HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #6141  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 5:27 PM
SoCalKid SoCalKid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 444
I rode the E (Expo) Line to and from a Lakers game the other night and the trains were packed. Good to see the ridership, but Metro really needs to run more frequent trains at night, especially after games and events. Every 20 minutes when you have fans flooding the station from the stadium just doesn't cut it.

Overall the experience was fine, but it's just frustrating because Metro could be so much better if anyone in power actually cared. We stopped at a bunch of red lights and waited for 1-2 minutes each time which was very annoying. It probably slowed the trip down by 10 minutes in total. Maybe the signal prioritization work they did helped a little, but LADOT and Metro could do so much more. The crazy thing is that we were only 2-3 minutes late despite all those stops, so it's built into the schedule. If we got real signal preemption, the end-to-end trip could probably get under 40 minutes, which would be a game changer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6142  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 6:15 PM
sopas ej's Avatar
sopas ej sopas ej is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Pasadena, California
Posts: 6,847
A little blurb about the Regional Connector but I guess it's on the rumor mill that it'll open on May 5th: https://la.streetsblog.org/2023/02/1...eadlines-3620/

If that's the case, I was hoping it would open at least a month earlier, in time for the Festival of Books on the USC campus, which is usually in mid/late April.

I haven't been to the Little Tokyo area lately, but has anyone noticed if pre-revenue testing has been going on at the portals to the Regional Connector tunnel?
__________________
"I guess the only time people think about injustice is when it happens to them."

~ Charles Bukowski
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6143  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 7:00 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalKid View Post
Every 20 minutes when you have fans flooding the station from the stadium just doesn't cut it.
In Boston, the MBTA stages several green line trolleys during Red Sox games in anticipation of the crowd flooding out. Fenway is located right where several lines diverge, so fans leave in all directions. They have trolleys staged for both the inbound and outbound directions.

Quote:
Maybe the signal prioritization work they did helped a little, but LADOT and Metro could do so much more.
It always seemed to me that signal prioritization ought to be nearly universal, except at the most complicated grade crossings, off-peak.

Last edited by jmecklenborg; Feb 14, 2023 at 9:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6144  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 8:05 PM
SoCalKid SoCalKid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
It always seemed to me that signal prioritization ought to be nearly universal, except at the most complicated grade crossings, off-peak.
Agreed, I think there should be full preemption of every signal except Vermont and the pedestrian crossings adjacent to it, and 12th street. Hopefully Pico and 12th street get grade separated as part of the 28 by 28 project, then longer run I think extending the the USC tunnel/trench past Vermont is necessary, especially with all of the upgrades coming to Expo park. If you did the above, I'm confident the travel time would be below 40 minutes which would be competitive with driving most times of day.

The Gold line in Boyle Heights/East LA needs similar treatment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6145  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2023, 5:32 AM
ocman ocman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Burlingame
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
There are a lot of hotels near lax though
I don’t see many people staying at an airport hotel especially when there are hotels in better areas and have free shuttle to LAX anyway. Also it would be competing against the K line which would split those few riders even more. you’d be spending 5+billion dollars for something almost exclusively for tourists and used only on game/concert days.

If they were going to expand the people mover, I’d rather they skip LAX and go south instead and connect with the metro green line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6146  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2023, 6:48 AM
TowerDude TowerDude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 296
When is construction of the Union Station through tracks going to start?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6147  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2023, 7:01 PM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
Just returned from London and Paris… wow, those are amazing cities with equally amazing rail systems. In Paris, “walking distance” is essentially 5 minutes (from a Metro station, for which they have radial maps in the stations).

Paris has one of the best and most effective metros on Earth, no doubt. Some takeaways from my experience that apply to the Sepulveda line:

1) Paris runs small train sets that are probably no longer than 300-feet-long, with the carriages themselves being very narrow in profile. Even with short headways, I and I think all riders would prefer to be able to hop on the first train seen upon entering the station instead of having to wait for the next one. This is why I’m in favor of A6.

2) All the stations that I passed through had side platforms. While I think this feature, just like elevated alignments and automated trains, would be a nice departure from what we are used to, center platforms are more efficient if a rider accidentally travels in the wrong direction or needs to go back to their station of origin for some reason.

3) Off-peak headways should still be no more than 10 minutes, and even that’s too long for, say, 8-10 p.m. That we have 20-minute headways starting at 8 p.m. is a joke.

4) We take ADA-mandated elevator access for granted.

5) Paris uses small ticket stubs, which is great for the environment (better paper than plastic and the less paper the better). Disappointing that I couldn’t just use Apple Pay like I did with the London Underground… no Oyster Card for me.

6) Not Paris but London. The Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express. Fantastic. And many/most stations having THREE escalators. Granted, it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison, as most (older) Tube stations only have stairwell access to platforms once you reach the mezzanine level. Our subway station entrances have two escalators and two sets of stairs going down to the mezzanine. There’s certainly enough space for another pair of escalators going up/down. Thoughts on having escalator/stair option?

7) At-grade LRT like the A/E (Blue/Expo) Lines along Flower has no place in a big, sprawling city, especially one trying to woo riders out of their cars. You can justify the high construction costs for subway if you build “creative” alignments (or ones that can only be served by subway such as phase 2 of the Purple Line extension) that don’t run completely parallel to freeways. That’s how you get riders, but the price is high… and worth it.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner

Last edited by Quixote; Feb 18, 2023 at 7:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6148  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2023, 4:38 AM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
2) All the stations that I passed through had side platforms. While I think this feature, just like elevated alignments and automated trains, would be a nice departure from what we are used to, center platforms are more efficient if a rider accidentally travels in the wrong direction or needs to go back to their station of origin for some reason.
All things equal, in a typical North American subway, center platforms are cheaper - fewer elevators/escalators to maintain, and you can route all the passengers past a single operator booth for security/surveillance.

Of course, if you do a shallow cut/cover subway and skip the mezzanine level, then side platforms are much cheaper. This is how most of the Paris Metro is built - instead of mezzanines, they have crossunder passages below the tracks IIRC - but modern subways will be bored and deeper (although North American subways go too deep).

Also, center platforms really work best if you have separate tunnels for each direction (as the Purple Line Extension is doing). If you want to take advantage of a single bore, then you're gonna end up with side platforms.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6149  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2023, 2:34 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,134
^and in NYC, there are a number of places where there are side platforms and island platforms to either side of a single track, creating a 10-foot gap that can be jumped.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6150  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 3:03 PM
202_Cyclist's Avatar
202_Cyclist 202_Cyclist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,913
Related to this discussion, this article might be of interest.

Want More Trains and Subways? Build Smaller Stations
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...aller-stations
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6151  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 3:21 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist View Post
Related to this discussion, this article might be of interest.

Want More Trains and Subways? Build Smaller Stations
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...aller-stations
Bad example.

NYC runs 600-foot trains, meaning a station box is often 700+ feet long. There is no option to run shorter trains in New York without building a line completely independent of the rest of the system. Plus, very large stations with multiple sidewalk entrances mean a shorter walk for subway riders. Two entrances for the same station can be 2+ blocks from each other in NYC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6152  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 3:29 PM
Busy Bee's Avatar
Busy Bee Busy Bee is offline
Show me the blueprints
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: on the artistic spectrum
Posts: 10,302
As far as modern bored tunnel subway in NYC goes the mined station box actually has to be 1000' due to the need for double crossovers at each end. These diamond crossovers are actually within the station excavation not a seperate tunneled connection further down the running tunnels. Obviously tgey have determined this is the most cost effective way of doing it so expect any and all future station boxes to remain 1000' minimum length. Whether enormous full length mezzanines are really needed is up for debate.
__________________
Everything new is old again

There is no goodness in him, and his power to convince people otherwise is beyond understanding
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6153  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 3:33 PM
Busy Bee's Avatar
Busy Bee Busy Bee is offline
Show me the blueprints
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: on the artistic spectrum
Posts: 10,302
...
__________________
Everything new is old again

There is no goodness in him, and his power to convince people otherwise is beyond understanding
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6154  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 7:12 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
As far as modern bored tunnel subway in NYC goes the mined station box actually has to be 1000' due to the need for double crossovers at each end. These diamond crossovers are actually within the station excavation not a seperate tunneled connection further down the running tunnels. Obviously tgey have determined this is the most cost effective way of doing it so expect any and all future station boxes to remain 1000' minimum length. Whether enormous full length mezzanines are really needed is up for debate.
Do each of the new Second Ave. stations have crossovers at each end? Is this decadent setup required at all new stations? There are certainly many examples of stations within the system that don't have a crossover at either end.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6155  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 7:26 PM
Busy Bee's Avatar
Busy Bee Busy Bee is offline
Show me the blueprints
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: on the artistic spectrum
Posts: 10,302
^ North and south of 72 and south of 96 (currently).

A bored subway like SAS is going to have more crossovers due to running tunnels not being connected down line and, unlike the old cut and cover subway lines (with crossovers to express tracks that can be used to bypass stations in a service event), in order to maintain service more flexibility needs to be provided to move trains from one side of the center platform to the other. A double crossover after each platform end is also seen at 34/Hudson Yds.
__________________
Everything new is old again

There is no goodness in him, and his power to convince people otherwise is beyond understanding
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6156  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 11:28 PM
WrightCONCEPT's Avatar
WrightCONCEPT WrightCONCEPT is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist View Post
Related to this discussion, this article might be of interest.

Want More Trains and Subways? Build Smaller Stations
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...aller-stations
Interesting opinion piece that begins to scratch the surface on the public Gold Platting public infrastructure projects.

The Boston example cited is a good one and one that breaks down the Environmental process where so many other things are added that can make a break a projects budget and the reality is that the bulk of the cost of that project should have been and was the widening and re-configuring of two existing operating commuter rail right of ways to fit nearly 5 miles of new trolley tracks, stations and a new trolley yard.

However it is not as simplistic of just building smaller stations. How NYC does it with such a large network makes sense (tedious as it may sound) because that system is busy 24/7 getting that suggested crane to shut down the system just to replace light bulbs is rather dumb because there is an operational cost to the lack of infrastructure or the lack of crossovers after stations in case a train breaks down.

I see it here in LA when they start maintenance shut downs at 9pm to do things like replace broken light bulbs and pick up garbage on the tracks and run single track service that can make the rail network a pain in the ass because there aren't any crossovers in the Downtown tunnel other than Union Station and Westlake Stations a distance of over 3 miles.

Vancouver with its Canada Line may regret not going with longer platforms once they extend their Skytrain down Broadway to Aritbus and UBC.
__________________
"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination." -Vin Scully

The Opposite of PRO is CON, that fact is clearly seen.
If Progress means moves forward, then what does Congress mean?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6157  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 11:31 PM
WrightCONCEPT's Avatar
WrightCONCEPT WrightCONCEPT is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
As far as modern bored tunnel subway in NYC goes the mined station box actually has to be 1000' due to the need for double crossovers at each end. These diamond crossovers are actually within the station excavation not a separate tunneled connection further down the running tunnels. Obviously they have determined this is the most cost effective way of doing it so expect any and all future station boxes to remain 1000' minimum length. Whether enormous full length mezzanines are really needed is up for debate.
That's a great point because they are digging out the boxes anyways why not extract as much useful operational space as they can. There with SAS they made the right choice.
__________________
"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination." -Vin Scully

The Opposite of PRO is CON, that fact is clearly seen.
If Progress means moves forward, then what does Congress mean?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6158  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 3:53 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightCONCEPT View Post
That's a great point because they are digging out the boxes anyways why not extract as much useful operational space as they can. There with SAS they made the right choice.
I'm unconvinced that the station size, extra entrances, mezzanines, etc. are the real cause of the high costs.

I think these people underestimate the sheer complexity of building new subway lines in a city that already has about twenty of them, plus many other types of tunnels. I suspect that few places remain in Manhattan where a cut-and-cover subway tunnel of any length is a practical alternative to deep bores.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6159  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 6:23 AM
WrightCONCEPT's Avatar
WrightCONCEPT WrightCONCEPT is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I'm unconvinced that the station size, extra entrances, mezzanines, etc. are the real cause of the high costs.

I think these people underestimate the sheer complexity of building new subway lines in a city that already has about twenty of them, plus many other types of tunnels. I suspect that few places remain in Manhattan where a cut-and-cover subway tunnel of any length is a practical alternative to deep bores.
It is a factor in it, but in the case of NYC SAS the most important piece important to tunneling is soil type. The more difficult the soil or harder the granite the more expensive it is to tunnel and mine.
__________________
"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination." -Vin Scully

The Opposite of PRO is CON, that fact is clearly seen.
If Progress means moves forward, then what does Congress mean?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6160  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:26 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
cle/west village/shaolin
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I'm unconvinced that the station size, extra entrances, mezzanines, etc. are the real cause of the high costs.

I think these people underestimate the sheer complexity of building new subway lines in a city that already has about twenty of them, plus many other types of tunnels. I suspect that few places remain in Manhattan where a cut-and-cover subway tunnel of any length is a practical alternative to deep bores.
phase 2 second ave will use cut and cover for the new station sections:


Construction work will include:

Modification and use of the existing tunnel sections beneath Second Avenue that were built in the 1970s
Cut-and-cover construction for 106th Street Station and 116th Street Station to connect to the existing tunnel sections
Mined tunnel constructed below-ground using a Tunnel Boring Machine from Second Avenue at 120th Street to 125th Street near Lenox Avenue; mined construction of 125th Street Station
Excavation and above-ground construction for all station entrances and ancillary buildings
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:54 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.