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  #3621  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2022, 5:17 PM
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  #3622  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2022, 2:41 PM
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Laïcité pour tous!

Montreal police officers ordered to stop wearing crest of St Michael because it violates secularism law.

https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/774...box=1671104867
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  #3623  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2022, 6:42 PM
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^^Québec is becoming even more ridiculous than France on this issue. Are they also going to ban the flag of Québec because it displays a Christian cross?

Meanwhile France is much more relaxed about its security forces celebrating Christian traditions:

Video Link


Video Link


Video Link


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They do it even in Muslim lands (the gendarme here mentions the "cadis", i.e. traditional Islamic judges, who are still recognized by the French state in Mayotte, and he mentions them in the context of this Christian celebration of French security forces):

Video Link
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  #3624  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2022, 7:53 PM
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What has France to do with it?
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  #3625  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2022, 11:34 PM
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On Tibb's Eve, a lesbian couple we know through our running group joined us. One of them is the child of a military family, MOSTLY from Edmonton but has lived everywhere, before St. John's her home was Montreal. That's where she met her wife, who the rest of us all met for the first time that evening.

The wife is from La Tabatière:



FASCINATING to meet her. Her great-grandparents are from Newfoundland, as is, according to her, the ancestors of everyone along that stretch of Quebec. All anglophones, though many of the younger kids are bilingual. She broke my heart and flattered it explaining why she moved here lol

Montreal was just too much, too big, too overwhelming. She didn't enjoy the lifestyle and wanted to be a "small place" (OUCH ), but she felt at home here right away, and when she moved here, it was only her second time ever here. She came once in high school on a sports thing. I asked her all about Harrington Harbour, since it's in a couple of folk songs here so I was aware of it Just so much fun. My first time meeting anyone from that part of the world.
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  #3626  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
^^Québec is becoming even more ridiculous than France on this issue. Are they also going to ban the flag of Québec because it displays a Christian cross?
At least they're being consistent. If it is truly important to the Quebec government/citizens that public employees be free of any attire that references religion (which IMO is a valid approach that I believe they are sincere about, even if it's probably not what I would do if I were in charge of a province) then having a police force's patches depict specific Christian Saints would be in violation of that. If this is what secularism means to them then this is what secularism means to them. If this were a private security firm and not a public police force, I don't think that would apply.

I'll admit I don't know the exact history of the Quebec flag, but I always just interpreted it as being "divided into four equal parts", and this is ambiguous enough that I don't think it counts as an obvious religious symbol in this context. If they decide they want to come up with a new flag then that's really their own prerogative IMO.
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  #3627  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 1:44 AM
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At least they're being consistent. If it is truly important to the Quebec government/citizens that public employees be free of any attire that references religion (which IMO is a valid approach that I believe they are sincere about, even if it's probably not what I would do if I were in charge of a province) then having a police force's patches depict specific Christian Saints would be in violation of that. If this is what secularism means to them then this is what secularism means to them. If this were a private security firm and not a public police force, I don't think that would apply.

I'll admit I don't know the exact history of the Quebec flag, but I always just interpreted it as being "divided into four equal parts", and this is ambiguous enough that I don't think it counts as an obvious religious symbol in this context. If they decide they want to come up with a new flag then that's really their own prerogative IMO.
Ironic considering that Quebec culture is largely attached to the RC Church to begin with. Eradication of all pertaining to that is a bit of a hollowing out of the culture. I always am shocked at how many town names in Quebec begin with the word Saint. God bless them one and all!

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  #3628  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 6:18 AM
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Ironic considering that Quebec culture is largely attached to the RC Church to begin with. Eradication of all pertaining to that is a bit of a hollowing out of the culture. I always am shocked at how many town names in Quebec begin with the word Saint. God bless them one and all!
My impression is that Quebec functioned more like a colony of the Catholic Church than a colony of France, at least in practice, for most of its history including the first ~100 years of Confederation. It was extremely Catholic and as you mention it was very common to name things after saints or other references to Catholicism. California is also like this (Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, etc) but most of the other states/provinces were Protestant-dominated back when most of the currently-existing cities/towns were being named.

On the other hand I don't think many people would consider 21st century California to be "very Catholic" and I think present-day Quebec is less Catholic than present-day California. AFAIK Quebec is not one of the provinces that has publicly-funded Catholic schools that require kids to pray. I've been to places where cab drivers would do the sign of the cross every time they passed a church, and Quebec is not like that at all. I would say that the Catholic Church is part of its history, but its culture is more defined by its dissociation from the Catholic Church and Catholicism relative to most other places with that many Catholic churches and things named after saints. I could see people wanting to preserve that logo "because it looks badass", but I think this will be a "rules are rules" case.
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  #3629  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 7:18 AM
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My impression is that Quebec functioned more like a colony of the Catholic Church than a colony of France, at least in practice, for most of its history including the first ~100 years of Confederation. It was extremely Catholic and as you mention it was very common to name things after saints or other references to Catholicism. California is also like this (Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, etc) but most of the other states/provinces were Protestant-dominated back when most of the currently-existing cities/towns were being named.

On the other hand I don't think many people would consider 21st century California to be "very Catholic" and I think present-day Quebec is less Catholic than present-day California. AFAIK Quebec is not one of the provinces that has publicly-funded Catholic schools that require kids to pray. I've been to places where cab drivers would do the sign of the cross every time they passed a church, and Quebec is not like that at all. I would say that the Catholic Church is part of its history, but its culture is more defined by its dissociation from the Catholic Church and Catholicism relative to most other places with that many Catholic churches and things named after saints. I could see people wanting to preserve that logo "because it looks badass", but I think this will be a "rules are rules" case.
Oui, but there is a difference. California did not continue to be under Spanish rule, and is only about 15% Catholic today, whereas Quebec is still french culturally, and is at least 75% Catholic, and even more by heritage. Besides, when Americans hear "San" etc. it doesn't linguistically register the same as "Saint". Also, I think you are underestimating the sheer number of french "saint" place names in Quebec, in California the percentage of "san" etc. names would not even be close to that.



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Last edited by Architype; Dec 26, 2022 at 7:45 AM.
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  #3630  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 8:00 AM
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Oui, but there is a difference. California did not continue to be under Spanish rule, and is only about 15% Catholic today, whereas Quebec is still french culturally, and is at least 75% Catholic, and even more by heritage. Besides, when Americans hear "San" etc. it doesn't linguistically register the same as "Saint".
I would say Quebec is culturally Quebecois, not culturally French. Quebec stopped being under French rule about 100 years [edit: closer to 60, my bad] before California stopped being under Spanish rule, so I'm not really sure what you mean there. I would be genuinely surprised if a higher percentage of Quebec's population attends Mass each week compared to California, and Christianity/religion factors significantly more into things like contemporary politics and music much more in the US (including California) than in Canada (including Quebec). I would be even more surprised if at least 75% of Quebec's population believes in God and approves of organized religion, let alone "is Catholic" in any meaningful way.

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Also, I think you are underestimating the sheer number of french "saint" place names in Quebec, in California the percentage of "san" etc. names would not even be close to that.
The percentage of "San" names would be lower, but the percentage of Californians living in cities or towns with obviously Catholic names is higher.

Last edited by Hali87; Dec 26, 2022 at 9:17 AM.
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  #3631  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 8:08 AM
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I would say Quebec is culturally Quebecois, not culturally French. Quebec stopped being under French rule about 100 years before California stopped being under Spanish rule, so I'm not really sure what you mean there. I would be genuinely surprised if a higher percentage of Quebec's population attends Catholic mass each week compared to California. I would be even more surprised if 75% of Quebec's population even believes in God, let alone "is Catholic" in any meaningful way.
Trying to say that "Quebecois" is not as "french" as real "french" is a bit disingenuous. Quebecois is really just another iteration of "french". Check the actual statistics and Quebec is still 54% Catholic* as self identified. Really, I am being truly neutral here, just observing the stats. It's an embedded part of the culture which they are trying to preserve, while pushing the religious reality dust under the rug.

* Stats suggest that in 2011 75% identified as Catholic.
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  #3632  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 9:02 AM
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Quebecois is really just another iteration of "french".
According to whom? I know a lot of people from both Quebec and from France and I don't think any of them would agree with this. Personally I don't think of ROC-Canada as just another iteration of "English", although there's a stronger case there given that Charles is our King and all that.
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  #3633  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 9:07 AM
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Really, I am being truly neutral here, just observing the stats.
Sure, but we're talking about cultures here, and I'm observing the actual cultures.
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  #3634  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 11:54 AM
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Trying to say that "Quebecois" is not as "french" as real "french" is a bit disingenuous. Quebecois is really just another iteration of "french". Check the actual statistics and Quebec is still 54% Catholic* as self identified. Really, I am being truly neutral here, just observing the stats. It's an embedded part of the culture which they are trying to preserve, while pushing the religious reality dust under the rug.

* Stats suggest that in 2011 75% identified as Catholic.
Many if not most there are Catholics in name only. They don't prey, don't go to mass and don't read the Bible and there is a good chance a big chunk of them don't really think there is a God. Secularism became a seious thing there, it is a retrun of the pendulum since religion was very big (and very controlling) beore the 1960's.

Getting rid of religion in day to day life is one thing, trying to rewrite history by renaming things and erasing symbols is another, though.
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  #3635  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 2:11 PM
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Laïcité is definitely a French-derived concept though its Québec version has some variations compared to how it plays out in France. How could it not?

More revealing though how it's such a difficult concept for people who grew up in anglophone cultures to digest. Given that it's a form of social engineering, something that they tend to be allergic to.
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  #3636  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
^^Québec is becoming even more ridiculous than France on this issue. Are they also going to ban the flag of Québec because it displays a Christian cross?

Meanwhile France is much more relaxed about its security forces celebrating Christian traditions:

Video Link


Video Link


Video Link


Video Link


They do it even in Muslim lands (the gendarme here mentions the "cadis", i.e. traditional Islamic judges, who are still recognized by the French state in Mayotte, and he mentions them in the context of this Christian celebration of French security forces):

Video Link
I have police in my closest family and among friends, many of them Catholic, and Î have never heard of the cross in that article.

My guess is that this is a fairly new thing that some cops here started doing either due to American or other influences.

It is not an old tradition like the one in France probably is. If it was there would probably be more of a debate in favour of keeping it out of tradition, like the cross on Mount Royal.

BTW when I travelled the world my mom used to slip a small medallion of St Christophe in my suitcase.
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  #3637  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 7:21 PM
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What has France to do with it?
If you don't get that "laïcité" was (recently) imported to Québec from France, then you get nothing about this situation. Alas Québec seems to have imported the worst of French secularism, without all the shades of gray that do exist in France (crosses allowed in courts in Alsace and Moselle, Catholic clerics still stipended by the French state in French Guiana, French Minister of the Interior also being Minister of the Cults, patron saints of various corporations still celebrated, Catholic saints still mentioned daily in the weather forecast on public French televisions, religious Islamic judges in Mayotte recognized by the French state, etc).
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  #3638  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 7:52 PM
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I'll admit I don't know the exact history of the Quebec flag, but I always just interpreted it as being "divided into four equal parts"
No, the flag is based on the Cross of St Michael, which was the most venerated French saint (think Mont Saint Michel in Normandy). The Cross of St Michael was used by French merchant ships as a French standard, and was a sort of unofficial flag of France.

Duplessis then added 4 fleurs de lis to the old flag of St Michael (the one that was basically used in French Canada when it was under French sovereignty), and voilà, there you have your Québec flag.

Let's also note that the blue color is a reference to the Virgin Mary (whose dress was supposed to be blue). The white color is a reference to the French monarchy (white was the color of the French kings). That also explains the blue and white in the flag of France (the red color in the French flag is a reference both to the coat of arms of Paris and to the standard of St Denis, which the French kings hoisted when they went to war during the early Middle Ages).

In this painting from the 18th century, we can see to the right the flag of St Michael flown by a French merchant ship (the ship to the left belongs to the French Royal Navy and displays the white flag of the king; merchant ships didn't have the right to display the white flag of the king, theirs was the cross of St Michael).



The Ecole Navale in Brest still possess in their museum a standard of the French merchant fleet from before the French Revolution:



Since France, in the days of French Canada, didn't have an official flag (like most countries), and only had naval standards, Duplessis basically decided to use the standard of the French merchant ships (he didn't use the standard of the French Royal Navy because the white flag has now found another use since the 19th century, for surrenders, truces, and parleys).

In parenthesis, I find the flag of Québec to be one of the most beautiful in the world. Better than the current French flag even (in fact if France had remained a monarchy, the flag of Québec could totally have been the flag of France).
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  #3639  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 8:03 PM
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My impression is that Quebec functioned more like a colony of the Catholic Church than a colony of France, at least in practice, for most of its history including the first ~100 years of Confederation.
That was true after the British conquered Canada, but not before. Under French rule, the Catholic church played an important role in Québec, but no more than in France proper (or any other Catholic country at the time). French civil institutions played an equally important role.

What happened is after the British conquest, all French civil institutions disappeared, replaced by British (English in fact) civil institutions and civil servants, so the French Canadians had only the Catholic church to defend their culture and their rights, and they sort of "retreated" into the Catholic church for more than 150 years. It is only after civil institutions were again fully Frenchified after the Révolution tranquille that there was less of a need to find support in the Catholic church, and so the population quickly detached itself from the Catholic church (all the more quickly because it corresponded to the period of 'sexual liberation' imported from the US and Europe, 1968 and all that stuff).
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  #3640  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 8:18 PM
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BTW when I travelled the world my mom used to slip a small medallion of St Christophe in my suitcase.
Ah, you still see that in France. Some people glue a medallion of St Christophe in their car just above the radio. My grandfather used to do that.

Spaniards are much more into this than the French though. In Spain you can still see people who cross themselves before driving. I was in Spain last month where we met a 75 y/o friend, and just before I started the engine of the car she crossed herself, that made me chuckle. So Spanish!

In France, however, a tradition that is still very much alive is being fêted (and receiving presents) on your saint's day. Many people still do it, and it's like a 2nd birthday. I, unfortunately, have the misfortune of having my saint's day on December 26, the day just after Christmas, so I've never received any present on my saint's day.
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