesh with the concept of multiculturalism.”

There’s nothing else to add.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

Although, at second thought, Americans have always been pathologically obsessed with race/ethnicity, so maybe this has always been this way but now its just supercharged and in your face every waking second.

It is? You mean all of those rich white people with the "We Believe..." signs in their front yard?

Everybody has everything now. Big TVs, air conditioning, in-unit washers and dryers. The way you show status now is to project that you're some sort of Great Understanderer of The Cosmos. Look at me, everybody - I'm one of the good rich people.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1544748673

[JManc]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

It is? You mean all of those rich white people with the "We Believe..." signs in their front yard?

Everybody has everything now. Big TVs, air conditioning, in-unit washers and dryers. The way you show status now is to project that you're some sort of Great Understanderer of The Cosmos. Look at me, everybody - I'm one of the good rich people.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1544748673

lol. These are the same people that have #BLM on their Twitter profile and/or a banner around their FB picture stating they are vaccinated.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I think millennial blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc are more aware and appreciative of their ancestry and cultures that came before them, than ever before. There's a huge push towards language retention, maintaining unique cultural practices, and enclavism that has really picked up in the last 5 years, whereas before I think we were sorta heading towards a melting pot. There has definitely been a paradigm shift largely as a result of a push back from MAGAism.

The same is happening in Brazil: since the mid-2010’s, non-whites are more assertive, challenging the self-serving official narrative that racism is a non-issue in Brazil: it’s as bad as in the US but it’s much harder to be faught as till now many people refused to see it as a problem.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by JManc

lol. These are the same people that have #BLM on their Twitter profile and/or a banner around their FB picture stating they are vaccinated.

The people who say that they are "inclusive" are about the most tribal of all.