DETROIT | Hudson's Detroit | 685 FT & 240 FT | 49 & 14 FLOORS

[pianowizard]

Gilbert was worth $51.9B last year but only $16.7B now:

https://www.forbes.com/profile/danie...h=3924f21e7128

[The North One]

Again, everything gets this tax break. From smaller apartment developments to mega projects like the train station. Ford got about double from the city what Gilbert is asking and the MCS investment is just one billion, compared to Hudson's 1.4 . Because the tax policy is fucked.

If they didn't give it to him, it would just be a slap in the face, a middle finger to Bedrock for no fucking reason.

Also none of this property tax money would ever go to schools, it goes to the DDA, it stays in downtown Detroit to incentive more development... so what is the crying about here??

If yall hate seeing this workaround they do so much maybe contact your council member and tell them to reform the taxes.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by The North One

Again, everything gets this tax break. From smaller apartment developments to mega projects like the train station. Ford got about double from the city what Gilbert is asking and the MCS investment is just one billion, compared to Hudson's 1.4 . Because the tax policy is fucked.

If they didn't give it to him, it would just be a slap in the face, a middle finger to Bedrock for no fucking reason.

Also none of this property tax money would ever go to schools, it goes to the DDA, it stays in downtown Detroit to incentive more development... so what is the crying about here??

If yall hate seeing this workaround they do so much maybe contact your council member and tell them to reform the taxes.

The issue here is that the tax break is (seemingly) to maintain a profit and is unrelated to the construction costs. Or if it is related to construction costs, Bedrock could just get more/bigger loans. Otherwise, it's just free money for them that doesn't provide any return to the taxpayers.

Also, I'm not necessarily opposed to flipping the bird to profitable companies asking for free handouts. If they're not making a profit, then that's just business.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

The issue here is that the tax break is (seemingly) to maintain a profit and is unrelated to the construction costs. Or if it is related to construction costs, Bedrock could just get more/bigger loans. Otherwise, it's just free money for them that doesn't provide any return to the taxpayers.

So you know there's probably good reasons they're doing this, like debt financing, possible new financing in the future. The taxpayers (or ehh, the DDA) are getting a lot more regardless. Just looking at the property tax, even with the incentive it goes up from a couple hundred thousand a year to over 2 million. Meanwhile the city gets a treasure chest in income taxes and those are taxes that actually go services for the city. It's not necessarily free money if the property taxes were unreasonable in the first place.

Also, I'm not necessarily opposed to flipping the bird to profitable companies asking for free handouts. If they're not making a profit, then that's just business.

I'm sorry but, LOL. Why on earth would the city ever even consider flipping the bird to the biggest cash cow and best powerful friend Detroit has ever seen? Maybe any city in America has ever seen?

He has invested literal billions of dollars of his own personal money into Detroit. Created over 20,000 high paying jobs. Donating half a billion dollars of philanthropy into neighborhoods across the city. Basically made miracles happen here. Nobody else would have ever done this. The city would have to be really brain-dead and suicidal to ruin that relationship over a comparatively petty 60 million spread across ten years in the future, and when it's already giving those subsidies out like candy to anybody who wants them anyway. Fucking that up would hurt the people of the city more than any other decision they could make.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by The North One

So you know there's probably good reasons they're doing this, like debt financing, possible new financing in the future. The taxpayers (or ehh, the DDA) are getting a lot more regardless. Just looking at the property tax, even with the incentive it goes up from a couple hundred thousand a year to over 2 million. Meanwhile the city gets a treasure chest in income taxes and those are taxes that actually go services for the city. It's not necessarily free money if the property taxes were unreasonable in the first place.

I wouldn't move into a pig pen just to complain that it's dirty.

I'm sorry but, LOL. Why on earth would the city ever even consider flipping the bird to the biggest cash cow and best powerful friend Detroit has ever seen? Maybe any city in America has ever seen?

He has invested literal billions of dollars of his own personal money into Detroit. Created over 20,000 high paying jobs. Donating half a billion dollars of philanthropy into neighborhoods across the city. Basically made miracles happen here. Nobody else would have ever done this. The city would have to be really brain-dead and suicidal to ruin that relationship over a comparatively petty 60 million spread across ten years in the future, and when it's already giving those subsidies out like candy to anybody who wants them anyway. Fucking that up would hurt the people of the city more than any other decision they could make.

"We don't want to alienate our business owners... yada yada yada". The numbers and names may change but we've all heard these sales pitches before. It's a moot point.

[MAC123]

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...-hudsons-site/

He has withdrawn the request for the tax abatement.

Bedrock withdraws $60M tax abatement request for Detroit Hudson’s site
Ken Haddad, Digital Content Manager

Published: June 28, 2022, 11:08 AM

DETROIT – Dan Gilbert’s Bedrock has withdrawn its request for a $60 million tax abatement from the City of Detroit for the company’s Hudson’s site development, with plans to bring it back up at a later time.

Detroit City Council was set to take up the issue at a meeting on Tuesday. It was unclear if Bedrock had the votes for approval.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

"We don't want to alienate our business owners... yada yada yada". The numbers and names may change but we've all heard these sales pitches before. It's a moot point.

No it's not a moot point, this situation is extremely special and you're well aware of that. This isn't some shitty sports stadium or warehouse and it's not even just this project. It's mega billions and thousands of high paying jobs for generations, thousands of great union jobs right now, thousands of housing units, it's capital that would never be flowing through here if it was left up to traditional sources or in the hands of any other entity.

This is a born and bred, fully dedicated Detroiter. Literally self financing giant investments himself and not afraid to take a loss. Behavior that's been unheard of since the civic minded days of the Rockefellers. Behavior clearly not motivated by money.

Frankly, he deserves whatever the hell he asks from the city on a silver platter, and that's just the truth. He's given this city everything and then some on top of it, gone above and beyond.

I wouldn't move into a pig pen just to complain that it's dirty.

I don't get your point here, so they should have never tried to developed anything because he knew of the busted taxes? Yes that would have been a wonderful outcome for the city...

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by The North One

No it's not a moot point, this situation is extremely special and you're well aware of that. This isn't some shitty sports stadium or warehouse and it's not even just this project. It's mega billions and thousands of high paying jobs for generations, thousands of great union jobs right now, thousands of housing units, it's capital that would never be flowing through here if it was left up to traditional sources or in the hands of any other entity.

What I'd consider "extremely special" about this project is that it's the most visible prime location in the city and is potentially skyline changing. If anything, the most valuable thing about the project is its hype and the perceptions it brings (or could change). Beyond the hype, however, it's like any other construction project.

This is a born and bred, fully dedicated Detroiter. Literally self financing giant investments himself and not afraid to take a loss. Behavior that's been unheard of since the civic minded days of the Rockefellers. Behavior clearly not motivated by money.

Frankly, he deserves whatever the hell he asks from the city on a silver platter, and that's just the truth. He's given this city everything and then some on top of it, gone above and beyond.

No he doesn't. The city doesn't owe him anything other than the services it already provides to all its citizens. The "generosity" he gives in the form of investments is just that, "generosity". If he expects a reward then maybe someone might think it nice enough to make him a statute.

I don't get your point here, so they should have never tried to developed anything because he knew of the busted taxes? Yes that would have been a wonderful outcome for the city...

No, if his motivation is not to make a profit, then don't complain about things that might affect potential profits... like taxes. Which isn't even that much.

The city is much bigger than 1 or 2 blocks, several miles, or even all of its neighborhoods combined. But to say Dan Gilbert can determine the path of Detroit one way or other for what he does or doesn't do is, I think, really narrow-minded.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

What I'd consider "extremely special" about this project is that it's the most visible prime location in the city and is potentially skyline changing. If anything, the most valuable thing about the project is its hype and the perceptions it brings (or could change). Beyond the hype, however, it's like any other construction project.

Hardly, this is easily one the highest quality tower projects in the country right now if not the highest. The street interaction is impeccable, the materials are as good as it gets today and very expensive, the mixed use programming is something 95% of developers will never even attempt to do, parking is entirely underground. We are incredibly spoiled to have Bedrock. Do you know what people build in other cities? Utterly hideous parking podium fortresses that are single use, maybe two use if you're lucky. They could have done that here way faster and much cheaper. But they know Detroit is better than that.


The economic boost to the city is huge. Again there's thousands of union workers on this site, many of them city residents. Will be huge money for the city to tax on the high paying white collar jobs, service workers and housing.

And I meant more the situation is special, him and what he's willing to do in the city and the resources they have. The funnel of capital and the continued investment of capital in the future.

No he doesn't. The city doesn't owe him anything other than the services it already provides to all its citizens. The "generosity" he gives in the form of investments is just that, "generosity". If he expects a reward then maybe someone might think it nice enough to make him a statute.

You can feel differently, but in terms of what has been given and taken. It's objective who's getting way more out of the situation (the city and it's people). He has saved this city's ass on multiple occasions (like fail jail for example). I'm not even sure it would be possible to fully quantify the impact they've made on the city with all the spinoff activity and projects that you can trace back to him. Like do you honestly think Ford would be doing the train station if it wasn't for Gilbert's initial investments? None of what they've accomplished would have happened with a traditional developer, debt finance setup. It simply would have never happened. And for that the city will always owe him at least symbolically. To pretend that goodwill means nothing and there's nothing to appreciate here and what they've brought to the city is pretty callous.

It's not really about a "reward" either, it's about the city doing the absolute bare minimum in keeping the great things coming. And it would be a disservice to the residents to hinder that in any way.

No, if his motivation is not to make a profit, then don't complain about things that might affect potential profits... like taxes. Which isn't even that much.

The city is much bigger than 1 or 2 blocks, several miles, or even all of its neighborhoods combined. But to say Dan Gilbert can determine the path of Detroit one way or other for what he does or doesn't do is, I think, really narrow-minded.

I think you may have already forgotten what 2007 Detroit and it's reality was like before they moved into city limits and started dumping huge amounts of cash here.

Sure, he's not the single sole factor. But to act like he's not the biggest factor and not the one who catalyzed the momentum in the city today is just flat out ignorance. Nobody wants to move to a city with a busted abandoned city core, having a strong center was/is absolutely critical to all the other square miles of Detroit and does play a huge role in the whole city's path.

He can not be motivated by profit and there still be a need for the tax breaks. He's working with banks (who are motivated by profit and nothing else, which he cant control). I highly doubt they care about 60 million, it's about finance. And ultimately, all the money goes right back into the city anyway.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by The North One

Hardly, this is easily one the highest quality tower projects in the country right now if not the highest.

It's an extremely nice project, but I think you are overrating it just a bit here. Put it in NYC or even Chicago and nobody would even realize it's being built. Heck, even Boston has 5 comparable new towers to this in both size and quality since 2016. It might be transcendent for Detroit, but if built in many other large US cities would just be in the "very good" category. Now if it was still over 900' that would be a totally different story, but it isn't.

Edit: To be fair, I do think this building is awesome. But I'm also here because I think buildings in general are awesome. It's in the upper tier of buildings being built in the US but it has some company.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by The North One

I think you may have already forgotten what 2007 Detroit and it's reality was like before they moved into city limits and started dumping huge amounts of cash here.

No, I have a pretty vivid memory of when Compuware built their HQ and the excitement around that. I guess the year that took place is kind of irrelevant since that's the BG (Before Gilbert) times. Before we were all graced with His ability to to water into wine... or at least lukewarm pop.

[edale]

So they rescinded the request for the tax abatement. Does that mean the tower design will be altered?

[The North One]

Originally Posted by DZH22

It's an extremely nice project, but I think you are overrating it just a bit here. Put it in NYC or even Chicago and nobody would even realize it's being built. Heck, even Boston has 5 comparable new towers to this in both size and quality since 2016. It might be transcendent for Detroit, but if built in many other large US cities would just be in the "very good" category. Now if it was still over 900' that would be a totally different story, but it isn't.

Edit: To be fair, I do think this building is awesome. But I'm also here because I think buildings in general are awesome. It's in the upper tier of buildings being built in the US but it has some company.

Boston has nothing comparable to this right now. Winthrop Square got value engineered to death. One congress is also nothing special, basic glass tower, looks like a casino. South station is another basic office tower, basic materials.

The height is nothing crazy, of course. But the quality of literally everything else is superb, there is nothing comparable outside of New York. Which is why the project is costing a ridiculous amount of money. This would be a special jewel in any North American city.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by edale

So they rescinded the request for the tax abatement. Does that mean the tower design will be altered?

No. They didn't actually rescind it, they're negotiating terms with council. City will likely get more affordable housing out of it. Which ironically would benefit the city residents way more than property taxes going to the DDA.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by The North One

Boston has nothing comparable to this right now. Winthrop Square got value engineered to death.

Yeah and this one didn't? What happened to the extra 227'? Glass looks great on Winthrop by the way, especially with the pinstripe effect. Cladding on Hudson is still unproven.

Originally Posted by The North One

One congress is also nothing special, basic glass tower, looks like a casino.

This is the most negative reaction to date for One Congress. Most people drool a puddle over it. Glass is amazing. While it's a bit shorter at 611', when combined with the ~535' residential tower it creates a superior overall complex than Hudson.

Originally Posted by The North One

South station is another basic office tower, basic materials.

Probably right, design is kind of whatever, but at 677' is right there with this one and cladding is currently unknown.

Then there's 1 Dalton (2019), which has out-of-this-world quality glass and better height ~750' and proportions, and Millennium Tower (2016) which is the exact same height at 685', likely better proportioned although that depends on the angle, and also has extremely high quality glass.

Here's the direct comparison. One Congress is drawn slightly short as the fin reaches 611', and 1 Dalton is more likely to be just over 750' than it is 742' (yeah we have problems figuring out actual heights in Boston). I included The Sudbury because it pairs with One Congress as part of the same complex. Hudson fits in nicely, but there's really no proof it's going to be any higher quality or design until we see the finished product.

BvD by David Z, on Flickr

Besides just defending my own city's honor, I found a couple newer articles related to the tax breaks.

First I found this one, which apparently is from a socialist website so needs to be taken with a grain of salt (or even like, a salt-shaker worth of salt).
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../fmkb-j02.html

They don't like him very much, but to be honest socialists don't really like any businesspeople. I think it's due to their lack of understanding of how value is created, and only focusing on how the "pie" is proportionally divided rather than on actually growing the pie itself. So on second look the article is about 100x stupider than I thought when I originally read it, but figure it's worth a share.

The other one is related to what it will take for the government to give out this next tax break.
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/26568...son-s-benefits

The biggest takeaway is changing from 20% affordable units to 30%. From what I can tell this will have 120 residential condos, so instead of making 24/120 affordable they will have to make 36/120.

My personal thoughts are that forcing any "affordable" units into new construction at all is kind of bs, because it helps so few people who essentially win the housing lottery while everybody else gets stuck paying (an even higher) market rate. It often leads to a dearth in overall units built compared to demand, plus the market-rate payers have to essentially cover the shortfalls from the affordable units. In my city I think there's like 50,000 people on the waiting list so the vast majority of them will be hurt by these policies, as not enough units are built overall so the market rate continues to be out of reach for those who don't win this housing lottery.

[Lincolnlover2005]

Originally Posted by rgarri4

I have Pro at work. I could do a mock up tomorrow.

Scrolling through the forums and found this, saw the 3D Warehouse didn't have one so I present to you, the Hudson's Tower!

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mod.../Hudsons-Tower

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by DZH22

This is the most negative reaction to date for One Congress. Most people drool a puddle over it. Glass is amazing. While it's a bit shorter at 611', when combined with the ~535' residential tower it creates a superior overall complex than Hudson.

Yeah, I actually think One Congress is quite nice. Definitely an excellent addition to the skyline and would look great in any skyline. Not really a fan of the "State Street" logo though. Whether or not it's superior to the Hudson remains to be seen I think. I do think the residential tower detracts from it as well. That part was not well done.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I do think the residential tower detracts from it as well. That part was not well done.

I think it looks great. Very metallic looking.
https://archboston.com/community/thr...r.5422/page-62

[The North One]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Yeah and this one didn't? What happened to the extra 227'? Glass looks great on Winthrop by the way, especially with the pinstripe effect. Cladding on Hudson is still unproven.

Well we have seen the mockup/samples so I wouldn't say it's unproven. Overall Hudson's really hasn't been value engineered that much, they've kept all the expensive materials and main components.

Look I don't really care to argue any of this. Love Boston, been there myself, love the new construction. My point is just that this project is very much not typical. Any city would count themselves very lucky to have it.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by The North One

Well we have seen the mockup/samples so I wouldn't say it's unproven. Overall Hudson's really hasn't been value engineered that much, they've kept all the expensive materials and main components.

Look I don't really care to argue any of this. Love Boston, been there myself, love the new construction. My point is just that this project is very much not typical. Any city would count themselves very lucky to have it.

Boston would be lucky to have it too. We just happen to be in a bit of a renaissance where we end up with essentially 5 of them. We also went 40 years between 200 meter buildings, before this boom which will end up bringing us 4 more (from 2 to 6). Frankly, what we really could use more than anything would be the 912' version of this.

Fun little tidbit, Cleveland's Key Tower was originally proposed in Hartford as the Society Center at 700'. So if this one somehow falls through, feel free to send the 912' plans our way and we'll be happy to even that score between the Midwest and New England.